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Tweak says, "Why am I always Lois Lane?"

batmanexaminer (batmanexaminer) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-21 22:03:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/oracle/barbara gordon, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, publisher: dc comics, title: batman, title: batman family, title: detective comics, title: nightwing

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon mega post
I made this mega post over at the Spider-Man Crawlspace message boards and figured it would be appreciated here as well.

Thank you everyone who was clicked on my articles at EXAMINER ( http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-6770-Batman-Examiner~y2009m5d21-Poison-Ivy-Trailer ) btw. I need all the hits I can get and would appreciate you guys checking it out again today...and everyday.

Now some Dick/Babs fun through the ages...

(text here is the same from the message board in case there is a reference someone doesn't get..)

Babs first outing in Detective Comics 359. She was introduced as Dr. Barbara Gordon PhD holder...and later became a Congresswoman....yet DC keeps on trying to de-age her and taking away the awesomeness stuff like a Doctorate and former Congress status...

Dick shows some affection but we don't really see too many hints as the age different was thought to be much bigger at the time.

Moving into the 70's Babs went to Washington, became a Congresswoman and she and Dick had a starring feature in the "Batman Family" title. Here is a gag from the end of the first issue...

Fans loved it....right?

DC came out and said a few times that it was meant as a joke and way to shut Robin up, but lots of fans hated it....then they got some letters from fans who loved it....and Batman Family continued with the slight flirtations over time...

We got the mutual identity reveal between them in issue 3...

By Batman Family issue 10, Babs was starting to think about him a bit as well...

This is also the age difference between them and I still see many people ask about how big it is. Bearing any retcons...there it is.

NOW WEDDING TIME!!!

One of the oddest covers and splash pages ever....

The costumes aren't actually worn in the story...and the plot is odd...the criminals want to kill Batgirl and Robin so they brainwash them into a fake wedding so they can shoot them...but Batgirl and Robin merely pretend to be hypnotized.

Dick does get to carry her down the aisle...

Later on we finally see something come of these romantic hints in a later issue of Batman Family

Later that issue...

It's worth noting that at the time Dick was in an on again off again relationship with Lori Eton.

Hmmm maybe all his adultry isn't out of character after all...

Many fans suspected Babs was faking and it took them Nightwing Annual 2 (shudder) to be proved right.

After the Batman Family title ended the Dick/Babs romantic stuff cooled it somewhat. We didn't really see much hints of it and Babs was busy with her on again off again Jason Bard and Dick had Dala the vampire to contend with.

In Detective Comics 489, DC saw fit to erase Babs knowledge of Bruce and Dick's identities. This was actually an editorial mandate as some admitted later....

Um...the problem with Dick's logic there is that in the Batman Family issues she was actually communicating with him in his civilian id and calling him at his dorm....

Babs gets amnesia cause of a villain and has to hear tape recordings of her life to get memories back.....we end with this...

Well it's not Mephisto...

Here is Babs with date Jason Bard at a reception Dick is holding in Detective Comics issue 524

By this point the Dick/Babs coupling was far from everyones mind. If this story was being retold now it would have Dick having jealous first person narration that Babs is with another date.

And yes that is Jason Todd pre-crisis. He was a circus acrobat who was orphaned...fun fact..Dick Grayson offered to adopt him first but Bruce stopped him.

It was decided that the "Babs windwipe" was stupid so we got this scene in Detective Comics 526

Dick went off and left the Bat-titles for a while. Now he's around every other issue and every crossover but there was a time when Dick was BARELY making appearances in Batman and Detective.

In New Teen Titans issue 26 he and Starfire finally got together...he told her of a girl he thought he loved but he was wrong. Some suspected that was Babs but it was actually Dala the vampire as that storyline was just wrapping up in the other titles.

Babs gave up her Batgirl identity in "Batgirl Special 1" and Dick Grayson makes a BRIEF cameo.

Again if that was being retold now we would've had some interaction or some thoughts of their epic love...but that story simply didn't exist in the 80's.

Now onto the 90's when it all came together...

Dick and Babs were shown as a couple in "Subzero" and the Batman Animated series.

The comics then followed suit...

The Dixon/Mcdaniel run on Nightwing is classic and a half.

We first see Dick go to Babs for help (something that becomes a regular part of those early issues) in Nightwing issue 7

Then Nightwing 16...the playful banter turned into full on flirting....

The real love interest when the series starting out was his landlady Clancy...but the Babs scenes were what people were responding to and Clancy EVENTUALLY took a back seat as the lead love interest in favor of Babs.

The flirty banter scenes continued in issue 18..

In issue 19 he has a very emotional response to the revelation that Barbara is stuck in Gotham's Earthquake...

Then we had this scene in issue 20 (first time Dick and Babs appeared in the same room in his solo title)..

This is also the first time Tim Drake and Babs meet face to face.

More flirting in issue 24...

and in issue 25 Tim asked Dick about Babs...and we get a funny history of Dick's love interests...

and Tim tries to push things at the end of the issue..

Finally the arc where they get together...

Dick shows up at Babs doorstep at the end of issue 37

Mcdaniel drew a good Babs! She wasn't too comic book hot...but a right kind of cuteness.

Issue 38 we finally get the kiss...

This time Huntress does the cock blocking instead of Tim Drake...

issue 39 the kiss is discussed...

Unfortunately there was a BIG editorial screwup so Dick wound up kissing someone else on New Year's Eve (editorial later called their mistake)

(by the way you may remember me from Scans Daily as the Lyja/Gwen guy)

(Post a new comment)

	volksjager 2009-05-21 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	THAT was back when the Nightwing book was cool. (Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2009-05-21 10:06 pm UTC (link)

OK, so there was an editorial mistake with that Dick/Helena kiss at the end of No Man's Land? That's good to know; I just finished reading NML in trades and when I got to that page I was like, "wait a minute, Dick and Babs got together during NML in his own book, what the hell?"

Devin Grayson just had to put them together I guess. And then she ended the Dick/Babs relationship during her rip off of Born Again with something as flimsy as "You're always being acrobatic around me and I'm in a wheelchair, Angst!"

(Reply to this)

	thandrak 2009-05-21 10:20 pm UTC (link)
	There was a retcon very shortly in allowing Babs to take her seat underage. I know it was in by the publication of Who's Who... Ah, the "Knight Dependents Act" seems to be it. Something about how the Commish was going to run and bowed out so she could take the seat. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jkcarrier 2009-05-21 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	I never understood the point of that. What's so horrible about Babs being 6 or 7 years older than Dick? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-05-21 11:15 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously, man. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	icon_uk 2009-05-22 06:39 am UTC (link)
	I'm guessing because it sort implied that Babs had been interested in Dick before he was of legal age... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	thandrak 2009-05-22 06:41 am UTC (link)
	I dunno. Just another example of stretching and smoothing ages. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sistermagpie 2009-05-22 08:48 am UTC (link)
	I can't help but feel like somebody just thinks all women should be young. It's like they can't imagine any other past for them than "they dated as teenagers!" when the reality is a lot more organic and unique. And frankly, it still seems like that's the past the characters remember and are living. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-05-22 09:11 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, the Nightwing Annual 2 had them being the same age. Not that I don't throw the wide flag of Discontinuity over Nightwing Annual 2. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sherkahn 2009-05-21 10:25 pm UTC (link)
	You could really feel the "brotherhood" of the Robins in those pages. Ahhhh, good times. (Reply to this)

killermoth1
2009-05-21 10:45 pm UTC (link)

I always loved Dick and Bab's interaction in Nightwing, which I need to buy some of the trades of. I know a lot of people disagree, but I would like them to end up together, especially since I never cared for stripperific Starfire.

Thanks a heap for the post, I didn't like McDaniel's art at first, but know I really like it, bar the occasional odd panel - which fortunately became rarer along the run.

(Reply to this)

	jesidres 2009-05-21 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	As my icon may suggest, this is my comics OTP. Thank you for posting this- I actually first joined scans_daily when someone had suggested some posts that documented their relationship. Dan Didio, I will never forgive you for fucking this up. (Reply to this)

	jcbaggee 2009-05-22 01:10 am UTC (link)
	Wait, so Dick and Babs weren't a couple prior to the Nightwing issues? Hrm, I always thought they were. That's what I get for watching TAS more than I read the comics. And I agree with everyone else, I really miss the good Nightwing, back before One Year Later. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-22 06:38 am UTC (link)
	There is no way on God's green Earth I would call the three years or so of Nightwing prior to OYL anything but ghastly. And post OYL we (eventually) got Tomasi and had Dick with a new ladyfriend, a nice, normal girl he didn't talk spandex-shop with and who he could be a normal person, with a secret identity and everything... it was incredibly refreshing! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-05-22 06:45 am UTC (link)
	Wasn't Tomasi the one who wrote Dick as instant curator of a museum? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

icon_uk
2009-05-22 06:58 am UTC (link)

True but A) It was implied he'd been parachuted in as Daddy-Wayne owned the museum, his title was Curator, his role seems to have been more supervisory.

B) However insane it is that someone without a college degree is appointed curator, that's STILL more plausible than Dick becoming a Mafia enforcer (who, of course, doesn't kill) under his own fershlugging name...

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-05-22 07:06 am UTC (link)
	I won't be arguing the insanity of Dick as Mafia enforcer (under his own name...) but the thing about Dick as curator - beyond the fact that we the readers are apparently supposed to root for that - is that he never relied on Bruce handing him a job. I thought that doing good on his own was the reason he had a job at all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	magnetic_regina 2009-05-22 01:15 am UTC (link)
	I have this inexplicable love for these two created solely from reading Scans_Daily posts. I don't even buy the DCU. (Reply to this)

	ex_stig213 2009-05-22 02:29 am UTC (link)
	There should totally be a cover of Dick as NuBatman holding Oracle while she punches someone, hoamging that wedding issue. (Reply to this)

	freivolk 2009-05-22 02:50 am UTC (link)
	I must say, that Dick/Babs always had this Fanfic-taste for me. So I never can take it serious. (Reply to this)

	lucky_sometimes 2009-05-22 03:37 am UTC (link)
	I really don't like the Dick/Babs pairing. I wish it would go away. But then I Don't like Dick OR Babs paired with anyone, either. I like my heroes unfettered! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-22 03:40 am UTC (link)
	Whereas I like Dick when he is as fettered as humanly possible! Oh, not THAT sort of fettered... sorry! :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jarodrussell 2009-05-22 03:40 pm UTC (link)
	Kind of gives a kinky edge to the phrase "wheelchair bound" now that I think about it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icon_uk
2009-05-22 03:39 am UTC (link)

God, Dick and Helena, thank you Devin Grayson for that abomination of an idea.

Dick and Babs as "Robin the Teen Lust Puppy" and "Batgirl the Tolerant Dominoed Daredoll" was fun, I liked that, a little sexual tension, but nothing to obsess over.

Dick and Babs as an item just never "clicked" to me. They're cute, and the children would be astounding (His moves, her brains, and the combined looks of the two of them? They'd run the world before they left kindegarten) Like the (thankfully) never came to pass Dick and Donna, but they are TOO similar in fundamental personality and outlook to make interesting reading. Both know the ins and outs of their lifestyle, both are equally committed to justice, and so on..

Dick and Kory did, because A) They sparked against each other brilliantly, Dick the uptight one, and Kory the anything BUT uptight one. She opened up his emotions, he showed her there was more to life than passion. B) She wasn't someone connected with the Batverse in any way, which was great, because at the time, neither was Dick C) Again, think of what the kids would be like! (and not just Nightstar), I would want little Bru'ce as a hot male Flamebird!

That being said I loved their "First Date" at the circus issue of BoP, but will never forgive them for never once allowing interaction between Jim Gordon, famously honest commissioner, and Dick Grayson, son of playboy and now cop in Bludhaven, the most corrupt city in America, who is dating his daughter... Dick and Jim interacted more in the 1970's "Batman Family" than they ever did when they were prospective in-laws...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-22 06:42 am UTC (link)
	Oh and Tim and Dick blindfolded, going through kata on the top of a speeding train, classic stuff, the whole issue. Tim's silly grin as he teases his big brother, the nearly falling over when Dick mentions Helena and Dick's calm repetition of "Tunnel" are great. (Reply to this) (Parent)

freddylloyd
2009-05-22 03:08 pm UTC (link)

Dick and Kory's relationship was part of my youthful comics reading, but I missed the 1970s flirtation between Dick and Barbara. Therefore, when I returned to comics in this decade and learned the state of Dick's love life, it took a little adjusting. Of course, that state has been through a lot of adjusting, too.

I very much like Marv Wolfman's idea of Dick as idealistically monogamous: totally committed to Kory when they're together, unable to deal with her political marriage on Tamaran, guilty over being gulled into sex with someone else, mopey over their break-up.

Yet I don't mind Dick being idealistically monogamous with Barbara or anyone else. That includes his brief infatuation with Miggsie (which, as far as I can recall, never even got to a formal date), his slightly less brief relationship with Helena, his dates with the blonde librarian. Even that strange 1970s pairing with Duela Dent. Dick is drawn to strong women who also seem to need his help.

But I can't swallow the picture of Dick as sexually active without a sense of commitment, as heedless of other relationships—the picture we see in Brothers in Blood and Nightwing Annual, #2. (And perhaps, to be fair, in Nightwing Annual, #1, even if that marriage came in the line of duty.) It's notable that both those unpopular magazines were created in the wake of DC's sudden decision to spare Nightwing from death in Infinite Crisis, as writers struggled to make sense of a narrative arc that had originally pointed in another direction.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

jarodrussell
2009-05-22 03:45 pm UTC (link)

I never really got the whole Dick/Kory thing until the Teen Titans cartoon, but then I can honestly say I never got Kory until it either, so...

I think the thing that does click with me in regards to Dick/Babs is...and I doubt this is the basis of a healthy relationship...together they seem to form one healthy, well-adjusted Batman. Dick is the lone warrior avenging his parents death, Barbara is the reclusive detective sifting through data for answers. Dick's playful enough to pull Barbara away from the keyboard when she's obsessed, and Barbara's forceful enough to knock sense into Dick when he goes to the edge.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sistermagpie
2009-05-22 08:53 am UTC (link)

Even in a Dick/Babs post my biggest squee goes for Dick and Tim trainsurfing.

I do not understand why anybody would want to retcon Dick/Babs' original relationship to each other. And Babs really is cute here. I rooted for this pairing then, but I feel like it wound up being a not good relationship for the two of them. But in a way that was organic and surprising for the characters, so it makes it interesting, if that makes sense. Like it wasn't just random drama thrown in to separate them, it was a real situation where you (or at least I) could see they weren't good for each other.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-05-22 09:49 am UTC (link)

This exactly. I liked their flirtation, I like that they acknowledged that and tried to make it something more and how fun they were with the start of it (the "Dick takes Babs to the circus" ish of BoP remains one of my all-time favorites), and I like that despite that, it simply doesn't work for reasons that are perfectly organic to the characters. It's been a really compelling, natural arc.

In another two decades, though, I can guarantee I'll hate it, because it'll be GA/BC, a yo-yo pairing that writers can't stop going back to because it's "destined" even though it no longer makes sense for the characters where they are now. :/

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sistermagpie 2009-05-22 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	Oh god. You're totally right about that, aren't you? I should just prepare myself for it. "They were the original Robin and Batgirl!" will totally be considered more important for a working relationship than the actual way they work together in a relationship. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scottyquick 2009-05-23 10:09 am UTC (link)
	No no no, that'll be another decade. In another two decades, Scans Daily will have sufficiently infiltrated DC Comics and launch "Birds of Ghey: Breaking Faces and More Faces Monthly!". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-05-23 06:01 pm UTC (link)
	We can only dream... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	merseybeatler 2009-05-22 04:45 pm UTC (link)
	D'aww. My comics dealer is a completely devoted shipper of these two - he's this older, squeaky-voiced guy who is always blathering on about how much he adores the pairing and then gets very angry and bitching about Dick being all loose...and stuff. It's pretty funny. (Reply to this)

ladymirth
2009-05-23 02:43 am UTC (link)

I shipped these two madly right up until I read the actual Nightwing series...which kind of killed it dead. Now I'm in a limbo. There's still a part of me that desperately wants to ship them because they could still work if you bothered to loosen up the characters a bit (and my God, what children they would have!) but then I keep flashing back to the ugliness of their actual break-up and the whole idea becomes toxic again.

If I were objective, of course, I'd have to concede that Clancy would be the best woman for him to have a relationship with. But as much as I like Clancy, I love Barbara madly and want only the most awesome guy in the DCU for her - which is Nightwing.

Wish I'd just stuck with BoP and left NW alone. BoP makes them sound like bittersweetly star-crossed lovers destined for each other. NW makes them look like a teenage hang-up well past the sell-by date.

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