InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Call upon the Sea Ponies!"

catbirdseat (catbirdseat) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-11-01 22:19:00

Entry tags:

char: amanda waller, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: booster gold/michael jon carter, char: deadshot/floyd lawton, creator: john ostrander, theme: crossdressing, title: jla classified, title: suicide squad

Booster and Deadshot
First, I bring you crossdressing!Booster,

And secondly, a scan from the pages of Suicide Squad. I read this and wondered what was the deal with Deadshot and Batman, so I thought I'd ask this com.

Does Lawton really pull his shots around Batman? If so, why? What's the story between them?

(Post a new comment)

	daningram 2009-11-01 09:36 pm UTC (link)
	The prevailing theory around Deadshot and Batman is that Deadshot looks up to Batman, as someone who can lead him away from the self destructive path he's on. Deadshot's origin takes alot from Batman's, in a twisted manner. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	catbirdseat 2009-11-01 09:41 pm UTC (link)
	Interesting! The more I learn about Deadshot, the more I'm amazed at his brand of crazy. And Batman is possibly the worst person to lead you away from self-destructiveness ever. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-11-01 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	Well, poor Floyd is hardly the picture of mental health. The reason why he followed Waller so unquestionably for so long was because she reminded him of his emotionally abusive mother. So yeah... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kusonaga 2009-11-02 07:30 am UTC (link)
	Where did you read that? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

daningram
2009-11-02 12:07 pm UTC (link)

It's something we see after Deadshot's son was killed because of his mother's actions.

Right after that happened, Rick Flag went AWOL to kill a Senator to protect the squad. The team was dispatched to stop him, to 'stop Flag from shooting Senator Cray at all costs'. Deadshot, pretty around the bend at the time, found Flag and Cray first.

Instead of stopping Flag, however, Deadshot shot Cray and bragged to Flag (he called him Eddie at the time, the name of his older brother) that he did it to the letter, just like Ma wanted (after all, he stopped Flag from killing the Senator).

In Deadshot's mind, he was reenacting the family tragedy that created his death wish. Originally, his mother wanted him to kill his father, but Eddie stepped in for Floyd. Floyd tried to stop it by shooting the gun from Eddie's hand, but the branch he was on broke so that he shot his brother.

So yeah, Waller=his mom, in Deadshot's mind. Pleasant thought, no?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kusonaga 2009-11-02 12:13 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, yeah. Didn't really catch the Waller/mom parallel at the time I read it, but now that you mention it... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	yaseen101 2009-11-01 10:16 pm UTC (link)
	Well, there is Dick Grayson whom he raised. This kind of stuff depends mainly on the writer though. I can see the DCAU Batman, The Bronze Age Batman, Devin Grayson's Batman and to an extent 'The Batman' incarnation doing this. I don't really see Morrison's Batman or the Bat-god incarnation doing such a deed. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-11-02 12:11 am UTC (link)
	Heh, yes, we were talking about that. The reason why Dick gets to be emotionally healthy and stable is because he was raised by the sane, lovable pre-Crisis Batman, whereas (Grayson/Dini exception) post-Crisis there's no way in hell Bruce could have churned out such a great kid. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	yaseen101 2009-11-02 01:20 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, the man who is considered the most trusted, connected and the unofficial leader of the DCU whom everyone trusts and believes in was raised by Batman speaks a lot about Batman's parenting skills. Pity, people like Dixon and Morrison doesn't seem to get that fact about the character. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	lonewolf23k 2009-11-01 11:26 pm UTC (link)
	I think it's just as likely that Lawton just likes the sport of fighting Batman too much to just kill him off. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-11-01 11:29 pm UTC (link)
	Except that Lawton has never indicated with any seriousness, that he likes what he does. Remember, he's got a death wish. In Suicide Squad, he left enemies alive but maimed when he could have easily killed them. He's utterly indifferent to his work, and definately not a thrill killer. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-11-02 12:08 am UTC (link)
	Isn't it the second Jaculi he kneecaps, and when she swears vengeance on him if he leaves her alive, thinks about it for a moment, then agrees with her and shoots her dead. Actually, who does he maim when he could have killed them? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	daningram 2009-11-02 12:13 am UTC (link)
	She's the only one, really. Floyd left Deadline, almost all Taskforce X members, William Hell and Molotov from Red Shadows alive when he could have killed them. Hell, he's left so many people alive that in Deadshot's latest mini, a bunch of them formed a team to take him down! Though he lucked out as David Cain wasn't there... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-11-02 12:23 am UTC (link)
	I thought he was told to leave William Hell alive, and since Molotov's power is to explode himself into atoms and reform it's debatable whether he could kill him anyway. I was also thinking of Manticore, who Deadshot shoots the hell out of, but I bow to your greater familiarity with the character. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

daningram
2009-11-02 12:37 am UTC (link)

He was told to shoot Heller, not told to kill him ;)

Batman: Do you have any conscience of your own, Floyd?

Deadshot: What for? No one hiring me has one.

Manticore was different as that was the only way for Deadshot to survive. He'll kill to save his life without hesitation sure, but he'll also aim for the hard shots, never bothers to confirm the kill (unless they're his target) and generally make sure there are enough people around to give his death wish a shot.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-11-01 11:39 pm UTC (link)
	The prevailing theory around Deadshot and Batman is that Deadshot looks up to Batman uh, what? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

daningram
2009-11-01 11:44 pm UTC (link)

It's largely inference. Floyd's shrink nailed Floyd's self destructive habits, but observed that a part of him didn't want to die, didn't want to lead this life. This is seen when Floyd re-enacts his trauma with Rick Flag, obeying his 'mother' and in his (insane) eyes, correcting the mistake he made as a kid.

In the Suicide Squad, Floyd only had a few special relationships. Flag was his brother, Waller was his mother, his shrink mighta been a love interest and really, that leaves Batman as his absolution. Which given the contrast in their origins, makes the most sense.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	All I could think of galateus 2009-11-01 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	That's a national security matter. And if I were you I wouldn't probe the situation too closely... rich boy. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: All I could think of yaseen101 2009-11-01 11:20 pm UTC (link)
	"Mine are bigger than yours" Why Batsy, I didn't know you did subtext...oh wait you were referring to Superman, Wonder woman and Aquaman. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: All I could think of bluefall 2009-11-02 01:30 am UTC (link)
	Look at the blocking, and remember this is JLU. He's referring to Aquaman and Superman. Wondy doesn't enter into it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	deepspaceartist 2009-11-01 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	I love the look on Guy's face as Booster finishes his outburst. (Reply to this)

	volksjager 2009-11-01 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	I would compare the relationship between the two to The scene in Civil war between Cap and the Punisher. Despite being who he is Deadshot has a crush on Bats in the mentor/idol way. (Reply to this)

	retro_nouveau 2009-11-01 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	Never gets old. This time I noticed that Kara is mashing the window into Ted, and he missed it. I would guess that one reason that Floyd doesn't want cross that line is because he would have to mess with Clark and Diana, since they're bulletproof and Floyd only has bullets? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	stillawkward 2009-11-02 07:33 am UTC (link)
	Oooooohh! Where is the art in your icon from? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	retro_nouveau 2009-11-02 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	It's from a scan in this post. (Reply to this) (Parent)

aaron_bourque
2009-11-01 11:39 pm UTC (link)

Deadshot started out as a Batman villain.

He used to wear an outfit similar to the Gentleman Ghost, with two revolvers as his weapon (IIRC, he was dual-wielding before it was cool, hence he was a "dead shot.")

He presented himself as an alternative vigilante in Gotham, but was actually running some sort of criminal racket, and eliminating competition.

Batman beat him bad. He's had a fear of Bats ever since.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-11-02 12:17 am UTC (link)
	Also, in his earliest appearances, he HAD to make trick shots, he'd never just shoot someone if he could come up with a stylish and non-lethal trick shot. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	scottyquick 2009-11-02 12:12 am UTC (link)
	Haha, poor Booster! Is that collected? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	darklorelei 2009-11-02 12:56 am UTC (link)
	Yep! Superbuddies ftw. I forget if it's in FKA or ICBIN. I'm sure the next reply will be the correct answer. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	gypsydavy 2009-11-02 01:37 am UTC (link)
	It's collected in a book titled I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League. There's a volume that comes before that one too called Formerly Known as the Justice League. They are both very funny and not that expensive in their paperback forms. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall
2009-11-02 01:43 am UTC (link)

You know, I loved the two Superbuddies arcs, but this scene is a perfect showcase of one of the few things that really, really bothered me. Like, salt-in-a-papercut bothered me, and seriously hurt my enjoyment of something I should have loved.

Guy never gets his.

He's not an amusing ass, in those two arcs. He's genuinely malicious, an out-of-control sneering sexist fuckwad who humiliates and abuses everyone around him, most especially the innocent, unwilling-to-defend-herself Mary. And he gets away with it. Peej isn't allowed to pound him into paste, here, he beats her when they fight. He never gets hurt or humiliated by third parties or put in his place by one of the other heroes. He's rampant id with no check of any kind, either in-universe or narratively. They were even, originally, planning to reward his abuse of Mary by making him the pimp-ass player who takes her virginity. It is supremely not cool.

Guy was an exaggerated ass in the original JLI stories that created the team dynamic, sure. But it worked then, because he was constantly being humiliated, one-punched by Batman, knocked on the head and made to behave in a way that could not have horrified his normal self more, suckered into doing stuff for Tora's sake that the other guys mocked him for, and generally appropriately punished for his unacceptable behavior. In the Superbuddies stories, no such reprieve exists, and he just gets to be ambulatory filth to no consequence, causing his teammates to suffer in ways for which they're allowed no recourse. Superbuddies should make me laugh, not want to see them choked by their own intestines.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-11-02 02:48 am UTC (link)

Motto.

I hated how Guy is written in these stories. Outside of his love of Ice, he's pretty much a scumbag. Contrast that with how well he's written now in GLC.

And I really, REALLY, would like to know what the deal is with DC and Mary Marvel. Until they evil-ed her all up I never really thought about her but now I am reflexively defensive when her name comes up.

Like you said there was talk of her losing her virginity to Guy, Giffen also pitched her losing her virginity to Ambush Bug (true story), JSA had Wildcat (who should be in his 80s) asking her brother if she was available, when they supposedly "fixed" the Marvel Family after IC, Freddy got a power-up and became the face of the franchise, Billy was kicked upstairs and made the Wizard and Mary was put into a coma then abandoned by all her friends, family and every single adult she came into contact with, then influenced by Eclipso, came this close to being a concubine of Darkseid, was made a drudge for Holly and Harley on Themsyscira, got her powers back with a grey lighting bolt (get it - she's not all "good anymore" - way to be subtle, DC!) then makes a deal with Darkseid for no known reason, then has her body possessed by DeSaad, then is beaten up by Supergirl, then is saved by Freddy, then is possessed by the power of Black Adam, then saved by the JSA.

During all this time we get a lot of panty shots and gratuitous sexual posing (all the covers with her boobs prominent), with many of the writers of Countdown making suggestive jokes about her in interviews (including one saying the key to stopping her was for her to lose her virginity to Jimmy Olsen - really another virginity joke!) and saying how much they enjoyed giving her feet of clay. Seriously, I honestly think most of them had never read anything with her in other than the SuperBudddies since she was depicted as an idiotic ditz with no parents. And in addition to all that plus DC's obsession with her virginity and being propositioned by older "heroes" she's still supposed to be only 16!

Can sometime tell me what their guesses are about what the hell DC's problem is with Mary Marvel? This has been going for on several years now and doesn't seem to affect the male members of the Marvel family. The sexual poses/jokes they make with her are particularly skeevy.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

yaseen101
2009-11-02 04:03 am UTC (link)

*jaw drops in horror*

I...had absolutely no idea that the Mary Marvel abuse went so deep. Damn, I thought that was just Countdown and Final Crisis but this is basically pissing/shitting/kicking the character for no logical reason.

Also contrast Stargirl who never suffer such abuse and at times is portrayed as brave and heroic and unlike Mary, crack jokes about her virginity doesn't exist, oh and she never turned evil or wangst (to my memory). This is good for a female character, especially a teen one but it's unfair that another teen superhero is a glutton for punishement.

Yes, I know that Courtney was based off Geoff's dead sister and that grants her some level of immunity from bad writing but she is the closest example I could think of to contrast Mary Marvel's suffering.

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jaybee3
2009-11-02 04:36 am UTC (link)

Yeah, the Mary Marvel stuff goes way back even before they made her all evil and black and dark and stuff in Countdown and Final Crisis. The virginity thing is the creepiest - Guy, Ambush Bug, Jimmy Olsen, Wildcat, Darkseid (seriously he offered to make her his concubine). She's 16 for goodness sake - that's still illegal in most states, does DC even know that? (and in the SuperBuddies series where Guy was making passes at her she was 14-15).

The only excuse they can make for all the sexual stuff is that as "Mary Marvel" she's supposed to be drawn older than "Mary Batson" is but in reality many superheroes(particularly the Morrison JLA since they appeared in the Shazam book and knew Mary Batson) like Superman, Batman, Kyle Rayner, Martian Manhunter, Wally West, Wonder Woman, know exactly how old she is (as evinced in Diana not wanting Billy in the JLA because he's just "a child) and none have told any of these adult creeps like Guy to lay the F**k off her! I really think there are a lot of adult male writers at DC (and it was all males who wrote Countdown) who have a problem with a character like Mary who's purity and innocence are an integral part of her character (since 1942!). Their solution: tear it down! Make her an evil greedy slut!

And like you said Stargirl is saved from this stuff mostly because Geoff Johns wouldn't let anyone try that with a character based on his dead sister (at the end of the last JSA series there was even a whole storyline about how Courtney's virginity made her special and saved her from ghosts or whatever) and no one at DC wants to mess with their Golden Boy.

Supergirl has her own title and is under the protection of the Superman editors. Wonder Girl leads the Teen Titans and is under the WW editors umbrella. There are no Shazam books being printed and DC for the last several years have been pushing Freddy/Shazam and Black Adam hard as if the Batsons didn't exist. So a bunch of middle-aged men with teen fantasies can get their rocks off abusing Mary. That's the only way I can read it since in the last 5 years or so they just have made her stupider and stupider, meaner and sluttier and let her do absolutely nothing heroic at all despite being as strong as Wonder Woman or Superman.

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yaseen101
2009-11-02 05:19 am UTC (link)

Also remember how Supergirl was treated when she first appeared Post-Crisis, it wasn't until New Krypton rolled out that Sterling Gates appeared and somehow managed to FIX EVERYTHING and made her a likable character and Geoff was basically co-ordinating the whole thing at that time.

You are right about the fact that other female characters have protection from the editors. I happen to think that the Marvel Family does not work in the contemporary DCU and that they would be better off in a series set in one of the the Multiverse, like Earth 4. Also, you can say that Morrison actually 'fixed' Mary Marvel in Final Crisis. Desaad pocessing her was the perfect explanation for her OOC behavior in Countdown and other titles, what could have been a great redemption arc with Mary Marvel attempting to regain her abilities and become a full fledged hero, in fact, that's what I thought the writers were going for when they introduced her in JSA but instead they made her go evil AGAIN, this time by her own choice. I can't blame Geoff for that since he wasn't writing that arc at that time, though, he got involved near the end.

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jaybee3
2009-11-02 03:13 pm UTC (link)

Yes originally I hated Mary's role in FC but after re-reading the only problem I had with it is Supergirl getting the upper hand on a fully-powered Mary at the end (WW I could understand but Supergirl?). Morrison does make it pretty clear that Mary is possessed by DeSaad (although it takes everybody but Black Adam forever to figure it out) and pretty much ignores everything that went down in Countdown (as most writers have since). Still when you add Final Crisis along with Countdown and then the JSA arc where she went evil for the 3rd time - it just seems like too much for no reason and she didn't have a chance for her to act heroic at all at any point.

Do agree with Sterling Gates though. This is how I wish Kara had been written from the beginning. She's a young girl with a good heart that cares about people, not a moody, hostile anti-social mess.

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yaseen101
2009-11-02 06:14 pm UTC (link)

My main problem was Mary Marvel going evil the third time. One of the points that Morrison clearly expressed in Final Crisis was that she was possessed by Desaad. The thing was that the Desaad was possessing was a great explanation for Face Heel Turn in Countdown. It could have been explained that Desaad was influencing her using mind control or Apocalyptian technology to control her before he took over her body in Final Crisis. When Mary Marvel appeared in JSA, I actually believed that Geoff was going to pull off something like this, he is DC's Mr. Fixit after all. That's why I was disappointed when she was turned evil AGAIN, when more good would have been done by redeeming and doing a 'Redemption' arc with her. Moreover, Mary Marvel and Freddy would have been perfect members for a JSA spin-off team like Infinity Inc or that new team.

As for Supergirl beating her, remember she was corrupted by Desaad who likely didn't have much experience with Mary's power set and thus was not able to wield her power to the fullest. Moreover, there was the fact that Darkseid's descent to earth was causing time anomalies and the earth to fall into a black hole and the Multiverse itself to break down. I wouldn't be surprised if that was somehow affecting the Magic wielders on earth at that time.

I have other gripes such as the wasted potential of the JLA line-up (the McDuffie line-up) and DC's reliance on constant mini-series for characters like Red Tornado and Vixen when a lot of character work/development could have been done on the JLA itself and how I think not all character development should occur in a character's respective books but on the JLA/JSA as well, but I'll leave that for later.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-11-02 08:54 pm UTC (link)

I think there could be a lot of meta-physical reasons for SG to beat Mary in FC but the real answer is that Grant Morrison really liked Supergirl (he said as much in interviews leading up to the fight) and wanted to see her beat a female hero of equal power (and who else outside of Miss Martian and WW are there at that level?). I also think that Black Mary/Evil Mary in Countdown was largely a result of Grant telling DC he wanted to use an Evil Mary Marvel in FC without telling them how she was supposed to get that way. So the Countdown writers (i.e. Paul Dini) basically made it up. Notice how Mary’s totally aware “deal with Darkseid” for more power at the end of Countdown does not at all jell with Morrison’s Completely Possessed Mary in Final Crisis.
As for the JSA arc I think there was a LOT of Editorial influence there. It was co-written by Geoff (outside of Gail Simone the biggest Marvel booster at DC) and Jerry Ordway (who created the Post-Crisis version of the Marvel Family in Power of Shazam and was also the first comics pro to go on the record about his displeasure on DC’s “Evil Mary” in a web interview during Countdown) and it seems very rushed. At a post on the DC Message Boards Ordway said there were a lot of last minute changes to the story including the fact that Freddy had originally been in the story and the Wizard Shazam had originally not been revived. Also Alex Ross’ JSA cover has Mary in her “Black Mary” countdown outfit while Ordway drew the pink pony-tailed DeSaad Mary outfit within the book itself. It also doesn’t jell with any timeline since Mary said at the end of FC that she would never say the “Word” again and here she is right from the beginning of the story in league with Isis and Black Adam (who said he had regretted giving her power in Countdown and Final Crisis). Based on the non-resolved cliffhanger at the end of the arc, I tend to think that Johns and Ordway were basically told they had 3 issues to press the re-set button on the Marvel Family – Shazam’s alive, Freddy’s powers come from an entirely different source, Billy’s no longer the gray-haired Wizard, Isis is back and both Billy and Mary are de-powered. Unfortunately Mary paid the price again for Editorial decisions even by writers who liked her (I really think a huge part of what happened in Countdown and to an extent with Giffen and the Superbuddies is that the writers had no love or even liking for the character and it showed).

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yaseen101
2009-11-02 09:48 pm UTC (link)

See, it's that kind of Editorial Meddling that drives more people to read mangas more and more, because at least there the creators (most of the time) gets to tell their own story and end it whenever he deems it best.

DC has pretty much become what my Econ teacher once described my writing as, "your writing is like a skeleton you know the structure of answering questions but there is no flesh or blood in the writing", DC actually has some good ideas in store but it mostly ends up as half ass attempts riddled with Editorial Meddling and last minute changes and most of the time, THEY DON"T THINK THE WHOLE THING THROUGH AND LEADING TO A LOT OF INCONSISTENCIES AND PLOT HOLES!!!!!

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toasty_fresh
2009-11-02 06:09 am UTC (link)

Motto. I like Guy, and I enjoyed the Superbuddies, but dear god how he was portrayed in those books was downright unpleasant. He was just disgusting, and honestly the fact that Mary was the butt of those abuse jokes so often without any kind of punishment on Guy's part really doesn't reflect well on the writers. It was just really . . . really . . . rrgh it annoyed me so much!

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retro_nouveau
2009-11-02 03:15 pm UTC (link)

Agreed. I have nothing to add to what you said perfectly, especially about bad behavior being tolerable if it's accompanied by appropriate punishment. I choose to filter out this aspect along with Max Lord, Brother Eye, and Dr. Light (among many other things on a long list) and remember when Tora was following Guy and Bea out of hell (among a few other things on another list).

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	jelly_ace 2009-11-02 10:09 am UTC (link)
	I bought back issues of JLA Classified, including this Superbuddies arc. And I was snorting like a fanboy with each page I read. And then I got sad, cuz DC killed off these characters. :( (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jaybee3 2009-11-02 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	True that, of the SuperBuddies only Captain Atom, Guy, Booster, Fire and Mary are still alive. And only Guy and Booster and Captain Atom (barely) have any significant role in the DCU these days. (Reply to this) (Parent)