InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "grandpa nugget on the bus"

richardak (richardak) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-19 17:50:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, creator: joe staton, creator: joey cavalieri, publisher: dc comics

Further Evidence that Huntress is Better at Stealth than Batman....

Some people were unpersuaded by my previous scans showing Huntress being better at stealth than Batman. Their disagreement seemed to be based not on the presentation of counter-examples, but on the contention that the evidence I had presented was not sufficient to prove my case. Now, it is of course a fact of life that everyone must decide for himself what constitutes sufficient evidence; what constitutes sufficient evidence for one person may not for another. Hopefully, though, this additional evidence will persuade a few more people.

To explain the context, a criminal named Rage is uniting the street gangs that control Helena's neighborhood and getting them to stop fighting. Batman wants to stop him, lest Rage make the gangs more powerful, while Huntress is afraid that if Rage is removed, open gang warfare will do too much collateral damage.

Note that she's below and in front of him at the end of page twenty.

Not only did she detect him, but she was then able to get above and behind him without being noticed in return. In any case, they then talk to each other and explain their respective positions, but come to no resolution. The next night, Batman makes another attempt on Rage:

As you can see, it pretty much ends up the same way.

This time, they eventually agree to work together to stop Rage without reigniting the gang war.

So this should add to the weight of evidence, although I don't doubt that many people will still be unpersuaded. After all, stealth is one of Batman's signature attributes. His sudden appearances and disappearances, made without warning, often in the middle of a conversation, are something of a trademark for him.

But to my mind, that very fact makes this evidence all the stronger. When writers deliberately choose to show another character getting the best of Batman in this regard, they do so knowing that they are reversing the position Batman usually finds himself in, and thereby subverting readers' expectations.

That being said, I would certainly have to reevaluate my position were I presented with counter-examples, i.e., instances of Batman proving stealthier than the Huntress. The clearer and more numerous the examples, the more powerful the rebuttal, of course.

(Post a new comment)

	halloweenjack 2009-06-19 05:24 pm UTC (link)
	Man, that is one bad case of bedhead that Helena's rocking there. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	neuhallidae 2009-06-19 05:37 pm UTC (link)
	No kidding. Hair bands should be jealous of that puffball. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sianmink 2009-06-19 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	I thought she had some bad costumes... This one takes the prize. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	schmevil 2009-06-19 06:21 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah. It's so... random. Bathing suit + fold-over boots + thigh holster + pouches + Crazy Cape! No unifying design elements. Except the ugly. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-06-19 07:32 pm UTC (link)
	fold-over boots See, I just call them pirate boots. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	schmevil 2009-06-19 07:33 pm UTC (link)
	Hey, shut up you. I wrote that before I had my daily does of CAFFEINE. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-06-19 07:38 pm UTC (link)
	Hey lady, I just calls it as I sees it. I will not simply stand by and do nothing while pirate boots are denied their due credit. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	schmevil 2009-06-19 07:41 pm UTC (link)
	SHUT UP AND TAKE YOUR DAMN PIRATE BOOTS WITH YOU. cries (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-06-19 07:56 pm UTC (link)
	Now, now, I represent the Guild of Benevolent Pirates. Our only demand is that the proper nomenclature be applied appropriately. That, and the occasional kraken for dinner. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	galateus 2009-06-19 08:55 pm UTC (link)
	Your icon! It's so familiar. What episode is that from? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-06-19 08:57 pm UTC (link)
	You know, I'm not sure. It's been a while since I watched the Simpsons regularly, truth be told. I can't remember that moment where she says "it begins..." and narrows her eyes like that, but can't remember the context, unfortunately. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	schizoauthoress 2009-06-19 09:07 pm UTC (link)
	Pretty sure that's from the episode with the "Lord of the Rings" parody. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-06-19 09:08 pm UTC (link)
	...I'm a bad, neglectful Simpsons fan. I can't even remember that episode. =( (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kagome654 2009-06-19 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	The episode in which Bart and Lisa make a fort out of shipping boxes and they have to fight off hordes of UPS workers (evoking climatic battles from 'Lord of the Rings'). Also, Selma dates Abe Simpson. I watch too much tv. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-06-19 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	I'm way too slow. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fungo_squiggly 2009-06-19 06:52 pm UTC (link)
	This one takes the prize. No it doesn't. I mean, there's no midriff-exposing window cut out of it. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-06-19 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	Yargh. I mean, it may be uglier, but at least it, y'know, protects her organs. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-06-19 05:34 pm UTC (link)
	So your entire argument is that a character should be defined by just a few examples? So I guess Hank Pym is just a wife-beater. (Reply to this) (Thread)

richardak
2009-06-19 05:57 pm UTC (link)

He is plenty of other things besides a wife-beater, but he certainly is that. Moreover, I think it's very clear that that is indeed one of Pym's defining traits as a character, and that that was one of his defining incidents. Generally speaking, though, five separate incidents is sufficient to establish a pattern, especially in the continued absence of any contrary evidence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	scottyquick 2009-06-19 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	Has Hank Pym, since his creation, by more then one writer, shown to be a person who constantly hits his wife? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	neuhallidae 2009-06-19 06:57 pm UTC (link)
	No, but they're perfectly happy to bring up that one incident just about every chance they get, because while the Avengers may forgive, writers apparently never do. Hell, I think it's been referenced more than "One punch!" by now. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	galateus 2009-06-19 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	If, out of all the recently posted interactions between Pym and Mrs. Pym, he's beating her in 100% of them, and no one's yet come up with even one time when he wasn't... then your comparison would be more apt. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-06-19 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	So, your argument is only stuff that gets posted recently here is valid? So Wonder Woman should be weird fetishes and Nazi fighting? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	galateus 2009-06-19 10:43 pm UTC (link)
	Uh... the second part of that sentence is kinda more important? My argument is that, since it came up, no one's even mentioned half-remembering a counter-example of "Batman surprises Huntress", let alone posted one. Wondy's fetish- and Nazi-free years are already documented. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-06-20 01:10 am UTC (link)
	no one's even mentioned half-remembering a counter-example Because no one's as ridiculously obsessing over this as the OP. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	valtyr.dreamwidth.org 2009-06-20 02:13 am UTC (link)
	The OP is making a controversial assertion and providing evidence to back it up. Good for OP. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	warpedhand 2009-06-20 07:05 am UTC (link)
	Okay fine. Batman has canonically sneaked up on Gods. Huntress does not have anywhere near that capability. This combined with the fact that she kind of serves a similar function as Spoiler does to Robin (not as good so the Bat can look Oh so Cool!), I would say that no, Huntress is not as good at Batman at one of Batman's signature moves. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

chengar
2009-06-20 10:48 am UTC (link)

Well, you're using meta-textual arguement instead of an in-universe one, and your meta-text is in my opinion wrong in any case. Spoiler and Huntress play VERY different roles in the Bat-verse, and for that matter Spoiler never really had her reputation for incompetence until DC was setting the stage for the massive character derailment that was War Games.

Spoiler's role vis-a-vis a Robin was largely related to them being romantically entwined, or at least having a fair amount of UST. Giving superheros a superhero girlfriend is fairly standard fare, although Spoiler managed to grow into much more than merely being Robin's girlfriend.

Huntress and Batman, on the other hand, have pretty much never had any sort of sexual tension (which figures considering who the original Huntress was). Even her thing with Nightwing was a basically a meaningless one-night-stand. Huntress has been defined by her ideological conflict with Batman, particularly the Bat-code against killing. She's certainly not a slightly-less-competent sidekick to Batman like you seem to imply; she's always been Batman's dark mirror. It's no coincidence that her current origin has her family being shot to death right in front of her, exactly like Bruce Wayne. If one considers Huntress as a dark reflection of Batman, it certainly seems reasonable to posit that they would be at the same overall skill level, with each having their advantages and disadvantages in particular areas.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	richardak 2009-06-20 10:06 pm UTC (link)
	Has Huntress met many gods? After all, she was only in the Justice League twice, and in both cases for very short periods. Is there evidence that Huntress does not have that capability, or has she merely not had the opportunity? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	richardak 2009-06-20 10:03 pm UTC (link)
	Why thank you. I appreciate your kind words. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	perletwo 2009-06-19 08:06 pm UTC (link)
	WAUGGGGH NINETIES HAIR NONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!11!1!1!! weeps for the chance to give Hel a Vidal Sassoon bob like the one in that Omega Flight post a couple days ago (Reply to this) (Thread)

	richardak 2009-06-20 09:59 pm UTC (link)
	That is clearly eighties hair. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	foxhack 2009-06-19 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	That is one godawful atrocious costume. Not to mention she looks like a teenaged boy in some of those panels. (Reply to this)

	bluejaybirdie 2009-06-19 09:20 pm UTC (link)
	You know, the pointalism in the shading makes Helena look like she really needs to shave in some of those shots... (Reply to this)

	chengar 2009-06-20 12:18 am UTC (link)
	What the hell people thinking when coming up with costumes and hair designs in the 90's? I don't recall anything seeming that nuts at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight I have to wonder how anyone could ever think Huntress' outfit in those scans looks good. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	richardak 2009-06-20 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Technically, this series came out in 1989, just before the 90's. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tacobob 2009-06-20 12:49 am UTC (link)
	Wow. It's like she went to the super-hero costume store and just picked out some scraps from the bargin bins and pieced it together for a whole new suit. Sort of like the current Manhunter, but without the win. (Reply to this)

	freivolk 2009-06-20 03:16 am UTC (link)
	Huntress looks like she could use some sandwichs. A lot of sandwichs. (Reply to this)

	killermoth1 2009-06-20 04:58 am UTC (link)
	I like the idea that someone in Batman's world can out-stealth him, though you'd never get away with it now that Batman has been shown to literally switch two cups (yours and his) while you BLINK and not have you notice. Man that is some bad art though, and the costume, almost as bad as Jim Lee's midriff exposer. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	chengar 2009-06-20 06:05 am UTC (link)
	Why did I just have a sudden urge to merge the costume in these scans with the Lee costume in order to create a Helena outfit so horrible it will internet explode due it's sheer concentrated awfulness? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	richardak 2009-06-20 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	On behalf of everyone who enjoys using the internet, please do not do that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	runespoor7 2009-06-20 07:01 am UTC (link)
	The strangest thing about Huntress being able to outstealth Batman is that Huntress being stealthy is never used. She's the gung-ho one. I know that's what surprises me about this depiction of her, anyway. Because it's not like pre-Robin Tim or Steph have never been able to outstealth Batman otherwise. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	chengar 2009-06-20 10:31 am UTC (link)
	That's a good point; I imagine there would be fewer objections to the idea that Huntress can out-stealth Batman if more emphasis was placed on her stealthy abilities within the comics. As it stands, Batman has more of a reputation for being stealthy than Huntess, regardless of how their actual abilities compare. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	richardak 2009-06-20 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	There are other examples of Huntress being stealthy; I'll post some soon. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bluefall 2009-06-20 01:07 pm UTC (link)
	Actually Steph has snuck up on Bats at least once while still Spoiler. Bruce got all "psh, I knew you were there," too, which was hilarious. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-06-20 05:41 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't know how he reacted, but yeah, that's what I was trying to say. (Do you remember the issue? I think my only knowledge of it is second hand.) I must've got confused on my negatives? Sorry. But yeah, I was trying to say that Steph's being depicted as being very good at stealth. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-06-21 02:03 am UTC (link)
	I do not, I'm afraid. We should ask Nev next time she swings by. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	unknownscribler 2009-06-24 04:41 am UTC (link)
	It's called jobbing. (Reply to this) (Thread)

richardak
2009-06-24 02:03 pm UTC (link)

I have to confess that I don't really know what you mean by this. Jobbing is a term from professional wrestling that simply means to lose. A jobber is a wrestler who loses routinely. In the parlance of analyzing fiction, it has come to refer to bringing in a character to lose just to show off how tough the winner is. Strictly speaking, Batman has been brought in to this story to create dramatic tension with the Huntress, because they have competing goals in this case, and conflict is the essence of drama. More germanely, though, you are begging the question.

That is, I think that you, and a lot of other people who have a problem with the thesis I'm advancing, are starting from the assumption that Batman must be stealthier than the Huntress, because he must be the best at everything. Having begun by assuming what you have set out to prove, you then can reject out of hand any contrary evidence, and so maintain that there is insufficient evidence to support the thesis.

A more logical way to begin, in my opinion, would be to say that we don't know who is stealthier, and to only make judgments based on the evidence before us. Now, at this moment, all the evidence that has been presented indicates that the Huntress is stealthier than Batman. Saying "oh, he's just jobbing to her" does not constitute evidence.

(Reply to this) (Parent)