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Tweak says, ""Alas, I'm gone!" she cried."

jcbaggee (jcbaggee) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-08 03:40:00

Entry tags:

char: captain america/steve rogers, char: spider-man/peter parker, event: maximum carnage, publisher: marvel comics, series: one perfect moment week, title: amazing spider-man, title: spectacular spider-man

"One Perfect Moment" -- This is quickly evolving into Captain America Is Awesome week...
proteus_lives mentioned this in a comment on the last Cap moment, so I thought I'd drop it in here real quick....

It comes from "Amazing Spider-Man" #330, part 11 of the 14 part Maximum Carnage mega-epic. Carnage's family has been wreaking much havoc and his "wife" Shriek has pushed the entire city to madness! Much looting and general violence ensues as a group of Marvel heroes team up to try and restore order. Most of them resort to fighting back, but Cap has a different method...

C'mon, how awesome is that?

As an added bonus, Cap's arrival to the battlefield in "Spectacular Spider-Man" #202, a moment that's always kinda stuck with me as one of Cap's best "hero shots". Spidey just got his webbed ass handed to him by Carnage and Shriek, who then took off with the severely weakened Venom, when...

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	You are awesome! proteus_lives 2009-06-08 03:07 am UTC (link)
	I wish I still had this GN. The hero-shot is great. Cap does make everything all better! It even has a Jesus feel to it. "This is quickly evolving into Captain America is Awesome week" It wasn't the intention but how can we not? Steve is just such a "moment" guy! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: You are awesome! jcbaggee 2009-06-08 03:08 am UTC (link)
	It really does leave you excited and all butterflys-in-the-stomachy after an entire issue that was basically Spider-Man, Venom, Black Cat and Firestar getting their asses kicked. (Reply to this) (Parent)

khaosworks
2009-06-08 03:15 am UTC (link)

The "HOPE!" next issue tag there says it all. When Cap... well, Steve, really... shows up in the MU it's like when the Enterprise turns up in the middle of a pitched starship battle. Everyone breathes a sigh of relief and thinks to themselves, "Okay, everything might not be okay, but the odds suddenly got a whole lot better."

Like that moment in MARVELS where everyone's freaking out about Galactus and this old black man is muttering, "Just find Captain America. He'll make everything all right. I saw him fight once. Just find him. You'll see."

And it's not like the goddamn Bat-God, where every writer has to show him as uber-competent. It's just because of the nature of who Captain America is.

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adon_ca
2009-06-08 04:33 am UTC (link)

*pensive mood*

And you know... isn't it pretty accurate that a big part of the reason the MU is such a bleak and dark place is because, well... some writers and editors decided to take that beacon of hope away? And they even decided it would be more dramatic to disgrace and humiliate him first? Because when things get bad, there is no Captain America who can come and make you feel like it's going to be all right. All respect to Mr. Barnes... but that aura is something he can't duplicate. Nobody can.

At least, it feels that way to me. :(

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filkertom
2009-06-08 06:00 am UTC (link)

Complete agreement. Killing Cap was, in a sea of really stupid moves, a really stupid move. There are times he's faced cosmic gods -- Thanos and such -- and both of them know he has no chance to match on a sheer power level, but Cap is/was so good at both finding a way to win and inspiring others to win with him that you cannot turn your back and you cannot count him out.

On top of everything else... last night I was going through some boxes, and I found Marvel's Book of the Dead 2004. Right there, Bucky Barnes. And now he's supposed to be Cap. Sigh.

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	sir_razorback 2009-06-08 07:07 am UTC (link)
	You know, reading these thoughts made me think of something. What if, and it's a really big if... What if the events of the last few years have been leading to this very thing? What if the over-reaching arc has been all along to do this? To make the whole Marvel world seem like a darker and bleaker place, and then bring Steve back at the right time? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-06-08 10:54 am UTC (link)
	So Steve is Marvel's king in the mountain? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	iambickilometer 2009-06-08 12:13 pm UTC (link)
	If anyone in the MU could pull that off, Steve Rogers can. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Truth! proteus_lives 2009-06-08 04:38 pm UTC (link)
	Steve Rogers is our once and future Captain. (Reply to this) (Parent)

adon_ca
2009-06-08 12:22 pm UTC (link)

I'd be really happy and feel vindicated if that were so. But Marvel's done so much over the past few years to erode my faith in them pulling that off that I just can't think they have that kind of prescience.

Second, there is such a thing as dragging something out too long. Even if the payoff is amazing, they haven't done enough in my eyes to keep people like me interested in waiting for the payoff. They've poured so much darkness and destroyed so much hope that even IF they intend to fix it in the end, they haven't left the incentive for me and those like me to stick around to see it happen.

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tavella
2009-06-08 02:55 pm UTC (link)

Yah. I got to the "authoritarians are great! Tony rules! Cap's all old and out of touch!" end of Civil War and it was "wow, you really don't want my my nasty ol' liberal money, do you?" I dropped most of my books at that point, but carried a few for a few more months just in case they were kidding. But it was clear from the plots and from interviews that they weren't, so I said goodbye to Marvel, except for Thor.

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	moneyless_jew 2009-06-08 12:25 pm UTC (link)
	That's what I think. I may not approve of all of the road that led there, but that's how I see it unfolding. And let's not forget that Civil War was not all "Tony Is Right." Due to the disorganization behind the scenes, any number of creators seemed to take their own opposing sides - I thought Bendis, specifically, sided very definitely with Cap. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

tavella
2009-06-08 02:59 pm UTC (link)

Oh, some of the *creators* clearly don't agree with the editorial party line; JMS most obviously (and note how he didn't renew his Marvel exclusive and his new stuff is going to be for DC.) Bendis... well, he was at least not Millar, and allowed Steve to be a human being instead of an inarticulate thug.

But creators don't determine the path of the comic storyline, editorial does.

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	tavella 2009-06-08 03:04 pm UTC (link)
	Also, it was Bendis who had the Avengers slaughter without hesitation or regret a bunch of Skrulls who thought they were their friends, so he's pretty down with the worldview. Not to mention the whole torturing teenagers thing in his Nick Fury book. (Reply to this) (Parent)

It better not.

nefrekeptah
2009-06-08 09:45 pm UTC (link)

The Marvel U started becoming a "bleaker and darker place" long before Cap was killed, and Cap's death and Bucky's ascension is pretty much the one and only time a franchise character getting killed off was actually made to work.

It would be cheap to bring back Steve now; it would invalidate all the good writing about Steve's death, and abort Bucky's character progression.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: It better not.

adon_ca
2009-06-09 02:29 am UTC (link)

And this is kind of the other reason why I don't think it's some kind of long-term plan to bring him back (though I desperately wish otherwise). Everything that the Marvel powers-that-be have said in the years since indicate that they LOVE the current status quo. And there are people who love it as well. No offense intended to the person I'm replying to here -- your opinion is perfectly valid, and you are entitled to like what you like, though I disagree.

To me, it wouldn't be cheap to bring him back at all, because he *never should have died*. But I also know that my opinion isn't universally held, and there are many readers who think his dying was a good thing for the book. It's a point of view utterly alien to me, but it's hardly an unusual one.

It's these readers they're catering to now. The ones who think that the book improved for his death, and not me who thinks he's too important a symbol to sacrifice for one particular writer's preferred style. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- right now, people like me are not the kind of people that Marvel is catering to, and I can cry until I have no more tears and it won't change how they think. Because while I hate it, and there are many others who hate it, they love it, and there are many readers who do too. As long as there are enough readers who DO love it, they can blissfully ignore the people they've alienated in the process.

It makes me unhappy, but in the end, I'm just one former fan.

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Re: It better not.

psychop_rex
2009-06-09 02:49 am UTC (link)

My hope is that they bring him back only after we've gotten all of the good stuff out of the 'Bucky is Cap' storyline. I agree that it was a jarring decision to kill him in the first place, but now that they have, I think they should run with it until the story starts to get winded, and then resurrect the real Cap quickly before it starts wheezing. Because they ARE going to resurrect Cap. Of course they are. He's one of their main icons, for cryin' out loud; he's the guy that they put on lunchboxes next to Spidey and the Hulk. He is basically Marvel's Superman, the hero who made them successful in the first place back when they were just Timely - one of the most easily recognizable and iconic characters in the world. They can't possibly not bring him back - if nothing else, there's a Captain America movie coming out in a few years, and they always make sure that the comics mirror the movies as much as possible.
No, it's a foregone conclusion that he'll be coming back - the only question is, how will they do it? I fervently hope that they will follow the example of the 'Death/Return of Superman' storyline, which lasted a long time, but ended right when it should have. As with the current case, the hero was killed and apparently replaced - we're somewhere around the middle of that story, I think, at the part where the general public has kinda-sorta accepted Bucky as the new Cap. And if the similarities continue, the MU should be all the richer for it - 'Death/Return' gave us Steel, Superboy and the Cyborg, after all, not to mention the destruction of Coast City and the subsequent loonification of Hal Jordan. He'll be back - we just have to wait.

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Re: It better not.

tavella
2009-06-09 08:40 pm UTC (link)

Yup. They are trying to sell more books to a smaller pool of people; the single largest group of remaining comics buyers is teenage to early twenty guys, with the accompanying love of grim 'n' gritty high violence stuff. Essentially the Ultimate audience, and what they've done is transform 616 to the Ultimate Universe (and are busy rebooting UU as an even bloodier version of itself.) It's why Quesada has all but said he doesn't want female readers, it's why they've blown off younger readers in the mainline MU. Essentially give that pool of teenage male readers a whole lot of exactly what they want instead of writing for a range.

Though that pool of readers also tends to be the most fickle; look at the spikes and fall for things like Image, the Authority universe, even the Ultimate universe itself. So I suspect Marvel may eventually pay a price for abandoning so many audiences.

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	The 90s are DeMode politicalzombie 2009-06-10 08:02 pm UTC (link)
	To be sure, I'm going to set it on fire too, liefeld grit ugly, ~~liefeld on~~ fire pretty! Nowadays, it's all about the Teenage Hug Epidemic...what's the world coming to? Damn hippies. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Not if they do it while kicking ass and end it with saving a whale

politicalzombie
2009-06-10 07:57 pm UTC (link)

Hey kids! Remember The Search For Spock? The Voyage Home?

I still get teary every time I watch the radiation scene, even though I know that Spock will come back, because it's Spock, dying! Bringing back Spock did not lessen the impact of his death at all, it wasn't just handwaved away.

...and Steve's death is pretty meaningless now, I mean, what changed? Steve is hope, but before his head, the 616 universe was already flushing itself down the toilet. The public mourn, but then unlife goes on, there is no anger against the government, no civilian stood up against Dark Reign.

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No, not even then.

nefrekeptah
2009-06-10 09:52 pm UTC (link)

The problem with that example is that yes, yes it DID lessen the impact. And yes, bringing him back WAS as half-assed, handwaved retcon. Spock's death is still just as dramatic in Kahn, but the fact that he comes back in the next movie really takes the edge off it.

And yes, lots changed. The Marvel U. has always been a dark place, and it's really gotten only a little darker. And Dark Reign was the result of the people getting mad at the Government; they threw out the people that had either helped cause or failed to stop the invasion, and elected the people who had helped stop it, not knowing, or not caring, that they're psychopaths.

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Were we watching the same movies?

politicalzombie
2009-06-10 11:03 pm UTC (link)

It didn't for me, Spock did die, horribly, and he did it to save his friends.

When he came back, Spock wasn't quite the same, there are parts of him that are never going to come back...and the HURT is still there. There were things that Spock wasn't there for, when he was dead.

It's like this, when a wound stops bleeding, it didn't mean the injury never happened. When the writers write it as if it Never Happen, then it sucks.

The biggest impact that Steve's death has, is definitely on Tony...I think it will change Tony if Steve comes back, and if Marvel have the guts, I'll like to see them to do the wedding, minus the sex change!

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moneyless_jew
2009-06-08 12:23 pm UTC (link)

I don't think the purpose of killing Cap was merely killing Cap for shits and giggles because he was "uncool" or anything like that. I think they find him to be the soul of the Marvel Universe. I think they did it expressly to show the MU sinking into despair and distrust, to prep it for his resurrection, presumably during Dark Reign when Doom and a lot of other villains have taken over.

Of course, if they do some lame "Isaiah Bradley is the new/old Cap even though Bucky just became the new Cap NO EDITORIAL MEDDLING HERE" in Cap #600, all bets are off.

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	jcbaggee 2009-06-08 03:18 am UTC (link)
	Its 4AM and I'm kinda bored, so I made a little icon love to go along with the post. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	proteus_lives 2009-06-08 03:27 am UTC (link)
	Your icon rules! It's 4:30am and insomnia is sitting besides me making post suggestions. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sir_razorback 2009-06-08 07:05 am UTC (link)
	I shall never have children again because of this. My balls, I have laughed them off my body. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	joysweeper 2009-06-10 01:58 pm UTC (link)
	laughing (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-06-08 09:32 am UTC (link)
	:'] (Reply to this)

magus_69
2009-06-08 05:17 pm UTC (link)

This is one of those times where context really helps. For those who haven't read Maximum Carnage: Carnage and his followers/family were engaging on a particularly bad rampage, and a group of street-levels united to stop them. The group (at this point) included Spider-Man, Venom, Black Cat, Morbius, Firestar, and Cloak. Over the course of the crossover, Spidey and Venom had been arguing about how to best stop the violence. Spidey had managed to browbeat Venom into playing along, but the situation deteriorated to the point where everybody but Spidey and Firestar had decided to play it Venom's way. Spidey, defeated, was starting to wonder if maybe Venom was actually right. Then, at that moment, Cap makes his entrance.

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	Hold on a Second. nefrekeptah 2009-06-08 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	Didn't this come from Maximum Carnage? And didn't Maximun Carnage end up sucking lots of ass? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Hold on a Second. kagome654 2009-06-09 10:27 pm UTC (link)
	Yes on both counts. Still...Cap. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	liarashadowsong 2009-06-08 11:13 pm UTC (link)
	We should totally have an official "Captain America is awesome" week. (BTW, last panel scanned is awesome.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	joysweeper 2009-06-10 01:59 pm UTC (link)
	We totally should. Yeah, it's like he's haloed by the moon. (Reply to this) (Parent)