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bluefall ([info]bluefall) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-03-06 22:21:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: acantha of themyscira, char: apollo/dc, char: artemis of bana-mighdall, char: cottus, char: demeter/dc, char: diana rockwell trevor, char: euboea of themyscira, char: hades/dc, char: hera/dc, char: hermes/dc, char: hestia/dc, char: hippolyta of themyscira, char: menalippe of themyscira, char: mnemosyne of themyscira, char: pan/dc, char: persephone/dc, char: philippus of themyscira, char: poseidon/dc, char: steve trevor, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, char: zeus/dc, creator: george perez, group: amazons, publisher: dc comics, series: when wondy was awesome, series: world of wondy

When Wondy was Awesome, part 2 (Diana Rockwell Trevor)
Last chapter we saw how Perez cleanly and deftly rebooted the Wonder Woman franchise, discarding all the old continuity, the weird bondage, the creepily gender-centric weaknesses, the sexist "ooh a May-un, I must follow him home!" and outdated "we must fight Nazis!" motivations for leaving Paradise, and her jingoistic 40s-style association with the American Way. One thing he did leave, however, was her costume. Because her costume is iconic. (I blame the TV show for this. And inertia. Two reboots now, at least five perfect story-based opportunities to get her into something sane, and it just never happens.)

This obviously presented a problem, seeing as the costume no longer made sense at all in Diana's new, completely American-free context. Perez attempted to cope with this conundrum by giving Diana's costume itself its own sort of backstory, which is what this chapter is concerned with. Because Perez being Perez, he didn't just write a story about the bathing suit; he wrote an intricate, moving epic that spans two generations, connects Steve and Diana on a personal level and Themyscira and Man's World on a historical one, and solidifies and reinforces one of the most fundamental traits of the very concept of "Wonder Woman."




The story of Diana Trevor, from the reader's perspective, begins with her son. I glossed over his intro in the first chapter, so let's get into it in more detail now. We're back in issue #2, and Steve's out testing a new plane with his co-pilot, when they suddenly run into an impossible, deadly wild storm.





Things About Perez' Run That Kind of Annoy Me, Number Three: primitive amazons. They've been a society for three thousand years. They have no disease, no natural disasters, no famine or shortage of resources, no sudden death, no war to destroy libraries or colleges, no loss of knowledge between master and apprentice, and a lifespan that allows mastery of multiple disciplines on a level no human could master with even one, and their island is bountiful enough to provide ridiculous quantities of spare time. They also have a vicious, lethal enemy sitting right on their doorstep that periodically tries to escape and kill them all, which is really a great motivator for innovation. These facts combined should add up to some really impressive military technology and quite a bit of luxury technology as well. Was the invisible robot jet silly as hell? Yes, yes it was, but I still rather prefer that to a bunch of freaking amazons spazzing out over a damn plane.





I like that Steve looks at a dude with a flaming skull for a face and says "back off, can't you see we're out of control?" That just... seems like an uncommonly mild reaction to your flight partner's head suddenly melting.





Okay. So, that's how Diana met Steve. Now we jump ahead a bit, to after Diana beats Ares - whereupon she goes home to Themyscira to report her victory, and all the gods have a bit of a jamboree about how awesome it is that the world wasn't destroyed and Ares didn't kill them all or anything. Zeus in particular is all "wow, I was wrong about those amazons, and especially their champion. She really came through. I should totally reward her." Which, naturally, translates in Zeus' head into "I think I'll go rape Diana."



Let me just take a moment to sidebar here - I am a huge fan of Diana's strong faith in and obedience to her gods, but when I say that, I draw a rather thick line between the Olympians as a whole and the five amazon patrons in particular. Aphrodite, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Hermes and Hestia have been consistently awesome to her and her people from the very beginning, and it's entirely fitting that she remain their devoted subject. The others... not so much. This is, of course, yet another reason I'm so fond of Rucka's run - the way his Diana interacts with the Olympians, and the difference between her attitude towards the patrons, versus Zeus and Hades, versus Ares, is incredibly appropriate to her history with them. Far more so than, say, Luke's take of a big happy family (much as I like that arc), or Diana's Shamazons interactions with Faux!thena.

Anyway, while Zeus is trying to decide what to wear (swan? shower of golden light? it's been three thousand years, what do the ladies like these days?), the amazons are debating reopening contact with the outside world (and whether to let Diana go back at all, now that the danger of Ares is past).



Interesting that Phillipus is a separatist here. Perez will later have her arguing in favor of contact, mentioning that she's good at it because it being a devil's advocate position for her gives her insight. So good, in fact, that she apparently convinces herself, which I wonder if Perez meant to convey a message by.



Ha. "All will be well." Seriously, Perez' Diana is just too naive to live, and clearly did not pay any attention whatsoever in history class.

Anyway, once Zeus gets his intentions across to Diana, she tells him to fuck off. Politely and worshipfully, of course, but typically, all Zeus hears is no, and he doesn't much like it. Hera jerks him back to Olympus before he can vent his wrath on her or the Amazons, though.





You know, I really enjoy Perez' art, and I love the concept of Olympus' Escheresque, barely Euclidean geometry, but I think Byrne drew it a lot better. Which is sad, because Byrne really failed spectacularly at all things Olympian otherwise.



Yeah, this is why it was inevitable that Athena should stage a coup, right here. Zeus is simply not a just ruler. Sex or probable death! Totally an appropriate way to treat your follower and savior!

"Probable death" is, in this case, a trip through Doom's Doorway, by the way. It may seem odd that the patrons aren't putting up much of a fight here, but a) they have a lot of faith in her, b) they know she'll have secret backup, making this a safer and more effective way to get Zeus off her back than anything else, and c) they know this is a quest Diana needs to take for her own sake, given the answers that lie at the end of it.

Also, if there were no trial, there'd be no story, and this is a comic book here.

So Diana gears up and heads to the door.



Pay attention to that line! "Since the tragic death of she whose name I bear!" That's going to be important later.



Note as well the spent shells, which are also going to be important later. And also the eyes under the stairs, which are, as you might expect, totally a monster about to jump up and kill her.

Well, try to kill her anyway.





Diana really makes a habit out of killing hecatoncheries. She'll have a big awesome fight with Briareos a few chapters up in Rucka's run. Now if we can just get her to find and kill Gyges, she'll have a complete set. That should totally be the first storyarc of WW: Confidential. Seriously, why is that title not being published?

Anyway, with Cottus dead, Diana goes on to fight and kill a couple other impressively dangerous mythological creatures, namely a hydra and Echidna, and there's this whole other sideplot where a vulture shows up and stares down Hippolyta, which convinces her to get her badass on and go through the door after her daughter (this is the secret backup I was talking about). The vulture stays with her on the other side of the door as well, and helps her find the correct passages to follow Diana. This is really, really interesting when you recall that in Greek myth, the vulture is one of Ares' creatures. True to his word after their fight, Perez' Ares really did become Diana's ally.

None of which is relevant, though, actually, since Polly being badass is always of the good, but not why we're here, so let's go back to Diana, who has finally reached the end of the cave system.





Weirdly, Perez' Poseidon is quite friendly to Diana. Given that everything he's ever said or done to her since has been outright antagonistic (which is way more in keeping with his mythic characterization - he was possibly a bigger asshole than Zeus and Hera put together, really), I hope she's appreciating it while she can.





Those are the lamest pteryges in the history of pteryges. Look at that, they don't even cover her crotch. Might as well not even be wearing them for all the protection they offer. Mid-thigh at least, Perez, come on man! You're better than that!







Running parallel to Diana's quest beneath Doom's Door is some stuff with Etta and Steve back in America; his dad has just died, so he's gone back home, and he's been telling Etta about his parents (mostly his mother).



Shouldn't that photo be in black and white?





"Classical" has always struck me as such a weird word choice here. A humanities scholar would probably specify doric, ionic or corinthian if she were feeling that kind of precise. An average joe would probably just say "greek."





Check that art out. Diana Rockwell Trevor's death throes: not sexy in the least. Hard freaking core, yes. Totally badass, yes. Sexy, no. She's sliced up, bedraggled, hair mussed and in disarray, her scream of pain does not look in the least orgasmic... Man, that's so awesome and classy.







D'aww.

There's a bit of a sum-up in the second Wondy Annual too, which goes into a bit of detail about how Diana feels about wearing Diana Rockwell's symbol, and fills in some more detail.





Here, you can kind of see that the double-double is the most important part of the costume, and why - because Diana learned when she came to Man's World that the stars, the stripes, and the red white and blue are American, and she doesn't wear the costume to honor America. She wears it to honor Diana Rockwell Trevor, and her specific coat of arms, the thing that mostly means just her, which she herself designed, is that winged W symbol. This comes up again in Loebs' run, first during her space pirate days when she mocks up a WW but lets the rest slide, and then later when the mantle goes to Artemis and Diana explicitly calls out her decision to always fight under that symbol in particular.





Y'know, I'm willing to accept that Pan has a power level approximately equivalent to that of a GL - the Olympians are pretty cosmically badass, but Pan is a minor deity on the level of, say, Ares' sons, so a Manhunter taking him out works just fine. But here, we actually have a Manhunter being brought up to a cosmic level, which... doesn't. I mean, it seems to me that if individual Manhunters were actually so powerful that their battles could warp reality, the Lanterns would have been pretty fucking hosed.







You know, this actually seems to me like a bit of needless piling on, honestly (not to mention a major disservice to the amazons' combat skills). Diana Rockwell Trevor crash-landed on an island, fell into a battle that was none of her own with a horrifying beast that nothing in her prior experience could possibly have prepared her for, and without a thought, she fearlessly tossed herself into the fray and gave her life to save a total stranger who didn't even speak her language. That's seriously hardcore herosim, right there. There really isn't a need to toss "saved the world, too" in on top of that. If anything, I feel like that almost cheapens the whole thing, like her sacrifice wasn't worthy enough when it was just for Menalippe and Philippus, like our Diana can't carry her name unless she was playing on the same scale as Diana herself. That's a foolish concept, and utterly the opposite of everything Diana's about.

Anyway.



So there's the origin of the Roman name and the Stars-n-Stripes bathing suit. Diana's costume is an amazon impression of an American soldier's personal coat-of-arms, worn to honor that American's noble sacrifice for the Amazon cause. Now that Diana has isolated the actual coat-of-arms bit, the American iconography has become more a matter of habit and familiarity than anything, but she will never, ever, ever not fight under the double-double.

It doesn't entirely work, of course. Because amazons would design tribute armor with amazonian aesthetic sensibilities. Like, for example, the suit of armor that Diana Rockwell Trevor was buried in. Now that looks like an amazon interpretation of her "coat of arms" (minus the pteryges, of course, which are made of woe and fail). Diana's "armor" doesn't look anything like any other amazonian armor we've ever seen, nor does it look like any kind of clothing they've ever designed - it just isn't something an amazon would have come up with. I mean, all in all, I think Perez did a damn good job of making it make sense for her to still be wearing this silly, jingoistic riot of random foreign patriotism even in her post-Crisis reboot, but the fact remains that she's wearing a silly, jingoistic riot of random foreign patriotism, which is both insanely impractical (no freaking way it wouldn't just peel right off her body the first time she tried to fly anywhere) and aesthetically absurd at best. Plus the connotations of its rather stripperiffic nature aren't exactly ideal to be attaching to Wonder Woman.

But, y'know, in the end, that doesn't even matter, because despite its ostensible purpose, the important part of this story really isn't the costume, when you get right down to it - it's Diana Rockwell Trevor, and the sacrifice she made for the amazons. Wonder Woman is the most powerful woman on Earth. She can go toe-to-toe with Superman and drag planets around. She's been an actual, literal goddess. She is more moral, dedicated, wise, and strong than anybody. And yet, she looks up to one of us. She wears a standard that honors someone humbler than any amazon. She strives to live up to the example set by a single, simple human, a nobody pilot with no special powers and no special calling who was never celebrated or even really known at all to her own world. That's just... such an incredibly powerful message. She's not above us, she's not something we can't be. The heroism she's inherited is ours. The amazons, especially Diana, are better than us. But they're not better than we can be, and that message is core to the whole Wondy mythos. And the story of Diana Rockwell Trevor is the pure, distilled heart of it.

Scans are from WWv2 #2-12, #93, and Wondy Annual #2, most of which is collected in the "Challenge of the Gods" TPB.

Next time: Perez will probably make you cry over a character you've never heard of, and Polly proves the awesome is hereditary.



(Post a new comment)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-03-07 01:06 am UTC (link)
She's not above us,

I think that needs to be tattooed to Geoff Johns' forehead.

And anyone else who thinks she's "not human enough."

She doesn't preach, she would never speechify about what people ought to do. She's like Superman (is supposed to be) in that she leads by example.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-07 02:28 pm UTC (link)
I've been concerned by the hinting in Gail's run recently that this story is going to be retconned and the emblem will be a callback to the golden eagle of her birth. A greater emphasis on Diana Rockwell over the years, and what her legacy means to Diana, could have gone a long way toward helping people understand that "not to look down on us, but rather to show us what we could be" aspect of her character. Taking it out can only hurt her, and I think it's a major disservice to all three characters and to the mythos itself. I really hope I'm reading the hints wrong.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-03-07 04:59 pm UTC (link)
The Eagle could just be a symbol of royalty. God, I hope so.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]filbypott
2009-03-07 01:08 am UTC (link)
Re: Diana's costume: I really liked Darwyn Cooke's take on it in The New Frontier. Basically the same, but with an armor skirt instead of hot pants (pteryges, you called them?), like a Greek soldier.

Re: Amazons and technology: I'm not sure, personally, if it would have been feasible for them to reach industrial-level tech, but yeah, they should have known the plane was a machine.

I like Steve Trevor. He doesn't have to be Diana's love interest, but I wish he were a more visible part of her supporting cast these days.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-07 02:22 pm UTC (link)
What's odd about Perez' amazon tech is... they have steel. The bracers they wear are definitely not bronze, nor could anything less sophisticated than steel have been used in the construction of the pistons on Doom's Door there.

This has to have been their own innovation, because in 1000 BC they didn't have steel in the Aegean - quality mass-manufacture on the level that the amazons evidence didn't show up for another 500 years. Even more so, given their construction of the Door, they have access to a *lot* of iron, a really, really sophisticated and impressive forge, and a sound understanding of mechanical principles.

So they can't have just frozen where they were when they were dumped on the island. Just that door suggests a tremendous step up from the ancient greeks they left. So, why did they keep going that far, and then why on Earth would they stop there, of all places, given what a revolutionary thing steel manufacture is, technology-wise?

I like Steve Trevor. He doesn't have to be Diana's love interest, but I wish he were a more visible part of her supporting cast these days.

You'll be pleased with last month's Wondy, then.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]arrlaari.livejournal.com
2009-03-07 08:35 pm UTC (link)
What's odd about Perez' amazon tech is... they have steel. The bracers they wear are definitely not bronze, nor could anything less sophisticated than steel have been used in the construction of the pistons on Doom's Door there.

This has to have been their own innovation, because in 1000 BC they didn't have steel in the Aegean - quality mass-manufacture on the level that the amazons evidence didn't show up for another 500 years. Even more so, given their construction of the Door, they have access to a *lot* of iron, a really, really sophisticated and impressive forge, and a sound understanding of mechanical principles.

So they can't have just frozen where they were when they were dumped on the island. Just that door suggests a tremendous step up from the ancient greeks they left. So, why did they keep going that far, and then why on Earth would they stop there, of all places, given what a revolutionary thing steel manufacture is, technology-wise?


It's possible, if not probable, that the door itself was made and installed by the gods before the Amazons were chosen to guard it - Cottus's claim that Diana's passage weakened the "cursed seal" and the silly thing with Pan's death imply that something beyond physical power holds Doom's Doorway shut.

As for the general argument for technological advance, I could understand justifying the old-tyme Greek aesthetic (as that's the meta reason for low-tech Amazons) as proceeding from a lack of, or unwillingness to consume, energy - no coal mines or oil wells, or mass wood burning. A great deal of our technological advancement is predicated on a willingness to burn, or otherwise consume, large quantities of a finite set of limited resources and also to lay waste to large tracts of environment, neither of which are very Amazonian. This is especially true of of motor vehicles and most true of airplanes - least energy efficient mode of transport that's ever been economically viable.

On the other hand, that's more of an argument for a fundamentally different kind of advancement, rather than no advancement at all. Off the top of my head, being Greek they would of course be very advanced mathematicians, astronomers, and theoretical physicists; and there's good cause (Doom's Doorway) to have a concious effort to investigate metallurgy (to the extent that their energy capacity allows), siege engineering and organic chemistry.

It's ultimately a speculative fiction premise.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-07 09:01 pm UTC (link)
It's possible, if not probable, that the door itself was made and installed by the gods before the Amazons were chosen to guard it

Actually not - there's a story in the first or second Annual about the first post-Exile amazon death, which involves them actually building the door. Otherwise, that would be the beginning of a decent out, but as-is, the Door remains a major contradiction.

Thing is, I could be made relatively happy with minimal technological advancement, for the very reasons you mention - energy is always an issue, and you really can't jump straight to hydro or solar from zero... at least not without magic. Which would have been the other acceptable solution - magitech, where neither the magic nor the tech are super-incredible-sophisticated, but in combination make their society at least our equal in power. Who needs guns when you can mass-manufacture +1 shocking crossbows that fire missiles at the speed of light? I'd prefer straight technology just because it's harder to dismiss and it's a good shorthand for "seriously, these guys are advanced, they're better than us," but a mix would be plausible as well and perhaps better suited to distinguishing them culturally and flavor-wise.

And hey, a greater emphasis on magic in her culture might help people see how fucking ridiculous Bruce/Diana is. Seriously. It's like some WWII soldier who can't let a single fight pass without muttering about how much he hates germans trying to date some chick from Berlin.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]arrlaari.livejournal.com
2009-03-07 09:56 pm UTC (link)
"Seriously. It's like some WWII soldier who can't let a single fight pass without muttering about how much he hates germans trying to date some chick from Berlin."

Doesn't sound all that ridiculous - it sounds like an old romance trope to me. Bruce/Diana was bad because they took two characters who don't fit into sappy twu luv stories and writing them in a sappy twu luv story. If your editorial wasn't more or less committed to Sexual Mores, a sensible B/D would look a lot like Bruce/Selina in the same kind of way Batman looks like Superman (and vice versa) in Superman/Batman.
I'd prefer straight technology just because it's harder to dismiss and it's a good shorthand for "seriously, these guys are advanced, they're better than us," but a mix would be plausible as well and perhaps better suited to distinguishing them culturally and flavor-wise.

A good compromise would be to show the Amazons grokking to modern tech right away. They'd see the airplane and say "Damn, that thing must weigh X kilograms* and to fly it'd have moving at Y meters per second, that'd require Z watts! We thought there wasn't anything that could provide that kind of propulsion, we've got to take it apart to see where that power is coming from." And then they find out about petroleum they're all like "But what happens when you run out?" And the dude is like "gosh we dunno, I guess we'll figure it out when that happens" and the Amazons are all "oh, Sobek Man's World." It shows their capacity for tech advancement and slides in the explanation for why they didn't. It's like Lex Luthor being able to figure out alien tech without necessarily having invented devices of equivalent power - it says he's smart without having to boost his threat level ahead of time.

The biggest obstacle to writing the Amazons as Better Than Us is the political message - the Amazon critique of Man's World is more or less intersectional feminism plus the Leftist critique of imperialist western states, which is a far cry from the so-mainstream-it's-invisible politics surrounding Superman, and therefore most hero books. MGK (http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2009/03/05/wonder-womans-missing-core/) writes a post saying that WW's central hook is "a woman in man's world" and the third post says "But sexism is over so that doesn't make sense anymore!" (Hilariously, the caveats attached are essentially concede the point) and that's even before you get to the stuff that's critical of U.S. foreign policy, the kind of political content that corporations recognize as political and therefore unacceptable (as opposed to mainstream or reactionary views, which are labelled apolitical, e.g. 300).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-08 02:44 pm UTC (link)
sounds like an old romance trope to me

Just because it's cliche doesn't mean it actually works. It's true that there are many reasons Diana and Bruce are fundamentally incompatible, and his bigotry is merely one of them. Nevertheless, his bigotry is very much one of them, and it is not romantic to give her the responsibility of putting up with his prejudice or trying (fruitlessly) to educate him out of it in a relationship that should be a source of strength and support for her, not further work and stress. (Interestingly, Bruce's muggle-centric issues don't conflict with the Clark/Bruce pairing - not just because his hatred of metas is less than that of magic, as metas can be basically understood, but because Clark himself is ashamed of his powers on some level and to some degree - at the very least he's no less concerned by them, which has probably a lot to do with why Bruce is able to be so comfortable with him).

The other thing is, while obviously editorial sexual mores play a part, I think even without them you'd still have the problem, because I don't think Bruce, as a character, could ever be comfortable interacting with Diana that way. Selina, yes, Talia, yes; they're Bad Girls who use sex as a deception or like a weapon, and Bruce is comfortable with weapons and deceit. Sex as a toy, shared by two friends, would freak his ass right out and I can't see him not seeing it as disrespectful to the woman he's with.

I like your plane scenario, though. Too much of a critique to ever fly, and elevates the amazons morally far more than DC right now could ever stomach, but still a pleasant thought.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]arrlaari.livejournal.com
2009-03-09 02:57 am UTC (link)
Interestingly, Bruce's muggle-centric issues don't conflict with the Clark/Bruce pairing - not just because his hatred of metas is less than that of magic, as metas can be basically understood, but because Clark himself is ashamed of his powers on some level and to some degree - at the very least he's no less concerned by them, which has probably a lot to do with why Bruce is able to be so comfortable with him.

You're probably right about the cliche, but I'm not convinced that Batman's meta/magic hating can be taken at face value. He hangs out with Clark and Diana as bestest buds whenever there isn't a retelling of the time they first met or Infinite Crisis, he stuck with the Justice League when Superman and Wonder Woman didn't, he's got an old friendship/UST with Zatanna, ect.

Bruce therefore feels a need to be able to put emotional distance between himself and anyone at a moment's notice; It seems to me that he talks about hating metas and magic in order to give himself a buffer and reserve of brush-off lines against two major categories of people who he's going to associate with, rather than as an expression of sincere feelings.

He's willing to let that buffer be much smaller between him and Clark, and I don't see why he wouldn't let Diana be just as close. I also don't see why you think he wouldn't, as you've emphatically noted that Clark and Diana are the two people he's willing to look up to. (I've a persistent vision in my head of Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman that's just like Superman/Batman except WW is also there with her own caption boxes and everything. It's what Trinity should have been!)

The other thing is, while obviously editorial sexual mores play a part, I think even without them you'd still have the problem, because I don't think Bruce, as a character, could ever be comfortable interacting with Diana that way. Selina, yes, Talia, yes; they're Bad Girls who use sex as a deception or like a weapon, and Bruce is comfortable with weapons and deceit. Sex as a toy, shared by two friends, would freak his ass right out and I can't see him not seeing it as disrespectful to the woman he's with.

That last sentence sounds more like Clark than Bruce; sexually conservative Batman doesn't fit in my head.
How could he stand to go through the Bruce Wayne: Millionaire Playboy act if he thought it was fundamentally disrespectful to the women he's with? How could he not glower over Dick Grayson's sex life, especially in cases where Dick was "disrespectful" of Babs? How could Bruce/Zatanna be at all credible?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]magus_69
2009-03-07 10:29 pm UTC (link)
Thing is, I could be made relatively happy with minimal technological advancement, for the very reasons you mention - energy is always an issue, and you really can't jump straight to hydro or solar from zero... at least not without magic. Which would have been the other acceptable solution - magitech, where neither the magic nor the tech are super-incredible-sophisticated, but in combination make their society at least our equal in power. Who needs guns when you can mass-manufacture +1 shocking crossbows that fire missiles at the speed of light? I'd prefer straight technology just because it's harder to dismiss and it's a good shorthand for "seriously, these guys are advanced, they're better than us," but a mix would be plausible as well and perhaps better suited to distinguishing them culturally and flavor-wise.

I've been thinking about how I would do a modern WW TV show.

(Yeah, wishful thinking, I know)

As far as presentation of Themysciran technology goes: their status as immortal semi-divine beings gives them a facility with magic that a lot of ordinary humans simply don't have. They quickly realized that they had a problem with non-renewable resources (coal and so forth) and so they initially used magic to supplement their tech. They eventually came to develop forms of energy that aren't wasteful of natural resources, and eventually diversified their technology. To give examples of the two most prominent pieces of Themysciran tech: the Invisible Plane is pure science, but the Purple Ray is magitech.

What they have and don't have is based on need as well on what they can naturally do. They don't have guns, but they do have the +1 hand crossbows and which would you rather have? They don't have cars, but they have superhuman speed and endurance (and the most skilled among them can fly) so if they need to get somehwere immediately they can run, fly (atop griffins or under their own power) or use the Planes (well suited to mass transport).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]unknownscribler
2009-03-18 05:24 am UTC (link)
Goa'uld-style artificial constrants on what tech can and can't be developed?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-05-16 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Well, for like 3000 years they were essentially restricted to a tiny island, they could have reached industrial level technology, but where are they going to get coal? and oil? without reducing Themysceria to a blighted wastland of mining? I mean technology requires lots of resources... and electricity doesn't come from magic (...I suppose it could with them, but then where does the magic come from? from all the evil magical leaking from Doom's Doorway/Pandora's Box? do they literally pray/meditate for power?) And they are like several thousand immortals who are for the most part in harmony with nature... They don't need trains or cars... ...though they should have been capable of inventing bikes... I don't think there's enough of them to really justify a communications network (maybe a telegraph)...

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[info]longhairedlady
2009-03-07 03:54 am UTC (link)
I really like the art on these. It's strange to see a gun being so celebrated in a comic, did Wondy ever carry it? I love the idea that, for all this time, and the many times she's saaved the world, she's honouring one woman's sacrifice. It's brilliant.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-03-07 04:25 am UTC (link)
The gun was more of an honoured relic of the Amazons. It was locked away at all times, and taken out for "Bullets and Bracelets" as the ultimate test of Diana's worthiness to be their champion.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-03-07 04:37 am UTC (link)
I don't really have a problem with the low tech, provided that it's an active choice rather than implied laziness.

Weapons never exist in a vacuum. You develop a weapon, chances are the other side will either obtain a copy or steal one. An arms race is fairly inevitable.

Briareus the hundred handed giant with knives is bad enough. Briareus with AK47 (or equivalents)... not a good idea...

Plus it's possible that the more complex the weaponry, the more of a foothold Ares (as God of War) has, and that's never a good move.

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[info]aaron_bourque
2009-03-07 08:40 am UTC (link)
Well, it's a moot point now, anyway, since Silver Age Fanboyism led to the return of the Purple Ray, and Fanboyism led to the military applications of the Purple Ray.

But depending on how the Purple Ray operates, Themyscira is still pretty backwards, tech-wise. They should at least have some auto-loom type thing. And communication tech. We all know how much women like to talk.

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[info]icon_uk
2009-03-07 09:12 am UTC (link)
The Purple Ray was reintroduced as far back as the Grant Morrison JLA, and the amazons were depicted as being advanced in the Phil Jimenez run... certainly Diana was au fait with human, Martian, and New Genesis tech.

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[info]surlytmpl
2009-03-07 11:37 am UTC (link)
And communication tech. We all know how much women like to talk.

They seriously need to bring back the Amazon's "Mental Radio" of the Golden Age. Hippolyta was constantly contacting Diana through it.

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[info]jlbarnett
2009-03-08 05:01 pm UTC (link)
there was something like it in an issue of GL Diana guest starred in. Diana contacted Hippolyta in the middle of a battle and Hippolyta who is quite often depicted as insanely over protective gave her a short answer and told her to go away so she could get back to sleep.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-07 10:16 am UTC (link)
I always assumed that Amazon technology was a product of divine revelation rather than conventional scientific exploration - they pray to Haephestus, Athena, Hermes, or Apollo, and are given the knowledge to construct what they need from the materials they have.

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[info]bluefall
2009-03-07 01:51 pm UTC (link)
An arms race is inevitable, yes. Exactly. The amazons fight stuff that can throw a thousand rocks at your head at once, hypnotize you, turn you to stone, swoop out of the air, pick you up, and tear your head off or drop you from ten thousand feet. They're on the wrong end of the arms race, and it only makes sense that they'd catch up, because there's really no other way they could have survived.

And if it worked that way, actually, I'd think complex weaponry would be of benefit to Athena. The more sophisticated the tools, the more intelligent and tactical the minds behind the fighting, and the more likely it's her kind of war and not his.

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Amazon Tech level
(Anonymous)
2009-03-07 06:37 am UTC (link)
Technological advance doesn´t come naturally. The most time the tech level can stay the same for centurys. The extrem development of technologie in the West in the last 2-300 years seem to be a exception. May be a culturell thing. The obsecen always to build a better mousetrap. Antic culture wasn´t very innovativ. They surly could have build a steam engine . They just didn´t care.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]ebailey140
2009-03-07 02:24 pm UTC (link)
There's also the isolation issue to consider. No contact with other cultures. Much of our technical developments over the centuries were results of one culture picking up something from another culture they contacted, and doing something different with it. It never really made sense that an isolated culture would not only have developed the airplane, but a faster and better one than than the various societies of the rest of the world had developed as the result of centuries of contact with one another. That's why cultures that had minimal or no contact with others were "primitive." It wasn't that they weren't as smart, naturally, as European, Arabic, and Asian cultures. They just didn't have the contact and opportunity to pick up things, and develop what they'd picked up for their own purposes.

Comparing where Japan was during their centuries of self imposed isolation, a feudal culture well behind their peers, to how they developed after they stopped being isolated, is another example. They learned, and adapted, and did it quickly, to the point where they lead in technology, now.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]bluefall
2009-03-07 02:41 pm UTC (link)
Technological advancement is complex, but can essentially be boiled down to a couple basic requirements. You need resources (time, appropriate equipment/source materials, apples to fall on your head) and you need motivation (one invents the house because it's dangerous to sleep outside). Amazons have both. Why would the amazons have an airplane? Because they fight harpies. Sooner or later they'd start looking for a way to take the fight to the harpies' level.

Another aspect of tech development is, as you mention, contact. Exposure to new ideas. Amazons don't interact with other cultures, no. But they do have something that's just as good, that no human will ever be able to replicate: Immortality.

See, cross-cultural contact is the same kind of thing as interdisciplinary collaboration - it's a new perspective on an old piece of knowledge. This happens all the time in modern science - a chemical engineer and a mechanical engineer get to talking, and suddenly one guy's term paper becomes the other guy's million-dollar patent, because his background gives him a different take on the applications of what the first guy knew. In our world, you need at least two parties for this to happen. In the amazon world, it can happen to one - because once an amazon learns everything her culture knows about chemical engineering.... she's still got another couple thousand years to learn everything her culture knows about mechanical engineering. And she can combine all of it, not just what one person is able to explain to another. And then she can learn biology. And she probably started with theoretical math.

Amazons have all the time in the world. That's potent as hell.

Also, they're incredibly religious and their primary patron is the god of intelligence and innovation. Don't underestimate the power of religion in shaping a culture.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]bariman1987
2009-03-07 10:42 pm UTC (link)
Why would the amazons have an airplane? Because they fight harpies.

This and the above discussion about magitek give me the wonderful mental image of the Amazon Air Force flying ornithopters against a flock of harpies while shooting +1 shocking crossbows. There would be goggles.

I wouldn't be surprised if an Amazonian physicist had worked out Einstein's Theory of Relativity centuries before him, but possibly had no way to test out the theory. "Pythagorus? Ha! I came up with that theorum decades before he did!"

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]jlbarnett
2009-03-08 08:15 pm UTC (link)
maybe it's just me but I think fighting harpies would be more a reason for personal jetpacks than planes.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]oddpuppets
2009-03-08 10:35 am UTC (link)
I'm just going to throw in a ref to one of the novels of my favorite series, The Modern World, by Steph Swainston, which I think you'll love.

I was actually going to put up the second novel in that series, No Present Like Time, which has a culture-interaction between a war-run culture and a peaceful, democratic (in the original Greek sense) homogenous culture (sound familiar?) but I think the Modern World deals with this a great deal actually. In it, Swainston expands upon how and why certain weapons have developed in the Fourlands and why others have not. A character from another dimension (this gets confusing fast if you haven't read it) notes that the Fourlands has all the resources able to create gunpowder and rifled weapons, yet hasn't done so. Why?
Precisely because the military leaders are immortal. Because their immortality depends on their being the best at their chosen profession (Archer, Swordsman, Cavalry, Engineer, Artillery, etc) they choose to develop their skills and weapons to the utmost, but only within the limited range available. As such, the Archer will not develop the gun, because his skill and developments of the bow preclude any development of the gun - after all, the hand-gun as we know it was infinitely inferior to most ranged weapons until the development of the musket. Even then, Benjamin Franklin noted that it would've been more effective to have a corps of longbowmen than musketeers (hypothetical, since longbowmen require more training).
I see the same thing with the Amazons. Because they are in a constantly warring culture, fighting constantly the forces of mythology and darkness, they don't have the luxury that our world cultures have. We fight human foes, for human reasons, and with largely a similar pattern, before some game-changer upends the whole thing (Alexander, Genghis, Timur, the Ottoman Empire destroying Byzantium, etc). Even then, our engineering feats tend to occur because of cross-cultural pollination, geopolitics, and religious/cultural factors.
The Amazons may be immortal, but as they have a primarily Grecian view point, their paradigm of weapons will likely stay in that form. They'll invent the hell out of the spear and bow, but what possesses them to create an aircraft? Personally, I'd say they'd go the whole Icarus route, create some mechanical contraption not unlike Leonardo Da Vinci's designs, combined with some of the stuff that some Greek inventors supposedly had a hand in, and create a winged corps. An Icarus-flight, if you will. Combine with the fact that they do have to fight creatures of a demonic nature on a more constant basis, I'm not so sure they'd be so willing to engage in the dabbling that created much of our tech.
That is no reason to make them primitive. Things that I think would be completely feasible, considering Amazon immortality, knowledge, Grecian influence, and conservation:

Magazine-fed crossbows: The Chinese already did this. I'm imagining several different types - a standard one, holds maybe 15, good range and tensile power. A short-ranged one, incrase to 50 incredibly small bolts, close range weapon. Perhaps a machine-gun version, weightier but more powerful. All of these would be auto-loaded.
Mechanically-held bows: increased tensile strength without the need for incredible drawing power - makes it easier to use for larger amounts of population
Spear-launchers: Standard spear, but with the ability to launch spear as well. I'm thinking something like the Romans fought - First line threw spears, then charged in. Now, imagine platoon fire...
Icarus-Wings: Yes, I know Icarus is a cautionary tale, but it's also a catchy name. Winged corps. I imagine that the construction will be very delicate - the ability to create durable light composites requires advanced smelting technology that is highly polluting.
Parachutes: Especially after seeing Trevor's grand entrance into Themyscira, I think parachutes would be a happening thing.
Naptha bombs: Old-tech, new applications. These would range from the anti-personnel grenades to artillery bombardment. Now imagine if they could do stuff like timing the fuse...have it erupt BEFORE it hits the ground...mmm.

cont.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]oddpuppets
2009-03-08 10:46 am UTC (link)
cont.


I'd add that the Amazons would probably be much like the Japanese, in regards with technology- having been introduced to a new source, they'd re-invent the hell out of it. I think that Trevor's introduction would cause a major catalyst in technological development, something like, "Hmm, well, remember those old projects that we had, gunpowder and refining steel and such, the ones we cancelled because it'd be developmentally unfeasible? I think there's a future..." Now imagine the contact with the greater world. The Amazons would totally be the Japan of the DCU.

I do object to the idea of magi-tech however. DCU Magic laws have pretty ingrained bartering rules. To try to barter for the ability to create, say, magically-replenished crossbows, or Light-speed arrows...that would cost more than an arm and a leg. There is the whole divine aspect of Themyscira, but I think that can be explained away by the gods saying, "Well, you don't REALLY need it."

I think something to take into mind is that all our technological developments have occurred under generally horrifying circumstances - war being a great catalyst. It requires lots of experimentation, lots of failures, and lots of ecological damage. The Amazonian know-how can find ways to do it probably smarter and with less waste, but that requires more resources than I think they are naturally given. Progress would be smarter but possibly as equally slowly as our own cultures, because of the lack of wide tracts of virgin resources, cultural interaction, etc.

Update: I discovered that the Greeks supposedly DID have an automatic crossbow weapon. The Polybolos (look it up on wiki!) Mind you, it was a ballista sized weapon, but Amazonian know-how would have minituarized it, as well as developing the existing one to some stupendously horrific capabilities. So there exists even a Grecian basis!
Further note: The chinese repeating crossbow was inaccurate, not terribly powerful vs. heavy armor, and easily wrecked. I'm sure the Amazonian one would be pretty brilliant.
Question: Does anyone know how fast/powerful a crossbow is/was? A modern bow with equivalent tensile strength? Just wondering whether these would be actually Level III body-armor piercing or not.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]bluefall
2009-03-08 03:00 pm UTC (link)
You're really one of my favorite posters here, have I mentioned that?

DCU Magic laws have pretty ingrained bartering rules.

Only for muggles.

That's a bit of a blanket statement, yes; magic is the single least consistent thing in the DCU, which is saying something, and the Vertigo wall really doesn't help. But the basic rule is, yeah, the norms have to suffer for it. The folks who live it don't. If (to use a recently posted example) incredibly normal rube-ass nobody Danny Coleman wants to teleport, he's gotta spend days of his life studying, pay in blood and pain every time he casts the spell, and die an early painful death from the process. It's not safe or easy, it's brutal and costly. On the other hand, if fortunate-to-be-born-metahuman Charlie Gage-Radcliffe wants to teleport, she's just gotta do it. Any time she wants. For free, and in fact it not only doesn't cost her, it heals her. Or a more B-list comparison: Daniel Cassidy was born human. Tremendous, terrifying power was his, at the cost of his soul. Zatanna Zatara was born homo magi. Tremendous, terrifying power is hers by birthright, and as easy as picking up a spoon.

Diana is *made* of magic. If it's water, she's an amphibian - it's her element, she belongs there, it's easy and intuitive and proper for her. There's no cost for her to fly, to be fast or strong or heal the way she does. It just works for her, because that's her world and it's supposed to. It's actually weird that the amazons aren't the same way and seem so strangely detached from all things mystical. That sense of magic being integral to their daily life is the one thing the v3 reboot (::spit::) actually did right.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]oddpuppets
2009-03-08 03:14 pm UTC (link)
I must say, your comment tickled me pink. I fear that this will degenerate into a massive fanwanking (on my part) so I'll sum it up this way: When I scan the comments here, there are a very few posters that I always pay attention to. You're definitely one of them.

Oh, for Diana, I imagine magic being so integral to her life that it's almost unconscious. I always imagine that homo magi, and perhaps spell-users as well, can *see* magic, just as naturally as they see everything else. If they were to be stripped of this magic sense, they'd feel as if one of their senses had been taken away, much as we would if we were to be blinded, or deafened, or had our sense of smell removed.
But do the Amazonians count as homo magi? And are they natural magic-users? I never got that impression from them. I could see them seeking to understand it, cataloguing the abilities and faults and missteps of arcana, but as a populace I thought that they were not terribly magic-oriented. Divinely-oriented, yes, but I think magic is a bit of a different creature. Magic, at least according to Vertigo and the better DCU stuff, is about dealing with various powers and deities, beings and dominions, and affected by various elemental factors. The Divine tends to trump this, as in this case, the Amazons are already sworn to the Grecian pantheon. However, it means that there's no dabbling into the arcane, or so I feel.


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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]bluefall
2009-03-08 05:02 pm UTC (link)
as a populace I thought that they were not terribly magic-oriented.

Well, yes, as per Perez, that's true, but the gist of my comment above is that that feels like a misstep to me. Having made Diana so much a creature of myth and magic, it seems very unfinished to leave her culture behind - particularly considering how much that culture is designed as an extension of her and she of it, as I'll get into a bit next chapter.

Divinely-oriented, yes, but I think magic is a bit of a different creature.

Fine for D&D, but in the DCU, that's a bit of a false dichotomy. Magic can be more or less regimented, more or less organic, more or less powerful, but in the end it's all the same sphere. The Spear of Destiny is a magic artifact, guarded and disputed by magic beings, which can be used to slay a creature of magic. Said creature of magic is the agent of the divinity in the DCU (the Presence seems to trump all embodiment-type deities). Zauriel, an angel, was chosen for the League and to steward the Helmet of Fate due to his familiarity with magic, and he and Blue Devil, as members of Shadowpact, were both familiar with the rules-and-spells world. (Similarly, Ragman is an agent of God and is very much about powers and bargains). To get topical again, Diana's lasso is considered magic, called magic, treated as magic, complained about as magic, is basically unquestionably magical... but the thing it's actually doing is channeling her divine nature. Diana's magic because she's a demigod (and was once a straight-up god, no prefix). There's no real line between divinity and the arcane in that sense, in the DCU. It's more like... Diana is to Zatanna as Clark is to Steel. Both women use magic to kick ass, both men use science; Clark and Diana have an organic, built-in powerset, Zatanna and Steel use the rules and formulas of their chosen medium to produce a wide variety of different mechanical results.

The amazons, though, despite being connected so closely to the magical through Diana and through their own creation as divinely (read: magically) superior beings, have never really had much of either category, when you'd expect them to have more of both. If you look around Perez' island... where are the hippogryph chariots, the phoenix aviaries, the more organic, or, we'll say, divine kind of magic? And if they're immortal and surrounded by this magical Veil that keeps the world out and this pit to another dimension, where are the magelorists who study those phenomena and start laying down the rules for magic that will inevitably lead to practical utility of same (arcane magic) the way scientists inevitably find practical utility for the science they develop? It just seems... a bit unfinished.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]oddpuppets
2009-03-08 05:33 pm UTC (link)
I never really thought of the divine and magic intersecting in the DCU. Good call.

I think the fear is that such a deluge of magic would take away from the, well, humanity of the Amazons. It would make them more fairy-tale than real, as real as they can be in a fictional world. Having them craft things with their own hands, not with magic or divine intervention, but with ingenuity and knowledge and hard work - something satisfying in that. Or, at least, that would be my reason for not having the Amazons actively use magic. Also perhaps because magic users tend to lead tragic lives. I'm thinking specifically of Book of Magic here. Everyone who has had anything to do with magic, their life will eventually lead to a great tragedy.
The Amazons, I think they should interact with magic - but never harness it. If they are as superior as they're supposed to be, I think they would rise above the petty desire to control and dominate that characterizes many of our interactions, right or wrong. They can see magic as it is and have no need to control it. Accept it, but do not touch.

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Re: Amazon Tech level
[info]unknownscribler
2009-03-18 05:41 am UTC (link)
While the Amazons have a long time to get to know stuff, they potentially lack an impetus of new ideas and viewpoints

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[info]ebailey140
2009-03-07 02:45 pm UTC (link)
To add to how complex Perez's run was, there was a reason it had to be Diana to contain the Demon Plague. But, we don't find that out until much later in the run with the use of some classic Greek mythology that ties into Diana's origins so perfectly that you'd think Marston would have had it in mind when he created her... Except that he never brought it up, and didn't study the myths on the level that Perez did. That was one of the most important things Perez did to prepare to write Wonder Woman, really study the mythology in depth.

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[info]bariman1987
2009-03-07 10:30 pm UTC (link)
Man, I'm so disappointed at the absense of a Wonder Woman TAS. This stuff would be fantastic to see animated.

Diana Rockwell Trevor fought in WWII, so I wonder if she and Lady Blackhawk ever got together for drinks? I can imagine them having an animated discussion about air tactics over beers in some officer's lounge, while the male pilots are furiously taking notes.

And thanks once again for reposting this, Bluefall!

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[info]bluefall
2009-03-08 03:01 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if she and Lady Blackhawk ever got together for drinks?

I actually almost wrote that fic once, before I remembered that I don't know jackshit about planes or WWII.

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[info]philippos42
2009-03-09 02:29 am UTC (link)
This was a special "Alpha Manhunter" sent to godhunt Olympus?

Oh, Millennium, you are Woe & Fail. So that's how Pan died? I'd never read the Wondy Millennium crossover, but I knew he was tagged as "dead," sorta, when he appeared in the WML/Deodato run (where he was not apparently something crapped out by Polyphemus).

Yeah, whatever. If any story DC has ever done deserves to be wiped out by cosmic ripples, it's Millennium & its treatment of Karin Grace in Suicide Squad, Helga Jace in The Outsiders, & the Manhunters brainwashing Smallville's children in World of Smallville. Blargh B;argh blargh.

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