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Tweak says, "welcome to dumpsville, baby"

sailorlibra (sailorlibra) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-07 22:15:00

Entry tags:

char: aquaman/orin/arthur curry, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: darkseid, char: flash/kid flash/wally west, char: green lantern/kyle rayner, char: martian manhunter/j'onn j'onzz, char: mary marvel/mary batson, char: steve trevor, char: superman/clark kent, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, group: justice league of america

Grant Morrison does Wonder Woman
Only not in that way. I know y'all have nasty minds.

A few examples of Wonder Woman as portrayed by Grant Morrison from JLA to Final Crisis. Ok, not a few. This thing ain't dial-up safe, sorry.

I'm not going to provide much context. This is partially because I'm lazy and partially because I think you all can figure out most of the storylines without context. It's also because the more I say, the more I convey my own personal bias concerning the story. And I want to know the feelings of other people more than I want to speak my feelings.

The following is an illusion Diana is placing under. The rest of the JLA are placed in similar circumstances.

The one thing I will say... I hate that he has Wonder Woman say "hola" before fighting. I don't know, maybe it's traditional for Amazons to say that word before fighting or something, but it always seems to me like she's greeting her opponents in Spanish. It throws me out of the story. He makes her use the term again in FC, as can be seen below.

Other than JLA: Earth 2, which I should have on my computer, but can't find, these scans are pretty much every scene Morrison ever portrayed Diana in. (Obviously, some scans weren't shown, because I didn't want to go over the one-third limit. However, I didn't cut any major Diana scenes.)

(Post a new comment)

	jlroberson 2009-04-07 10:01 pm UTC (link)
	I can see why Morrison says he never liked writing her. You can tell he couldn't find any emotional connection to the character, portraying her mostly as pure icon. (and I imagine that would be difficult) (Reply to this)

	scottyquick 2009-04-07 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	Completely off topic, but it just looks so wrong, having Scott carry Barda. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sailorlibra 2009-04-07 10:15 pm UTC (link)
	Inorite? Things do not work that way. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-04-07 10:12 pm UTC (link)

I wondered if you'd include the Classified arc. That kind of exemplifies his treatment of Diana for me. She's incredibly competent combat-wise and absolutely an icon, but she's just a warrior (though that shows more in the running-around-with-Steve dream sequence), and the pre-Crisis influence still saturates her. She commands Taz with the lasso, she uses the "hola" nonsense that Perez got rid of, she's commanding her invisible plane. The "good boy" thing is a really jarring note. But the most telling thing, I think, is the narration - in that story, everybody else gets caption boxes. J'onn, the Olympian, Arthur gets a whole page of "this is who they are, these are their powers" as soon as they show up. Diana gets four pages with no introduction, and her caption is "Diana of Themyscira. Wonder Woman." Like, on the one hand, it's such a hell yes moment - she needs no introduction apart from the incredible asskicking she hands out. On the other hand, a part of me wonders if he just couldn't think of anything to say about her.

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aaron_bourque
2009-04-08 06:42 pm UTC (link)

Pretty good way of summing Grant Morrison's attitude towards WW, actually. He almost gets her, which leads too awesome shit, but when it doesn't, the glaring fail is highlighted.

Like, his JLA run, it led to awesome shit ("Wonder Woman happened to Primaid," "Angels . . . meet Diana" but then again, everyone had awesome shit happen in Morrison's JLA), but in FC it led to glaring fail (but then again, she wasn't the only one glaring fail happened to).

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; . . . to which glaring fail happened.

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	majingojira 2009-04-07 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	Man, this only makes me worry about my own attempts at writing Wonder Woman. The AU aspect I toy with just makes it worse: can she still be an avatar of truth if she is not literally such anymore? Still, I'd like to think I kept her closer to herself than Morrison did. (Reply to this) (Thread)

aaron_bourque
2009-04-08 07:00 pm UTC (link)

worry about my own attempts at writing Wonder Woman.

That bugs me. She's not hard to get. She can be a bit tricky, because she's nuanced in surprising ways that, like say, Superman isn't, really. But he doesn't need to be.

Wonder Woman is a proud, introspective, helper person. Even if you remove her "Spirit of Truth" aspect (which would be silly, like removing Batman's detective aspect--oh wait--or Superman's friend to everyone aspect--oh wait), she still has a rigid sense of honor (a warrior's honor, but she wasn't raised by hippies, she was raised by Amazons, dammit) and an almost uncanny sense of self. She is compassionate almost to the point of self-sacrifice, but she also has a temper (especially in her early career), and woe betide any who are on the wrong end of a flare-up. She's well aware of her abilities, but not to the point of arrogance (I don't think she has an arrogant bone in her body), and she tries to be fair and nonjudgemental. She's the best person to seek advice from, because she'll listen and try to guide you to what you need, not tell you what you need.

Sounds marysue-ish, almost. But she tends not to get involved where she knows she'd be a hindrance (whereas a mary sue doesn't think she can be one), and is much more likely to try to get other people to work through their own problems. She'll just keep things from escalating until they do, and if she can't, she'll save lives until they do. And if they still don't, then she'll bring her full Amazon training and god-gifted abilities to bear.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I think the main problem with writing Diana is that she has such a strong sense of self-identity, it thwarts most writers' tricks. Kill her mother, she won't really angst much: she'll mourn and get over it. Give her guilt, and she'll work through it and try to make amends and if she can't she won't. Try to attack her gender, she'll just raise her eyebrow and try not to roll over laughing. Try to define her by sexuality, and she'll be like "I been boinking people off-panel for decades now, this is nothing new." And when you make her angst (about being a fucking golem, what the fuck) it just looks so wrong, anyone who actually knows anything about her would know that's not Diana

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majingojira
2009-04-08 07:49 pm UTC (link)

I worry mostly because I care.

Even if you remove her "Spirit of Truth" aspect (which would be silly, like removing Batman's detective aspect--oh wait--or Superman's friend to everyone aspect--oh wait),

It has to do with the setting changes. Short version: The Wonder Woman Mythology as filtered through the Stargate. There's more to it (About a hundred years of history beyond that) but that's the short version.

I'd like to think I hit the nonjudgemental and sureness without arrogance aspects, as well as the compassion/understanding. The other issues have yet to come up. But I'll probably touch on them soon.

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	aaron_bourque 2009-04-08 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	DCU + SGU? Where can I have some more? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

majingojira
2009-04-09 07:33 am UTC (link)

In that case, I should warn, it's a LOT more complicated than that. A more complete picture would be something along the lines of:

A League of Extraordinary Gentlemen type world, focusing on the supernatural/paranormal aspects, which activly admits that the co-existence of several series has lasting reprocussions on both each other and the world around them. With a semi-realistic take on the passage of time (IE: 75+ years of publishing means that more than one person has carried the title name) and is done in an homage to the Super Robot Wars Games.

Like League, I both don't care and bank on a reader not knowing every reference. I can probably count on one hand the number of people who can catch a subtle reference to "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" in a fanfic like this.

At times, it reaches "Everything you know is wrong" level stuff.

So, now properly braced, here ya go: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=132786

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	bluefall 2009-04-08 11:48 pm UTC (link)
	I'm going to second aaron there. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	majingojira 2009-04-09 09:10 am UTC (link)
	Link and warning provided in comment above. Just giving the heads up. Now, GO READ ;) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mullon 2009-04-08 12:23 am UTC (link)
	There doesn't really seem to be uch to her personality, except maybe being really serious, and maybe a bit cocky. But that could apply to a lot of them to various degress. (Reply to this)

	sxyblkmn 2009-04-08 02:49 am UTC (link)
	you forgot Rock of Ages and that crossover with JLA/Wildcats :) i like how he wrote her in Rock of Ages myself (Reply to this)

	warpedhand 2009-04-08 08:19 am UTC (link)
	I know this is off topic, but what happened to Star-Girl's cosmic rod (Reply to this) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-04-08 08:22 pm UTC (link)
	It was recalled after the discovery of a vibrate setting. Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; 3rd time's the charm. The lengths I go to . . . (Reply to this) (Parent)

parsimonia
2009-04-08 10:05 am UTC (link)

Okay, first things first: Who is this Fleur person?!? I must know!

I will never understand why Catwoman and Batwoman are randomly at her side, there. Did they just happen to be hanging around the nuclear waste dump that is Bludhaven? Or did evil!Wonder Woman make a side-trip to Gotham to seek out two non-powered gals to ride the pony-dogs beside her to make herself look tougher? And for that matter, why did they take the time to get new, stupid-looking pants-less costumes with thigh-high boots? Why does being mind-controlled by Darkseid automatically mean a shopping trip for an impractical wardrobe?!? I DON'T UNDERSTAAAANNND!!!!!

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cissie_king
2009-04-08 11:25 am UTC (link)

They were not mind controlled by Darkseid, they were possessed by the Furies of Apokolips, and stupid looking clothes is what the Furies do best. For that matter, it is what Kirby characters do best.

Frankly, I'll never understand all the complaints about impractical clothes. Do people honestly want to see all superheroes fighting crime in sweat pants? Yes, it makes sense but it looks awful. Yes, a few heroes will die getting their cape stuck in a door or falling down trying to run with high heels, but it's small sacrifice to pay to avoid looking at people fighting crime in tennis shoes and sweat pants like they are buying crap at Walmart.

Also, by the time we see the Furies in Final Crisis, it's a few weeks after Final Crisis 3, so Darkseid's troops had more than enough time to find whatever girls he wanted from all around the world to form the new Furies. They didn't need to be at Bludhaven with Wondy.

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parsimonia
2009-04-08 11:45 am UTC (link)

They were not mind controlled by Darkseid, they were possessed by the Furies of Apokolips

My mistake, I guess, but it wasn't made clear in the story, either. Yeah, Diana says "my furies", but I kind of assumed that was just standard Darkseid-ian terminology.

Do people honestly want to see all superheroes fighting crime in sweat pants?

Um, no (well, that would be a fun change if there was one hero in sweats). I honestly like most superhero costumes, including Wonder Woman's, surprisingly. It's just the little details in the art, like high heels, that really bug me. (And by "me", I mean me, and am not speaking for anyone else here or elsewhere.)

It's not the style aspect that bothers me (although Mary Marvel's attire is certainly hideous here) as the practicality of some of it. Like, okay, a superheroine's costume doesn't include pants or displays lots of cleavage? Fine, whatever. It may always be realistic and it may be an example of double standards in superhero comics, but I can deal with it. But when I imagine what it must be like to wear such a costume? If it would clearly result in a "wardrobe malfunction" or make it incredibly painful and slow to run (as with high heels), then that's where my suspension of disbelief ends.

On the other hand, if it fits with the character, maybe it can work. For instance, if a superhero is a supermodel in her day-job, she's probably used to wearing high heels the rest of the time, which means her leg muscles and posture may have become more adapted to that kind of shoe. In which case she may be just as comfortable in high heels as another woman would be in running shoes.

Like I said, this is just me. Mind you, it's the sheer uselessness of going out and changing your wardrobe once you turn evil that bugged me the most here. I mean, why bother? Why do they (or Darkseid) care? What is to be gained from it? Wouldn't they be deadlier if they were able to visibly pass for non-evil? What is the god damned point of it all? It's the lack of logic in the change that bothers me.

it's a few weeks after Final Crisis 3

Again, that was not obvious to me in reading it. (Granted, it's been a while since I read FC.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-04-08 11:53 am UTC (link)
	I should really proofread here on IJ since I can't edit comments. as the practicality of some of it as much* as the practicality... It may always be realistic It may not* always be realistic... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bluefall 2009-04-08 11:54 am UTC (link)
	well, that would be a fun change if there was one hero in sweats The Ben Reilly Scarlet Spider look (particularly the slightly different second-generation take on it in SPIDER-GIRL) is actually a pretty cool costume with a sweatshirt. Black Lightning looked pretty sharp in his hoodie before he got a proper costume too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

cissie_king
2009-04-08 12:47 pm UTC (link)

And by "me", I mean me, and am not speaking for anyone else here or elsewhere.

Yes, I know. When I say "people" I just mean "You and people who agree with you in that particular point," since I have read the same complaint before from others.

Superhero costumes have never been realistic or practical. Superman had a cape, and I can hardly imagine something more cumbersome. But can you imagine Batman or Superman without a cape?

It's a fantasy world where people fight crime in utterly impractical outfits, but that's part of the fantasy; it's a big masquerade ball with punching and lasers.

I always find it disheartening that people want to sacrifice one of superheroes' most charming idiosyncrasies for vanilla boring realism.

In Secret Six there is a vampire or succubus woman who only wears puffy dresses. I dread the day a different writer or artist gives her a pair of jeans for the sake of realism.

Mind you, it's the sheer uselessness of going out and changing your wardrobe once you turn evil that bugged me the most here. I mean, why bother? Why do they (or Darkseid) care? What is to be gained from it? Wouldn't they be deadlier if they were able to visibly pass for non-evil? What is the god damned point of it all? It's the lack of logic in the change that bothers me.

Personally I don't think you must have a logical reason for changing clothes... ever. Although I think it's not very healthy to wear to same tights for a month, so at some point the Furies needed to change the clothes or they would have smelled them coming.

But that aside, why not? The Furies are not Wondy, Catwoman, Giganta and Batwoman, so why should they dress like them? They have personalities and personal tastes... awful as they may be. So why not personalize their new looks with costumes more to their liking?

About passing as non-evil, Darkseid's people did that in the first three issues, but by the time the Furies showed up riding their doggies, it was total open warfare. Darkseid was winning, and at that point they couldn't have cared less if they saw them coming or not.

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parsimonia
2009-04-08 01:21 pm UTC (link)

I just mean "You and people who agree with you in that particular point," since I have read the same complaint before from others.

I realize that, but I have no idea if my own logic and reasoning about that point is the same as that of other people. I didn't want to sound like I was trying to represent other people's opinions, as could have been interpreted the way you phrased things initially.

As for capes and puffy dresses, like I said, I'm totally with you on that, I love most superhero costumes in all their silliness. I can easily overlook most of their impossibilities--it's just that some of the impracticalities bother me (which has everything to do with my own individual tastes and exactly how far and to where exactly my own suspension of disbelief will stretch).

The Furies are not Wondy, Catwoman, Giganta and Batwoman, so why should they dress like them?

Again, I didn't know they were supposed to actually be the Furies.

They have personalities and personal tastes... awful as they may be. So why not personalize their new looks with costumes more to their liking?

*pouts* Because the costumes are stupid and ugly and impractical and hate them? Seriously, it's my own personal standards/tastes and understanding of Final Crisis that seems to be at issue here. I could rant about Final Crisis, but it would be even more tangential at this point and I just don't have the energy for that at the moment.

You can explain it to me all I want, but it won't change the fact that in my head, with my own preferences and interpretations, it still makes no fucking sense. =)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	again with the lack of editing on my part... parsimonia 2009-04-08 01:24 pm UTC (link)
	You can explain it to me all I want You can explain it to me all you* want... (Reply to this) (Parent)

cissie_king
2009-04-08 03:28 pm UTC (link)

> *pouts* Because the costumes are stupid and ugly and impractical and hate them?

Well, yeah, they look like evil hookers, but that's a different thing. I am not going to start arguing "No, damn it, YOU LIKE IT!" That would be nuts. But you did sound like you were complaining not just that they were ugly, but that they didn't make sense in the story. And that's what I am defending, that they do make sense... even their gaudiness.

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	parsimonia 2009-04-08 03:45 pm UTC (link)
	But you did sound like you were complaining not just that they were ugly, but that they didn't make sense in the story. Yeah, I realize that, but that had to do with the fact that I didn't know they were possessed by the actual Furies, and not just under the anti-life equation. With my initial interpretation, it doesn't make sense. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mari_redstar
2009-04-08 04:14 pm UTC (link)

Thing about the cape is, it might be incredibly stupid for fighting crime in, but at least you can wear it around, you know? It's not going to impede you walking much unless it's a really windy day, and even if it gets tangled you aren't going to wind up flashing the whole street. You can dress like Superman or Batman. People do all the time. Wonder Woman... well, you can, but you're gonna be keeping your top up with double-sided tape and prayer, and it had better be warm out. And you'd better be old enough to pull it off. Baby fangirls too young for cleavage and heels who want to dress up as a well-known heroine aren't exactly spoiled for choice. I'm not voting for jeans on everyone, but more tights would be nice.

Also, shoulder straps on Wonder Woman's outfit. I wouldn't have to wince reflexively every time she moves, but her costume wouldn't look any less gloriously deranged, either, so we all win!

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	bluefall 2009-04-08 04:17 pm UTC (link)
	It would be so easy to make Diana's costume a hundred times more tolerable. ;_; (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

mari_redstar
2009-04-08 04:29 pm UTC (link)

I didn't think much of the loincloth deal at first glance, but I have to admit it's growing on me the more I look at it. Wouldn't mind seeing the same costume with some of those armored skirt-plate things (pteryges?) for comparison, but, yeah, it would be an immense improvement just like that.

...Maybe we could Photoshop shoulder straps in every time Diana appears until someone gets the hint?

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	aegof.livejournal.com 2009-04-08 12:53 pm UTC (link)
	[i]On the other hand, if it fits with the character, maybe it can work.[/i] Well there's your explanation right there. They're Female Furies, now. Diana and Kate and Selina are gone; there's no reason for them not to wear the silly things Furies wear. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-04-08 01:14 pm UTC (link)
	Like I said, reading Final Crisis, I had no idea that they were supposed to be possessed by the Furies. there's no reason for them not to wear the silly things Furies wear Heh, well, on that we must agree to disagree, because I can still come up with lots of reasons as to why not. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlbarnett 2009-04-08 09:10 pm UTC (link)
	was it ever actually confirmed (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-04-08 09:11 pm UTC (link)
	I'm not really sure. I haven't bothered to read any of the post-FC interviews where Morrison explains stuff. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-04-08 07:07 pm UTC (link)
	(well, that would be a fun change if there was one hero in sweats). Twilight Guardian? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-04-08 07:15 pm UTC (link)
	Yes! I forgot about Twilight Guardian. Man, I really need to track down some of that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	parsimonia 2009-04-08 12:14 pm UTC (link)
	And actually, on second thought, spandex-kevlar or whatever is a lot more practical than loose sweats, since they can't be grabbed as easily and used against you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-04-08 11:58 am UTC (link)

Fleur was a Global Guardian, who went freelance and has since popped up in a couple of random places, and is apparently Deathstroke's ex.

I always thought she'd be a good fit with Checkmate, and I kind of think Rucka missed an opportunity when he added Marie to the DCU when Noelle was right there being French and badass and having familiarity with intelligence work already, and also has very cool weaponry.

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	parsimonia 2009-04-08 12:12 pm UTC (link)
	Hmm...interesting. It just threw me because of the non-DC Fleur de Lys hero from Northguard. Although really, I guess it's not hard to believe two female, French superheroe characters being created independently of one another would end up being called Fleur de Lis/Lys. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	cissie_king 2009-04-08 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	Rucka didn't 100% create Mademoiselle Marie, though. I have never read her, but I think she was a regular character from Sgt. Rock or some other DC war comic. What Rucka did was say that Marie was not a real name, but a codename for female French super-agents so he could have a present-day Marie running around. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-04-08 04:11 pm UTC (link)
	Mademoiselle Marie is 90% likely to be the mother of Arthur Pennyworth's daughter, pre-Crisis. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	cmdr_zoom 2009-04-08 11:03 am UTC (link)
	"But enough about me, children. Let's talk more about Grant's much, MUCH cooler interpretation of a PD character that he's trying to wedge into the DCU by showing how it's more awesome than canon characters." (Reply to this)

	tsuki_the_geek 2009-04-08 11:19 am UTC (link)
	This? This is why I never read a single issue of Final Crisis. (Also, Diana saying "the Reader's Digest version" was the most jarring/odd moment for me) (Reply to this)

	ashtoreth 2009-04-09 12:11 am UTC (link)
	Chiming in late, but that line at the beginning from Kyle..."Working the ring was like giving up cigarettes." I'd like to see a AU story someday where Kyle's drained his own creativity dry from what the ring needs from him. Not in a writers block way, but in a real sinister type story. (Reply to this)

	freeman333 2009-04-09 01:08 am UTC (link)
	I guess I'm exposing myself as a huge Morrison fanboy by saying this, but the "By whom? Your grammar is impeccable, Wonder Woman" line never fails to crack me the hell up. Bluefall or someone can probably answer this: is Key's fantasy world the only place Paula Von Gunter has appeared post-Crisis? I can't remember her showing up in any modern contexts other than this. (Reply to this) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-09 10:46 am UTC (link)

Paula was in Byrne's run. First, she's the original host for Dark Angel during Time-Travelling Wonder!Polly's fight alongside the JSA. Then when Donna gets her soul nuked by Neron, they take her back to Themyscira in the present-day, and the doctor they give her to is a reformed Paula, hanging out on the island. Diana's not sure if she's trustworthy but supposes there's no choice.

Presumably we're meant to infer that Polly converted her to the cause of righteousness (as Golden Age Diana did, since Polly became Golden Age Diana), but brought her back to the island in the present instead of during WWII. However, even Jimenez never referenced or acknowledged this in any way, and when Jimenez doesn't reference your story point, you can be pretty sure that no one will.

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freeman333
2009-04-09 01:32 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. Someone oughtta let Kurt Busiek know there's a story here waiting for him.

On the other hand, do we really need another blond, brilliant, imperious manipulator when we've already got Veronica Cale? (We do still have her, right? She didn't die during Four Horsemen?) Indeed, the similarities between the two make me wonder if it wasn't deliberate on the part of the creator.

On the other other hand, there's an opportunity here for a reversal of the gender-swap cliche that's so popular these days; who wouldn't want to see Baron Paul von Gunter running around in some skimpy outfit?

He could be the long-lost son (grandson, whatever) of the von Gunter dynasty, furious at the Amazons because their no-men policy keeps him from seeing his relative, and he decides to take it out on Wonder Woman, the Amazons' most visible symbol. Or something like that.

Busiek would do it better than I, no doubt. But in this era where everything old is new again, it seems a shame to keep a character this historied under wraps.

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	bluefall 2009-04-09 01:43 pm UTC (link)
	I dunno. There's certainly a good story there, but I hate to do anything to further validate Time-Travelling Wonder!Polly. (Reply to this) (Parent)