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Tweak says, "you know how i do"

starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-23 23:27:00

Entry tags:

publisher: wildstorm, title: the authority

runespoor7's post of Jason Todd talking to Mia Dearden led to a thread discussion about billionaire vigilantes beating up poor criminals.

A panel from THE AUTHORITY: TRANSFER OF POWER shows that at least a few comic creators are aware of this.

"The Authority" was always pretty "out there" for superheroes. But that's Warren Ellis and Mark Millar for you.

For more than a few superheroes, actually being a superhero can be seen as a case of Noblesse Oblige. Noblesse Oblige can be seen as "With great power comes great responsibility... and a really smug sense of superiority."

It came back to Batman, as these things do. After all, we never really go into detail about how "well-off" the Kents were from farming, or how much Clark Kent's Daily Planet take-home pay is. Some seem to think it ties into "Lonely Place of Dying," that since Tim Drake's family is wealthy, Tim isn't as "street" as Jason Todd.

Quotes from users via http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/987439.html?thread=27947311#t27947311:

runespoor7 said: "The fact is, 'Oh, Jason was lower class and her turned out badly, and then he was replaced by Tim, who came from a good family the same side of the streets as Bruce and who did very well as Robin' leaves a strange impression."

lynxara said: "In particular, confronting the class issues at work in the Batman stuff is impossible without coming to the conclusion that most of the characters involved are selfish monsters so steeped in white privilege that they've lost all grasp of reality."

icon_uk said: "Dick was suddenly an ethnic Romany with angst about the likelihood of him ending up in jail like so many of his kin."

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sistermagpie
2009-09-24 06:38 pm UTC (link)

Well, in the most literal way, he is.

He is sometimes, yes. But he also fights against wealthy criminals and seems liked by the upstanding poor. Does the poor person getting harassed by a gang or mugged on the street think of Batman as "one of us?"

Historically, that's very different from being working-class, for instance.

Sure, different from working class, though siding with the ruling class meant the serving class knowing their place. Alfred's background now is that he was an actor for a while and was in the army, and has relatievs who are actors. He has all the polish of a person living amongst the elite, but he brings a little more color to the table than that.

I'm not sure it's fair to view Dick in the same way as the later kids as far as author intent is concerned, since his editorial history is so different and his social class didn't matter (much in the same way character psychology didn't matter) at the time he was created.

Yet his class wasn't changed when things started being played differently. It was made more part of his character. Even if his creators weren't originally planning to deal with the psychology of social class they still decided that their millionaire should take in an orphan from the circus rather than a kid from his background--I think it did matter. They would knew what kind of class a Depression-era traveling circus implied.

I don't really have my own argument for what it all means. I feel like there's a lot of different things at play along with the backgrounds. Thinking of the main team I get (hope I'm not making mistakes here):

Damian--European aristocratic
Bruce--super rich, old money, rare background.
Alfred--Family tradition of domestic service, supported himself as an actor and in the army.
Tim--Upper middle class. Wealthy enough for prep school etc., but not in Bruce's league.
Gordon--A cop, working often as a partner with Batman.
Barbara--Same background as Gordon.
Helena--Money, but mafia money.
Dick--family of headliners in a small circus, so brought up with working class people.
Steph--Lower middle class? Her mother's a nurse? Her dad's been in jail etc.
Jason--Homeless, underclass.
Cass--I suppose fairly wealthy beginnings, but bizarrely brought up, and then homeless when taken in.

For status I use "immoral" for any problems raised in that area.

Damian--Healthy, immoral, skilled
Bruce--Fake death, moral, skilled
Alfred--Healthy, moral, skilled
Tim--Healthy, moral (immoral in possible future, flirts with immorality, "crossing the line"), skilled
Gordon--healthy, moral, skilled
Barbara--disabled, moral, skilled
Dick--healthy, moral, skilled
Steph--died/resurrected, moral, unskilled
Jason--died/resurrected, mental issues/immoral, skilled
Cass--healthy, moral (turned evil temporarily), skilled, dropped

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runespoor7
2009-09-24 07:44 pm UTC (link)

I like how you think.

Does the poor person getting harassed by a gang or mugged on the street think of Batman as "one of us?"

I don't think it matters to them. Most people, when someone is saving them from something unpleasant, won't think 'what a privileged asshole', unless the situation is very special, I suppose. When they're not being saved, though, it's a different issue.

Yet his class wasn't changed when things started being played differently.

I think it was partly due because such changes were gradual, and partly because by the time it was important, retconning it would've been unthinkable. I don't know how much more part of his character it was made, but my knowledge of Pre-Crisis times is non-existent.

Dick's social background at the times of his creation mattered mostly, imo, in terms of Bruce (contrast with Bruce, making Bruce more sympathetic for taking a poor orphan than a rich one) and explaining how he became so acrobatic. And making him however superficially different from the reader, dramatically attractive.

I don't want to downplay it, though. It brings a lot to the Batfamily.

I think Tim would rank higher than upper middle class. I'd say he was upper class. Jim isn't part of the Batfamily in the same way as the others are, even making an exception for Alfred - both are different from the others in that their place in the Batfamily is determined from day one by their jobs. Both have also always been adults.

Tim--Healthy, moral (immoral in possible future, flirts with immorality, "crossing the line"), skilled
Jason--died/resurrected, mental issues/immoral, skilled
Cass--healthy, moral (turned evil temporarily), skilled, dropped

Don't think bringing in Tim's current state of being written is a fair reflection of the character - we don't know how it's going to turn out yet, and as for the possible future things, it's the same as Bruce being evil in alternate worlds.

Jason being skilled is relatively recent compared to the way he was consistently retconned as from the time of his death until-- uh. Winick writes Jason very competent, I'm not sure if there aren't yet writers going 'Jason lacked training/skill as Robin'.

Cass' turn to the evil side wasn't, I think, originally supposed to be temporary, but actually I'm not sure citing Cass one way or another makes sense in this context. The issues with the way she's been written, imo, owes far more to her genetics, race, and possibly gender, than with socio-economics. Social background seems non-existent with her.

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sistermagpie
2009-09-24 09:07 pm UTC (link)

When they're not being saved, though, it's a different issue.

Yup. At the extremes you've got: any time a rich guy gets involved he's being condescending / class doesn't matter at all. In the middle there's a big grey area. Somebody actually might feel differently about Batman if they knew he was Bruce Wayne. Someone else wouldn't.

Re: Gordon especially, I realized I was originally leaving him out since he's not on the superhero team. But it's one of the unique features of the Bat-verse that Batman works with Gordon, the regular cop. Batman's like an extra power for Gordon, the legitimate arm of the law.

Though I don't know if it matters that he and Alfred are adults or defined by their jobs--their jobs are also very defining of their class, I'd think. Gordon's interaction with Bruce Wayne might be different than his interaction with Batman. One could say that they're okay as long as they don't try to be superheroes, but that doesn't really seem to be the case with those two especially. (Alfred's now leading the Outsiders.)

Don't think bringing in Tim's current state of being written is a fair reflection of the character

I did at first just list him as moral, which I think is correct. But then, a lot of Jason's "badness" pre-death were (often retconned-in) hints. It seemed like it was beginning to maybe become enough of Tim's fundamental character that it could be included. Though his flirting with darkness doesn't seem like foreshadowing, just a character challenge. But it does still depend on him having specific moral cracks.

Jason's being very skilled is definitely recent, but I got the impression he was pretty standard in his abilities as Robin, with the main problems being emotional, which also sometimes led to him not being diligent. So his problem wasn't incompetence.

Like, for me it seems like Jason and Steph are the two who were too unstable to succeed, but in different ways. Jason was too angry (ironically it's Jason who's more likely to see criminals from any background as scum to be eliminated, but he also comes from the underclass himself so it's a different dynamic) and it made him reckless. Steph seems written as enthusiastic but fatally & incurably short-sighted.

Interesting, too, that both those character are linked to Tim. Tim was created to work in ways Jason didn't. (I know him being rich and educated was intentional on that front.) Steph was created as a supporting character in Tim's book, someone for him to play off of--which she could have done as a girl from his own class, but she wasn't written as that.

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runespoor7
2009-09-24 09:37 pm UTC (link)

their jobs are also very defining of their class

Yes. Their jobs determine their class, unlike the others, who could be any class in order to be heroes. That's why I don't think they count in the same way, though the way they're written as moral and allies of Batman is still interesting; after all, there could have been stories in which they weren't, they might've become bad guys*, but they didn't.

*I think even with comics' love for status-quo that could've happened?

but I got the impression he was pretty standard in his abilities as Robin, with the main problems being emotional, which also sometimes led to him not being diligent. So his problem wasn't incompetence.

I had the feeling that the two were often linked. Given Bruce's emphasis on emotional control, it makes sense. Bruce tolerates Dick not being closed-off because 1)Dick proved that he's good enough to be still alive in spite of it (post-Jason, I get the feeling that lack of control = BAD FATED TO DIE for Bruce), and 2)Bruce likes it.

Jason's recklessness has been greatly exaggerated since his death. It wasn't being reckless that killed him, it was trusting his mother with Bruce's blessings. Steph, personality-wise, is close both to Dick and to Jason. War Drums - Gabrych in general - shows well the parallels between Jason and Steph. A lot of them are in Bruce's head, but it's an interesting comparison if only to think about what Bruce fears and what Batman looks for in a Robin.

There's so little making sense about the time Steph spent as Robin - even less making sense in Robin than in other series - that Steph being short-sighted is in many ways a retcon. I can't even blame Batman for not telling her he was Matches Malone, not when I'm supposed to believe that Steph would've seen the Case in the cave, would've seen Jason's name, and wouldn't have tried to find out who the kid was.

which she could have done as a girl from his own class, but she wasn't written as that.

Making her the Cluemaster's daughter was a handy and interesting way to put her in the story. Maybe DC thought Tim was enough as ar as upper class was concerned, and making Steph a girl from the same class would've felt too forced for the reader? I don't know, when I start thinking about how she could've been from the upper class, I end with the feeling that she wouldn't be Steph. She might be Kate Bishop, though.

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	mysteryfan 2009-09-24 09:51 pm UTC (link)
	even less making sense in Robin than in other series - that Steph being short-sighted is in many ways a retcon. I'm reading War Games right now and just trying to understand. Are you saying those books are part of a retcon for Steph? (I don't blame Bruce for not telling her he's Matches, either.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mysteryfan 2009-09-24 09:54 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, I like this list! (Reply to this) (Parent)

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