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ebailey140 ([info]ebailey140) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-03-20 15:52:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: hippolyta of themyscira, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, creator: george perez, group: amazons, publisher: dc comics, series: world of wondy, title: wonder woman

A controversial scene from Perez's Wonder Woman
We've talked a lot about the classic Perez run, it's beautiful storytelling, the dense plotting, the complexity, the rich characterization, and the many subjects it covered; including gender issues, war and peace, addiction, Battered Person Syndrome, sexual orientation, and teen suicide. All of these issues were handled with great care and sensitivity.

It's sometimes been said that Wonder Woman is actually more of an alien to our world than Superman. Clark was from another planet, and Diana is from Earth, but Clark was raised in modern America, in it's culture and with it's values. Diana was raised in a 3000 year old Pagan culture isolated from the rest of the world. And, well, 3000 year old Pagan cultures weren't what, in modern terms, is considered "Politically Correct." We've seen this, more recently, in how Diana doesn't have Clark's and Bruce's "no killing" rule.

Which brings us to a flashback sequence from Perez's run, drawn by Tom Grummett, that got them some angry letters. Anyone who was familiar with Sir James Frazer's or Joseph Campbell's studies of ancient cultures, their myths, and their rituals, understood, completely, as would anyone familiar with mid-90s Disney animated films.

What event marked the young Diana's coming of age? It wasn't a Bat Mitzvah.











While this scene did outrage Vegans, they also got supportive letters on the subject. You may be wondering why Artemis was both Goddess of the Hunt and, as we saw in another post on the Perez run, Goddess of Midwives...
http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/70369.html

It's because, to the ancients, Life and Death were part of the same cycle, and everything in Nature was connected. It wasn't something that we, as humans, were separate from, or above, but very much a part of. It was explained very well in, interestingly enough, two mid-90s Disney animated films, The Lion King...

Mufasa: Everything you see exists together in a delicate balance. As king, you need to understand that balance and respect all the creatures, from the crawling ant to the leaping antelope.

Simba: But, Dad, don't we eat the antelope?

Mufasa: Yes, Simba, but let me explain. When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life.

...and Pocahontas.



I found both those kid's movies among the most thoughtful and moving films produced in the '90s. But, as the great Madeleine L'Engle said, "You have to write the book that wants to be written. And if the book will be too difficult for grown-ups, then you write it for children."

To the ancient cultures, the hunt was something sacred. Native Americans believed that, if they didn't honor the buffalo with their Dance to resurrect them, they would leave. Sure enough, when outsiders came along and began slaughtering the buffalo without respecting the cycle and honoring the sacrifice, the buffalo almost disappeared. Here's the myth of the beginning of the Buffalo Dance...

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/lore02.html

Our modern culture has made these things less... bloody, without animal or, in the case of some cultures, human sacrifice. Now, the Rite of Passage where you are considered an Adult and part of the Tribe is something like Communion. But, what it all means is still the same, even though we've mostly forgotten. It was put nicely on Buffy the Vampire Slayer by Anya, an 1100 year old former vengeance demon, when she explained the American tradition of Thanksgiving...

Anya: I love a ritual sacrifice.

Buffy: It's not really a one of those.

Anya: To commemorate a past event, you kill and eat an animal. It's a ritual sacrifice, with pie.

Scans from Wonder Woman #32. "Colors of the Wind" belongs to Disney.



(Post a new comment)


[info]icon_uk
2009-03-21 05:07 am UTC (link)
Mufasa: Yes, Simba, but let me explain. When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life.

Passing antelope: What a load of... Are are SERIOUSLY trying to equate that? You guys eat, on average, an antelope every two or three days, and lions live for years... and having chowed down on my entire extended family for all that time, I'm supposed to appreciate that you, in turn, will become exactly HOW much grass? a four by two plot? Sheesh! Besides, who made YOU king? I'd didn't vote for you what with the associated reign of terror... I thought we were in an anarcho-syndicalist commune...

Mufasa: LUNCHTIME!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]janegray
2009-03-21 05:24 am UTC (link)
Yeah, the whole "our bodies will become grass" makes no sense.

On the other hand, they couldn't really say "if we don't eat some of them to keep their number under control, they will become too numerous, there won't be enough food to feed them all, and they will all starve to death and become extinct" in a Disney movie...

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]magus_69, 2009-03-21 05:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 05:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 06:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 06:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 07:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 08:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-03-21 08:36 am UTC

[info]lieut_kettch
2009-03-21 07:30 am UTC (link)
Antelope: NOW WE SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT TO THE SYSTEM!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-03-21 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-03-21 12:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tsuki_the_geek, 2009-03-21 04:20 pm UTC

[info]crinosg
2009-03-21 07:33 am UTC (link)
Antelope: Aha! And now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help Help! I'm being repressed!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]noahbrand
2009-03-21 08:30 am UTC (link)
I've heard that movie described as "a diagram of the patriarchy." Also as "worst Hamlet ever", but that's obvious.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-03-21 08:37 am UTC

[info]magus_69
2009-03-21 05:43 am UTC (link)
Looking at this, I suddenly realize what George Perez's greatest narrative strength is. I feel like an idiot for not seeing it sooner, because it stares me in the face whenever I look at his material.

It's his attention to detail.

He's not the best plotter, and his dialogue can be a bit wonky at times, but he constructs these moments that are every bit as detailed as any of the grand splash pages we gush over. As detailed, and as real. His Wonder Woman run is one of the big unknown gems of the comics world, and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it remains largely ignored. There are several types of readers who would love it if only they read it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ebailey140
2009-03-21 08:13 am UTC (link)
Oh, agreed. As I said, he and Gaiman spoiled me when it comes to a big, epic, run on a book. Not that anybody tries the sort of long run with a single storyline that goes for as many years as they did with Wonder Woman and Sandman, respectively.

In retrospect, we should have guessed that Morpheus's treatment of Lyta Trevor-Hall would ultimately be his downfall. She was called the Fury. We should have guessed how Sandman would end, right then. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]janegray
2009-03-21 05:44 am UTC (link)
Can't say I like the scene at all.

In nature, the whole purpose of hunt is natural selection. The boar wouldn't have killed the deer for sport, but in order to eat it and survive.

So what do the Amazons do? First go to hunt the deer with the express purpose of preventing the boar from preying on the deer (ie to make the stronger animal starve, because apparently if a deer gets bitten to death it's a horrible death, but if a boar starves to death it's A-ok), then after the boar manages to prey on the deer anyway they prevent it from actually eating the deer (effectively making the deer's death completely pointless), and finally they kill the boar (end result: both the weaker animal and the stronger animal are dead. I can hear Mother Nature banging her head agaist a tree).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ebailey140
2009-03-21 06:32 am UTC (link)

It was Mother Nature that made us omnivores, so why would She be "banging her head against a tree"?

So, yeah, boars hunt and eat deer, while humans hunt and eat them both (Top of the food chain, and all). Many cultures, and the Amazons would be one of them, survived by hunting. A difference between the Pagan and Monotheistic religions is that the Pagan religions saw everything as connected, and sought to be in tune with that, with a respect and veneration of Nature. The great Monotheistic religions viewed Man and Nature as separate, and Nature something to be overcome.

If Diana had done as instructed, the deer's death would have been quick and far less painful. The deer was going to die, regardless.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 06:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 07:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 08:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluefall, 2009-03-21 09:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 10:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 03:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-22 04:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arrlaari.livejournal.com, 2009-03-21 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ex_gunny827, 2009-03-22 11:12 pm UTC

[info]gargoylekitty
2009-03-21 06:03 am UTC (link)
This actually reminds me a bit of talk I've seen in pagan circles over the meaning of sacrifice. The general consensus being that 'sacrifice' has nothing to do with what it is but what you put into it. The amount of work you put into obtaining it or making it and how much you're giving up by giving it to the gods, or whoever it's for, is what counts. I think that holds up in the idea for the hunt quite well in that taking down an animal is no easy task and giving it up rather than keeping it for yourself is, well, a sacrifice.

In this instance it can be applied more in that it's a sacrifice for Diana to kill that deer because she didn't want to harm it. But maybe I'm looking to much into this. Though, since you don't mention it, was there any indication that they ate the deer? *is honestly curious* Because unlike Native Americans, the Greeks/Romans were more likely to set it up and burn it than eat it because there it had nothing to do with the 'circle of life' but actually sacrifing. Just wondering how this was written to play out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ebailey140
2009-03-21 06:16 am UTC (link)
They were preparing for a specific Feast, so, yeah, the Hunt involves that.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]gargoylekitty, 2009-03-21 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 07:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gargoylekitty, 2009-03-21 07:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 08:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gargoylekitty, 2009-03-21 08:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-03-21 07:59 pm UTC

[info]icon_uk
2009-03-21 07:33 am UTC (link)
This is also another reason that "Diana as vegetarian" has never worked for me. Was it Brubacker who introduced that notion? The Amazons are hunters, and proud of that, they respect life but are perfectly aware that there is a cycle of life and death and they are a part of it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ebailey140
2009-03-21 08:17 am UTC (link)

I think that was Rucha? bluefall will know, I'm sure. :)

But yeah, agreed, that was very off, and a concession to Political Correctness.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]endis_ni
2009-03-21 08:35 am UTC (link)
On the other hand, I could see Diana only eating hunted game, rather than domesticated animals.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-03-21 08:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]endis_ni, 2009-03-21 08:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-03-21 08:48 am UTC

[info]janegray
2009-03-21 08:50 am UTC (link)
To be fair, humans got out of the cycle long ago.

Today we don't hunt for food anymore (oh, sure, some people still hunt animals, but it's more for sport than for any actual need; if you need meat, buying it at a supermarker takes less effort and money than gearing up and going hunt). We raise enormous numbers of animals in captivity, often in brutal conditions, we feed them hormones and other stuff, and finally we chop them up.
Unlike other carnivores and omnivores, we don't serve the purpose of keeping the number of preys under control, we don't contribute to natural selection (sometimes we even thwart it by favouring the reproduction of animals that wouldn't be able to survive on their own, like that kind of cows that is unable to give birth without a person pulling the baby calf out), and our funerals are more damaging than good to the environment (must build cemeteries and coffins, and keep the body locked inside a box where it can't serve as plant food).

Personally I'm not a vegetarian, but I can easily see how someone like Diana, who is exceptionally sensitive and grew up surrounded by unspoiled nature, may think "screw this" and give up on Man's World meat.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-03-21 10:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]janegray, 2009-03-21 11:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-03-21 11:14 am UTC

[info]bluefall
2009-03-21 10:00 am UTC (link)
Rucka, yeah.

As others have mentioned, it makes sense if it's for political reasons; there's a lot of animal cruelty and a certain degree of unsustainability (a pound of pork costs ~10x the energy and arable land to produce as a pound of corn, which wouldn't be a problem with a better distribution system but is a concern given the way the world works now) involved in the modern livestock industry, which one could reasonably extrapolate Diana washing her hands of and refusing to participate in. (Plus, growth hormones and that kind of thing might bug her.) It makes sense for her to not eat meat anywhere where she can't verify the source, and then go home and rock out on venison or have homegrown chicken at the Kent farm or whatever.

The problem is, Rucka doesn't remotely present it that way - the only explanation he ever gives is "if you could talk to animals, wouldn't you be a vegetarian?" which is so much bullshit it's ridiculous. One of the other aides follows it up with "that's not the only reason..." but if there's more, we never hear about it, and they all seem pretty sure that that's a major contributing factor. Major misfire on his part.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-03-21 08:29 am UTC (link)
I read your Joseph Campbell mention and got a little worried. Not nearly as bad as I'd imagined. Hurray!

I'm just glad no baby animals got thrown alive into a fire or the tribe's young choices for spring consummation ritual got purposefully crushed to death in lovehut.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ebailey140
2009-03-21 03:29 pm UTC (link)

An Irish Catholic I knew responded to a claim Wiccans used to make (Fortunately, most modern Wiccans don't make this claim) about their religion being the exact one practiced by the ancient Celts with "Then, shouldn't you be burning people alive in wicker baskets?"

Similarly, I've mentioned to Fundamentalist Christians, when they insist that all the Old Testament laws still apply, and that all Christians must keep practicing them (mainly, they're talking about things like homosexuality), that that means they can't trim their beards and should be bringing animals to Church for Sacrifice.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-03-21 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-03-21 11:00 pm UTC

[info]kenn_el
2009-03-21 08:49 am UTC (link)
Darn, I was hoping the Bat Mitzvah would somehow involve Bruce...and that Perez would involve better art. Off to enjoy a bacon omlet.

(Reply to this)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-21 10:02 am UTC (link)
Thanks for posting this. Definitely one of my favorites. ^_^

(Reply to this)


[info]scottyquick
2009-03-21 11:15 am UTC (link)
Diana lied :O!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bluefall
2009-03-21 11:30 am UTC (link)
Very poorly, you'll notice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]magus_69, 2009-03-22 03:02 am UTC

[info]mullon
2009-03-21 11:41 am UTC (link)
I still don't like Diana being a vegetarian. Always felt kinda preachy. Even more with Superman.

And I call bullshit on hunting down your food as somehow making it okay to eat. It's still killing something to satisfy yourself.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ebailey140, 2009-03-21 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stratosfyr, 2009-03-21 04:40 pm UTC

[info]thewickedqueen
2009-03-23 12:47 am UTC (link)
Where to begin?

First of all, attempting to add some character depth by considering what dietary choices Diana might make connected to a formative experience from her youth =/= preaching. FFS. To me, it actually makes these characters more rounded out and interesting - they go through a process of decision making, just like - gasp! - REAL people!

As for Pocahontas and The Lion King being the "most thoughtful" Disney movies... I don't even know where to begin ripping on that.
Pocahontas was othering, reductionist, simplistic and inaccurate. Many Native American people of Pocahontas' nationality were righteously pissed off with that movie.

The Lion King reinforced social hegemony - the "beautiful" people and the ones who could behave by their law and dictates were allowed to exist within society, wheras anyone else on the fringes (the skinny, lame Scar and the hyenas) were ostracized and considered worthless. How is that a good message to teach children? Especially as the characterization of the hyenas was also based on inaccurate stereotypes. And ESPECIALLY as it reflects our own screwed-up culture and the way we marginalize the disabled, mentally ill, "unattractive", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Finally... you're basically equating two incredibly different continents and their people (America & Africa) and ways of life as the same thing. Yeah, ancient civilizations didn't all think/feel the same about everything, just FYI. They weren't all the same just because they're ancient and therefore outside of your experience.
Don't forget that Native Americans are composed of many different nations, with their own languages, cultures and customs. The attitude towards the "circle of life" would've differed from tribe to tribe. It is offensive and racist to speak about them as though they are a single entity.

Furthermore, this ridiculous contempoary romanticization of the way ancient people viewed their NEED to hunt and the way they related to that and themselves as part of the infrastructure of their environment is absolutely a modern and invariably Western conceit, divorced from the reality of life where every day literally was a struggle for survival. It wasn't all peace-signs and spirituality, smoking incense and paying honor to the kill. It was about preserving the ecological balance so they could SURVIVE. And again - many, many different peoples had different philosophies, religion, rituals, beliefs and customs around this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thewickedqueen, 2009-03-23 12:50 am UTC

[info]thewickedqueen
2009-03-23 12:53 am UTC (link)
Oh yes and:

"Noble savage"

Hit wikipedia for that one.

(Reply to this)



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