InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Like the first time."

cyberghostface (cyberghostface) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-22 00:17:00

Entry tags:

char: invisible woman/susan storm, char: mr. fantastic/reed richards, group: fantastic four, in-joke: context is for the weak, in-joke: never gets old

Hank Pym isn't the only man to hit his wife...

(Post a new comment)

	manofbats 2009-10-22 04:24 am UTC (link)
	Reed Richards has got to be one of most static characters in Marvel. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	manofbats 2009-10-22 04:24 am UTC (link)
	Next to the Thing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	khamelea 2009-10-22 04:26 am UTC (link)
	Which is ironic! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mullon 2009-10-22 04:25 am UTC (link)
	Was he under mind control too? (Reply to this) (Thread)

stolisomancer
2009-10-22 04:53 am UTC (link)

No, Sue was. This is from an old John Byrne storyline where the Hate Monger brainwashed Sue into becoming "Malice," who nearly killed the entire Fantastic Four.

Reed's plan was basically to overcome the artificial anger and hatred with genuine anger and hatred, so he belittled and ignored her until she finally broke down crying. Then she got extremely pissed at the Hate Monger.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-10-22 05:05 am UTC (link)
	Reed's plan was basically to overcome the artificial anger and hatred with genuine anger and hatred, so he belittled and ignored her until she finally broke down crying. ... ... ... Dammit, Byrne. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jlbarnett 2009-10-22 09:08 pm UTC (link)
	actuallyt she punched him first. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icon_uk
2009-10-22 11:46 am UTC (link)

S&M costuming aspects to one side, it was a nice story idea to showcase how powerful Sue was by having a new mysterious attacker (Malice) take down any FF'er to hand without too much trouble, and without being exactly clear how she did it, and THEN reveal it was Sue who, as Byrne was at pains to point out, IS the most awesomely powerful and verstile member of the Fantastic Four when her moral and ethical safety catch is released.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	tacobob 2009-10-22 04:31 am UTC (link)
	If you color in the gray bits in his hair, he's Peter Parker! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	serenity_winner 2009-10-22 04:35 am UTC (link)
	in b4 tonystark.gif (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2009-10-22 04:45 am UTC (link)
	Someone please do that to this! ...maybe add something along the lines of "My spider-sense is tingling" to the word bubble (Reply to this) (Parent)

	box_in_the_box 2009-10-22 05:06 am UTC (link)
	Who, coincidentally, also smacked his wife! OH MARVEL (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	trueredorion 2009-10-22 05:52 am UTC (link)
	His pregnant wife. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	scottyquick 2009-10-22 12:38 pm UTC (link)
	WHAT (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	xdoop 2009-10-22 03:49 pm UTC (link)
	Peter discovered he was the clone, and not Ben. In denial, he attacked Ben in an angry rage. MJ, who was pregnant, tried stopping him, and he pushed her into a wall. When he discovered what he had done, he became horrified and ran off. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-10-22 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	Was it a push? I was pretty sure he actually backhanded her...? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

xdoop
2009-10-22 04:19 pm UTC (link)

According to Spiderfan.org's summary of the ish

Peter loses it and lunges at Ben saying he won't let him steal his life. He says the tests were rigged and that Trainer is trying to play with his life. As they battle, MJ rushes to help but Pete half-turns and smashes her halfway across the room into a machine. Pete can't believe what he's done and runs for it, leaving MJ sobbing away.

Either way, it was in the heat of the moment when he was battling someone else. It's different than what Hank did.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	tacobob 2009-10-22 12:52 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, Pete has all the luck! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	geoffsebesta 2009-10-22 05:31 pm UTC (link)
	what the what? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tacobob 2009-10-22 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/westcott.htm (Reply to this) (Parent)

	auggie18 2009-10-22 05:13 am UTC (link)
	I was just reading the earlier FF comics and Reed is pretty emotionally abusive too. And sexist. And an all around jerk. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	xdoop 2009-10-22 06:52 am UTC (link)
	(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jarodrussell 2009-10-22 10:05 pm UTC (link)
	(Reply to this) (Parent)

	toasty_fresh 2009-10-22 06:52 am UTC (link)
	This :/ (Reply to this) (Parent)

	wizardru 2009-10-22 11:42 am UTC (link)
	If by that you mean that he held the typical attitudes of a man born in the 1920s, then I guess so. But by THAT measuring stick, just about every hero who saw print before the 1970s was pretty darned sexist, dismissive of women and emotionally abusive. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	auggie18 2009-10-22 12:44 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, but for some reason Reed always seemed worse than, say, Ben or Professor X. I think it's because he's always mildly condescending, even when he was being romantic. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

wizardru
2009-10-22 05:35 pm UTC (link)

A fair point. Ben turned into (but didn't originally start as) a Palooka. He tended to put women on pedestals, as they seemed generally unobtainable to him. Professor X was, at least until the 70s, pretty much a sexless being when you think about it. He was the stern father figure and crippled besides.

Reed is SMARTER THAN YOU (and worse, knows it), a war veteran, has super powers, is rich and NOT ONLY does he have a girlfriend who looks and dresses like Jackie Kennedy, he's aloof enough to act like it's No Big Deal. So it's easier to see Reed as a dick, since he really doesn't have any of the disadvantages of most of the other super-dudes of his time.

I just often think it's funny how folks selectively judge characters from the mores of one or two previous generations. Reed IS pretty patronizing to Sue in the early stories...but those stories are now literally 45 years old. Consider the fact also that Sue didn't decided to stop being a 'girl' until 1987.

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	icon_uk 2009-10-22 07:36 pm UTC (link)
	Professor X was, at least until the 70s, pretty much a sexless being when you think about it. Unless you factor in the infamous, squicky "I love Jean too" bit from the 1960's. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	wizardru 2009-10-22 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	LALALALALALALALALALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU. LALALALALALALALALALALA!!!! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	tacobob 2009-10-22 10:25 pm UTC (link)
	Are we talking about this: (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	wizardru 2009-10-22 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	Talking about what? I can't see anything there! LALALALALALA! I think I've been struck blind! I SEE NOTHING! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	stratosfyr 2009-10-23 04:12 am UTC (link)
	Then there was Matt Murdock's "I can't tell Karen Page I love her because I'm blind!" Because blind people are automatically disqualified from love. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-10-22 06:59 am UTC (link)
	I loath Reed Richards his comeuppance is LONG overdue... (Reply to this)

jmacq1
2009-10-22 12:26 pm UTC (link)

I confess, this bit (and the one with Spider-Man) bother me in the context of Hank Pym.

Reed hits Sue because Sue is mind-controlled.

Spider-Man hits Mary Jane because he's in deep emotional turmoil and not fully in control of himself.

Hank Pym hits Jan because he's mentally ill.

And yet, one of these characters has basically been ruined ever since because of that moment, and the other two have walked away completely unscathed.

Why is it that Hank Pym becomes the poster boy for "Wife Beater" to the point where it's considered the characters most identifiable trait next to "he grows and/or shrinks" but Spidey and Reed get off utterly unscathed? This isn't even accounting for the multitude of misogynistic moments that (like the one with Ross posted above) can be somewhat dismissed as a "product of the times" and mostly ignored.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge Hank Pym cheerleader but it does seem like he gets more of a bad rap than he should.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

his_spiffyness
2009-10-22 01:47 pm UTC (link)

Why is it that Hank Pym becomes the poster boy for "Wife Beater" to the point where it's considered the characters most identifiable trait next to "he grows and/or shrinks" but Spidey and Reed get off utterly unscathed?

Ummm, they sell books and Hank doesn't?

I'd say the wife beating thing has become more of an issue recently than in the past. Largely that is due to the lack of respect for continuity by editorial. Nobody notices or cares about Hank's road to redemption since that incident. So they keep focusing on it since everyone assumes the only thing people know about Hank is he's abusive.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jmacq1
2009-10-22 02:23 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I get the commercial aspects, but it just seems weird. Hank was basically "abusive" for...a handful of issues, at best. I'd also argue that Reed Richards probably doesn't sell Fantastic Four any more or less than Hank Pym sells Avengers books. From my experience it's Ben and Johnny that tend to be the "draw" for FF.

Of course Ultimates probably didn't help by being a high-profile book that turned Hank Pym into a character people would wish death upon.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

his_spiffyness
2009-10-22 03:33 pm UTC (link)

I'd say it's the whole family that people want to read about in FF, which is why all the FF cast minus the quartet don't usually last that long.

While the Avengers always has it's rotating cast, with a lot of higher profile characters. Hank is playing second string to whoever is the main draw in the book.

I totally agree with you on Ultimates, I think that did more to cement the image of Hank as a wife beater than anything else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

wizardru
2009-10-22 05:58 pm UTC (link)

Two reasons:

ONE: Context. Reed is striking Sue as a tactic to stop her from killing her friends and family. She has been possessed by Malice and is displaying heretofore untapped levels of power and has almost single-handedly defeated the team. Reed uses the only tactic he can think of, which is to make his wife hate him legitimately to force her real emotions to overwhlem the manipulated ones. A woman who was already reeling from a miscarriage and who he dearly loves. And after its over, they retire to work on their relationship and their family.

Hank Pym, by contrast, is a fucking mess. He's been turned into a caveman. He's been stuck in giant form. He's been brainwashed by his own creation. He's inhaled chemicals that give him schizophrenia. He has had a full mental breakdown. He and his wife had relationship troubles almost from the very beginning. In the midst of some of these events, he struck his wife and then became emotionally abusive. He was repeatedly dismissive of her for at least a year, where he'd say nasty things, demean and insult her and generally treat her like crap. He only struck her once, but he was abusing her for a while, if only emotionally.

Two: The Ultimates brought this whole thing back into the collective consciousness. I literally read the issue where Hank struck Jan in the Ultimates and put it down and never bought another issue. EVER. And I know friends of mine who felt the same and did likewise. 616 Hank is tarnished by that brush. And there was an impression that this wasn't the first time, just the first time we'd seen it....and that impression carries back to 616-Hank, too.

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neuhallidae
2009-10-22 06:20 pm UTC (link)

It's also worth noting that, at least as far as I remember, there was a long dry period concerning the incident, and it actually didn't get brought up again in 616 canon until after Ultimates. 616 Hank and Jan had long been working out their issues with varying degrees of success under Sterns, Englehart, Busiek, and Johns (The Crossing tossed a wrench in that, but considering later writers ignored that, I will too). Then Austen brought down the Issues hammer and turned the pair into an ex-couple who were constantly at each other's throats and bringing up old issues as emotional blackmail, more like their Ultimates counterparts. While the characterization was later altered under Bendis (for better or for worse), Ultimates and Austen had cemented the incident back into writer usage, and boy howdy, did they love getting cheap angst mileage out of it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	xdoop 2009-10-22 03:47 pm UTC (link)
	Because Hank's story made a big deal out of it (Jan with a black eye, Hank getting kicked out of the team). Peter's story focused on it a little bit, but not as much (and he was fighting Ben when MJ tried stopping him and he pushed her away, so it's not the same thing as what Hank did). (Reply to this) (Parent)

stolisomancer
2009-10-22 08:31 pm UTC (link)

It's all in the story beats.

Hank beating Jan was part of a storyline showcasing Hank's continued emotional and mental breakdown, which culminated in Hank nearly shooting himself in the head in West Coast Avengers. It was part of a lengthy storyline about his long, long fall from heroic grace, and no character who was around back then could be faulted for looking at him as essentially unstable.

Reed slapped Sue to break her brainwashing, and to stop trying to kill him. After that, while he's extraordinarily deceptive or condescending towards her depending on the writer, he's never done it again unless he was mind-controlled (i.e. Onslaught Reborn).

Peter throws MJ across a room because he's in the middle of a fight with Ben, she grabs him without warning, and he acted without thinking. Again, he never repeated it and showed appropriate remorse.

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	(Anonymous) 2009-10-23 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	Why is it that you only emphasize that Reed and Peter never did it again, when Hank also never repeated his mistake? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jarodrussell 2009-10-22 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	I notice Tony Stark isn't in your list. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	autumn_lily 2009-10-23 03:49 am UTC (link)
	That's not the type of 'hitting' Tony does on women. Seriously, has Tony ever actually smacked a woman he was involved with? I haven't really read a whole lot for Iron Man so I'm not sure. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kiplingkat 2009-10-22 04:34 pm UTC (link)
	Well, it kind of opens up the door to discussion in how different/screwed up emotional dynamics are in a subculture where you beat the stuffing out of your spouse on a regular basis because you or they are mind controlled/turned evil/training session/on the other side of a civil war/etc. (Reply to this)

	I know why Byrne had Reed hit Sue... (Anonymous) 2009-10-22 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	He thought she looked like a blonde Hispanic woman... (Reply to this)