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Sam Winchester ([info]gradeafreak) wrote in [info]colligo_threads,
@ 2013-03-01 02:42:00

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Entry tags:john winchester, sam winchester

WHO: Sam and John Winchester
WHAT: Sam has new memories from back home. He decided his dad needed to know.
WHEN: Not long after this.
WHERE: Random diner.
RATING: TBD [probably a bit high, due to language if nothing else]
STATUS: In Progress

Sam was nervous. It was a strange feeling, considering how rarely it happened anymore, but he was definitely nervous. And with good measure, too, he figured. After all, he was about to sit down with his dad - a man he didn't always get along with, even on the best of days - and bring up a subject that had pretty much been off limits for his entire life. Worst yet, not only was he going to bring up said subject, he was also going to be informing his dad that something he'd believed for his entire life had been wrong. Very, very wrong, in fact.

Still. Easy or not, Sam knew it needed to be done. It wasn't fair, keeping something like this to himself, and Dean was right. If Henry showed up in the city, and knew who they were, that would just make the situation even worse. So really, he had no choice in the matter. He just had to suck it up, and deal.

At least, that's what he kept telling himself. Truth be told, he knew logically that he could always pretend he'd never remembered anything new from back home. He could just play dumb, with only Dean the wiser, and hope for the best. However, there was a part of him that simply couldn't do that. It was wrong, it was selfish, and it would likely backfire in a pretty spectacular way. So... yeah. He really didn't have a choice, the more he thought about it.

Making his way into the diner, he picked a table that offered clear access to both the front door as well as the emergency exit yet didn't have anyone sitting at any surrounding tables. Ideally, Sam would have liked to have done this in his apartment. However, he hoped that having the discussion in public would keep his dad from reacting too poorly to the information. Which was pretty unlikely, really, but it was too late to change his plans now. Mostly because John had just walked through the door.

Taking a deep breath, Sam exhaled slowly then raised his arm to get his dad's attention and wave him over.


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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-02 03:21 am UTC (link)
"You'll get there one day," John said quietly. "Closing the gates would go a long way to that, but I know you, Sam. You'll figure out how to get that normal life for yourself eventually, without the job getting in the way, even if it isn't the one that you first figured it would be," He said, a brief hesitation in the movement before he reached across the table and patted Sam's arm lightly. "And hell, if Dean can manage it here, given enough time, you might as well. Not that there's any reason to try and rush that, but it's still a thought."

The silence after that was brief before John offered Sam a bit of a smile and a chuckled, "So. Now that that's out of the way, you want to find somewhere we can actually go and get a drink because I sure as hell need one, and don't tell me you're satisfied with just water."

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-02 03:39 am UTC (link)

Sam smiled, lightly, at his dad's words of support. He knew John meant well and he appreciated it. He did. He just didn't have quite the optimistic outlook that his dad seemed to possess. He had, for a while, but the second he'd seen that blood after he'd coughed, he'd just known. When he closed the gates of Hell, he wasn't going to be coming back from it.

He didn't say any of that, though. Instead he chuckled a bit. "Yeah. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Dean being married with kids. That's just... wow." At the question about grabbing a beer, he laughed a little more. "And yes. Definitely. A drink sounds awesome, actually." Water was great, definitely better than soda, but sometimes you really just needed some alcohol. And this was definitely one of those times.

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 02:10 am UTC (link)
"You're not the grandpa in this situation," John said with a laugh as he stood, digging out a few bills to put a tip on the table, adding a few extra for them having to deal with his little pyromaniac fit earlier. "Not exactly a position that I ever expected to be in," He said in all honesty. Not because he hadn't expected Sam and Dean to have families. He had, but John had had no illusions that he would come out of the encounter with Azazel alive. Granted, it hadn't happened the way he'd always figured it would. There had been no blaze of glory, no final showdown, at least, not initially, and as he stood there, looking at his son, John felt an overwhelming sense of relief descend over him.

He was alive. He was alive, and he was with his family, and that was more than he'd ever expected to have at this age. He had to admit, as complicated as this place could be, he was grateful for that.

"You want to head to the Roadhouse or somewhere else? I'm sure El would forgive us if we needed a bit of a break from the same old faces."

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 02:51 am UTC (link)

Sam laughed as well as he also stood. "True," he agreed easily enough, "but you have to admit, if nothing else, his kids are definitely about as Winchester as you can get." Which was... a bit of an understatement, really. From what he could tell, those kids could probably run circles around him, Dean, and John in the hunting department. And they weren't even close to fully grown, yet. It was almost a frightening thought, really, but the one saving grace (in Sam's opinion, at least) was that, here, hunting really wasn't a viable occupation. So while the kids might be damn good at it, they'd never have to actually do it. It really was the best combination he could think of and a small part of him was very impressed Dean had managed to find such a balance. Mostly because it was Dean.

Giving the waitress a smile as he and his dad headed out of the diner, Sam turned up the collar of his jacket against the chill of the wind in the air. "Somewhere else," he finally decided. "I'm not sure I'm really up to seeing Ellen and Jo, right now." He still had to sort through his memories, had to make sense of some things that just weren't adding up. Having them around, especially with how damn intuitive they could both be, would likely only make that a public affair and Sam really didn't want that to happen.

"So," he spoke up again, after a moment or two, casting a sideways glance at John, "I... guess I should mention that Lucifer stopped by my place a while back." There was a clear sound of annoyance in his tone at the admission, although he grudgingly added, "Apparently, he just wanted to chat. I'm... still not really sure what to make of that."

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 03:11 am UTC (link)
John couldn't blame him at all. As much as he adored Ellen, and he did more than he could really explain, there were times when one just needed to be away from people that they knew, and this was obviously one of those times for Sam. Stepping out next to him, John walked before blinking at his son's admission. There was a small flare in him, a momentary anger and desire to make sure that the angel knew never to bother his children again, before it was snuffed out by the realization that if he did that, he would be doing, once more, the exact thing that he needed to avoid. So, instead, John just frowned, glancing back over at Sam before asking a simple question.

"What, exactly, does a chat entail?"

The idea that all the Prince of Darkness wanted to do was talk was something that John was having trouble with, but he supposed words likely were the angel's strongest weapon. It was a good thing he trusted Sam to be strong enough to ignore most of what he had to say.

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 03:23 am UTC (link)

Sam sighed and shrugged his shoulders a bit. He knew how bizarre what he was about to say would probably sound. But he also knew that he needed to be very clear that Lucifer really had just been there to talk, because otherwise his dad was likely going to try to go after the Archangel once again. Considering how that had blown up rather spectacularly in his face the last time he'd even mentioned it, Sam really wanted to avoid that outcome if at all possible.

"That's just it," he finally admitted. "He didn't really say all that much, really. It was almost like he was trying to, I don't know, prove that he really is trying to change like he claims. Like, uh, he wanted my approval or something." Glancing left then right before crossing the street, Sam continued to explain.

"He tried talking about Adam, but dropped that subject when I told him to back off. Same thing with you and mom. He pointed out how much he thought we had in common. He talked about Dean, and pointed out that Dean had gotten over him being, you know, him, and said he was sure I would too." Sam snorted a bit at that particular concept. Even if he had to admit - although pretty much only to himself - that Lucifer definitely was acting different than he had in their own reality, that didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Lucifer was a master manipulator. The master of manipulation, in fact.

But still.

"The thing is," he finally admitted with another soft sigh, "I know Lucifer. Between being his vessel, then being in the cage with him, my BS meter for him is pretty spot-on. And... I didn't get that vibe from him, this time. He wasn't trying to convince me to say yes. He wasn't trying to glean any information from me. Best I can tell, he just... wanted to talk and seemed almost, I don't know, hurt, when I didn't immediately return the sentiment. Weird, right?"

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 03:35 am UTC (link)
"So he was...looking for what? Approval?" John asked, feeling himself entirely out of his depth. It was one thing to find out that there was some moratorium on them going after creatures of the night, of taking out things that would otherwise need to be taken out, because there was apparently some sort of system in place. It was also one thing to be told to back off the angel by God herself because of the repercussions that his actions might have. But hearing that the Prince of Darkness was expressing...what? Some sort of contrition? That just didn't make any damn sense at all.

"I will be lucky if this place doesn't completely mess up my head," John said, raising a hand to press against his forehead before turning to look back at Sam. "If anything, he should have at least realized you wouldn't exactly be receptive to anything he had to say. All things considered."

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 04:01 am UTC (link)

"Yeah, no," Sam replied with a shake of his head. "Lucifer definitely doesn't think that way. To him, if Dean's okay with him being around? I should, logically, follow suit. Especially since he's convinced we have so much in common." Which bothered Sam, a great deal more than he was willing to admit. Mostly because he couldn't say with absolute certainty that it wasn't true, at least to some extent.

Not about to let his thoughts travel down that very dangerous path, at least not at the moment, he continued speaking. "And yeah. I think that's exactly what he wanted. Approval. I don't know why, I don't want to know why, but he was acting like he almost, I don't know, needed me to be okay with him, now." Pausing for a moment, Sam finally said the one thing that had been bothering him for some time now.

"The thing is... I think there might actually be a chance he's telling the truth about trying to do differently, here. He isn't a liar, not directly, at least, and, well, I mean... Dean is giving him a chance. It's not really like him to make that big of an oversight, you know?"

Nodding his head toward a bar just up the block, he added almost absently, "Think that'll do the trick?" he questioned. If nothing else, he definitely needed a beer before delving anymore into Lucifer's psyche and why he did the things he did. It wasn't exactly one of Sam's favorite places to be, and for damn good reason.

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 04:15 am UTC (link)
"Probably work as well as anywhere else," John said, an edge of humor in his voice as he spotted the bar up ahead. There were plenty of options in the city. It was a city, after all, and most tended to have two bars for every block or at least somewhere close to that, so if it saved them from walking any further, there would do as well as the next they might come across. "And you're right. Dean's smart enough not to let someone like that close to his family if there were any chance that he'd actually hurt them. And consider he doesn't seem to hesitate at letting Lucifer anywhere near his kids..."

It was a hard thing to wrap his mind around. The other angels? Sure. That John wouldn't have had too much of an issue with, but Lucifer, father of demons and king of hell? That was just... hard to accept.

"The question for me, if we're being honest, is why would he even... care what you think?" John asked, looking over at Sam with a heavy curiosity in his expression. "He might be an angel, but he may as well be a demon, and they don't exactly get attached to the people that they use as transport."

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 04:45 am UTC (link)

Sam didn't want to answer his dad's question as to why Lucifer cared what he thought. He really, really didn't. Because if he explained, if he made it all make sense to John, of all people, that would be also admitting that he did understand the Archangel. That they had all the things in common that Lucifer claimed.

However, he also knew that he really should explain if only because John Winchester was definitely not the type of man who was content not understanding something that mattered to him. Which meant there was every chance, if he couldn't lay it out in a way that John would understand, there was every chance the man would seek out Lucifer himself to try and demand the answer directly from the source. Sam wasn't about to let that happen, if he could help it.

Stepping into the bar, Sam waited until they were seated at a table before answering. Both because he wasn't about to discuss something like this within earshot of the few patrons they passed and also because he needed those few moments to gather his thoughts into some semblance of order. Once they were both sitting down, though, he faced his dad and did his best to try and make him understand the Prince of Darkness in the way Sam had to grudgingly admit he did.

Because that, apparently, was his life now.

"Okay," he said with a heaviness in his voice, "here's the thing you need to really get about Lucifer, the thing most people don't. He pretty much thrives on both attention and acceptance. It was one of the main reasons for his Fall from Grace, actually." Not that Sam really wanted to start discussing actual theology, but aside from bringing up how Lucifer had acted as a hallucination inside his mind, this was the best example he could think of on the spot. So, with a slight pause, he continued.

"God created humans and Lucifer hated us, right? Now, the Bible talks about how his hatred for us stemmed from his refusal to bow down before us. In fact, if you asked him, he, uh, would probably say he was kicked out for loving God so much that he refused to put anyone - even humans - before him." Sam snorted softly, part of him unable to believe he was even thinking all of this, much less saying it. Yet, he kept going. He'd already started. Might as well finish.

"But, well, the thing is, it really had a lot more to do with not wanting to share God's attention with us," he stated. "He had been God's favorite then, all of a sudden, he wasn't. And nothing he did, including taking a human and turning it into something... else, worked." Sam swallowed, hard, then added with a shrug, "So, he basically threw a giant temper tantrum and wound up in the cage because of it."

Pausing, Sam snorted suddenly. "So having me, his one true vessel, not willing to pay him the time of day? Pretty much drives him nuts."

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 04:55 am UTC (link)
"So," John said, pausing as he tried to wrap his mind around everything that Sam was telling him. It was obvious that his son had some experience with Lucifer to be able to put all of that plainly, but John wasn't about to question it. His boys had been through a lot since he'd been gone, and the fact was, they'd managed, somehow, to come out of the other side of it relatively intact. There was no point in him picking at the details of how and why they knew certain things. "Basically, he's the big brother trying to throw out the new baby with the trash?" John asked, having a hard time not laughing at the thought. That was just so, so...

Human.

"That's...actually rather sad," John admitted, a grudging hesitance in his voice. The idea of empathizing at all with the devil was not something that John liked, but well, he couldn't say he didn't understand what it felt like to feel as though you suddenly didn't matter to someone who you loved beyond all reasonable levels. Even if the situation was extremely different.

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 05:17 am UTC (link)

"Yeah," Sam agreed with a soft snort. "That's... pretty much it, exactly. And yeah, it's pretty sad." Which wasn't something Sam wanted to admit, because that meant feeling some inkling of sympathy for Lucifer. However, try as he might, part of him did get it. He had spent pretty much his entire life convinced his dad had loved Dean more. The two had always been so close, with Dean always doing what was expected of him, and it had always felt that nothing Sam had done had ever really measured up. He knew, now, that his feelings hadn't been right. Not even in the slightest. However, Lucifer's fears had... been pretty well-founded. God did prefer humanity over the angels. It was not only a fact, but pretty much the reason most of the higher ranking angels weren't really their biggest fans. They just did what was expected of them. Like Dean. While Lucifer had rebelled. Like Sam.

And that was when it really and truly hit him just how much he and Lucifer had in common. That what Lucifer had been trying to explain when he'd stopped by for his visit was about as accurate as anyone could be. Quickly he turned, flagging down a waitress and ordering a couple of beers. He was pretty sure he had never needed one more badly in his life than he did right now.

Once the beers were ordered, Sam cleared his throat and looked back to John. "I still don't really get what made him try to change, here," he admitted, deciding that a slight change in topic might help calm his racing thoughts a bit. "With Lucifer, the way he is, the way he works, there had to be a catalyst. He wouldn't just wake up one day and decide to give humanity a chance. That's just... not going to happen."

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 05:37 am UTC (link)
"Maybe there was," John said. It was impossible to tell just what those were. It was possible that Lucifer himself couldn't even pinpoint them exactly. Few people could ever spell out into words things which motivated change within them or the objects which worked to shape the sort of person that they turned out to be. Not unless they were big events, things that you just couldn't forget like death or failure.

"Maybe there were a lot of little things that all rolled up into one. Or maybe it was just having his family back together in a space where they didn't have to consistently fight over ideology or existence. Beyond asking, I wouldn't be able to tell you, Sam," John said with a shrug.

"We could sit here and speculate all day, but really, I guess it's a simple enough question," John said, looking over at Sam with a thoughtful expression. "What is it that could make someone actually hate humanity less when they've been set their wholes lives to loathe their very existence?"

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 05:59 am UTC (link)

Sam didn't want to think logically about this. He really, really didn't. Sure, normally he was the first to turn to logic to work through something he didn't understand, no matter how baffling it might be. However, in this instance, when it came to Lucifer, he wanted nothing more than to just shut the conversation down and not consider anything else about it.

Except, he couldn't really do that. He'd already brought up the topic and, besides that, he knew what the answer was without even having to really think it through. Might as well just say it, and be done with it. It wasn't like it wasn't already bouncing around inside of his head, itching to get out.

"Finding humans, or at least a human, that is tolerable," he answered with a soft sigh. His brow furrowed as he took the idea a step further, as he was wont to do in most situations. "And, in Lucifer's case, he, uh, would have had to have found at least someone willing to accept him, no matter what."

He fell silent as the waitress finally arrived. Taking one of the beers, he stared at the bottle for a moment. Between the furrowing of his brow and the tightening of his jaw, it was obvious he was sorting through things in his head and had reached a conclusion he was not happy with. Gripping the bottle harder, he raised his gaze back to his dad.

"Dean, or his wife. Or one of their kids," he said flatly. "That's... the only thing that fits."

The betrayal he felt in that moment left a bitter taste in his mouth and tugged at his heart in a way that nothing else ever really had. Stiffly, he raised his beer to his lips and took a drink.

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-03 06:42 am UTC (link)
It made sense, as much as John hated to admit it, that it had to be his son that was tied into Lucifer's betterment of himself. Who else in this place, that wasn't an angel, would Lucifer have as strong a tie to in order to actually care what they thought? It would only be a Winchester that would be able to move him to such heights, and it most certainly wasn't Adam. Honestly, John wasn't sure how to feel about it. He was surprised, for one thing, to think that any of them could have that much of an effect on a creature that powerful especially one with the respect and devotion that Lucifer warranted from his demons. Though, the thought belated occurred, whether that even applied anymore of Lucifer was trying to turn white hat again. Maybe he could track down Meg later and ask.

Either way, it wasn't exactly something they could do anything about. There had been enough fighting with them trying to get Dean to change the way he was behaving here, and John didn't want to spark that up again.

Taking a long drag off his beer, John turned his attention back to his son before heaving a sigh, "I guess we're just going to have to accept the fact that we're the ones in the minority here. Most of the people in this place seem up to giving him a second chance. We're just going to have to roll with it."

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[info]gradeafreak
2013-03-03 06:58 am UTC (link)

It was clear in everything from the way Sam set his beer down, to the look on his face, and especially in his tone when he spoke, that he was not pleased with the idea of just going along with everything. And, really, who could blame him? He was the one who had been worn like a cheap suit. He was the one who'd had to fight with everything he'd had to regain control, not just to save his brother but to save the whole damn world. He'd been tortured in just about every way imaginable by Lucifer and now he was expected to just forget all of that because... why? Lucifer said he was trying to change?

"Yeah," he finally bit out in a clipped tone, "I... don't know if I can do that." Drawing in a breath to calm himself, the hand not wrapped around his beer flexing reflexively, he admitted, "I'm trying. I am. I mean, I didn't even banish him when he showed up in my apartment like he had every right to be there. But I don't know if I can keep it up. I just..."

He sighed and took another drink of his beer. Setting it back down, he sighed again. "It's more than just having been his vessel, dad," he tried his best to explain. "It's more than even being stuck in the cage with him. He was here," he tapped at his temple, "all the time, for a long time. He almost tricked me into killing Dean, all through the power of suggestion. He pretty much literally drove me insane. And if it weren't for Cas... if Cas hadn't done whatever it was that he did to transfer all of that to him..." Sam sighed again. "I'd probably still be in that hospital, stuck inside my own head. I can't just forget that. I can't just get over it. I just... can't."

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[info]allisawwasevil
2013-03-06 01:40 am UTC (link)
"I understand that, Sam. I do," John said, a deep sentiment in his voice. He did understand. After all, he wouldn't be able to forgive and forget if someone was asking him to. It was hard enough with Meg here when he knew what she was, what she had done, even with all of the added information beyond that which he'd been given. But he was working past that, slowly, working to try and build some sort of foundation for understanding even if it didn't really settle well in him. Because it was expected, it was necessary for him to survive in this place.

But the last thing that John thought should be necessary for Sam to survive was for him to have to commiserate with someone who had put him through so much, who had planned to put them all through a true hell on earth.

"But this place," John started, knowing all too well that it was likely that someone would expect that out of his son eventually. "This place, they're not exactly kind about us wanting to keep our own ideals intact. Maybe they'll give you the leeway on Lucifer because he is Lucifer, but I wouldn't count on it from everyone. Still," He said, offering Sam a hint of a smile. "That doesn't mean for you to leave yourself unprotected. How in the hell do you even defend yourself from these sons of bitches anyway?"

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