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Tweak says, "there's trouble in Shangi-La"

deezabee (iseethelight) wrote in capseroo,
@ 2017-11-20 13:34:00

Entry tags:

! male, #race/ethnicity: white, *requested, actor: ben barnes, age: 30s, also: beard, eye color: brown, hair color: brown, tv show: the punisher, ~icons: baobabble, ~icons: otokodake, ~icons: squarebox

Ben Barnes, 2, 088 caps

BEN BARNES AS BILLY RUSSO IN THE PUNISHER

2, 088 CAPS, REMOVED FOR SPACE, ICONS BELOW

I laughed several times in the show because of how often people talked about how pretty he is IN THE SHOW. He is very, very pretty. I thought he did an excellent acting job, and frankly, I've always been a big fan so it was exciting to see him in this role. He was in more dark shots than a lot of the others. Classically.

Spoilers in the comments for him in the show.

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grapecase
2017-11-21 10:56 pm UTC (link)

To be fair. I'm glad it is a problematic like. Because Frank is a problematic person who does awful things. And honestly, I often was like - YOU SHOULD BE IN JAIL, you sad fuck. I'm guessing you are finished via the caps? So I'll say, the whole handwaving of the person he killed. Like I get it was war. And I am glad they did show he didn't absolve himself and had a negative reaction. But none are excuses. And I wanted more than Mirco being well Frank beats himself up enough~ when Dinah found out.

But you do make a good point. About that. The caring. I often felt like so much of it was that. Like having it so connected to his dream sequences and his consciousness. ROFL. It's funny about perspective. How they feel she had too much screentime. And we're like I wish she had more. And so much of it wasn't tied to him (though, yeah I get why). *snorts* But yeah I feel you.

ROFLMAO. I found Micro amusing. I do feel he too was forgiven too quickly. Which ended up souring me a bit. But on the other hand. I sort of get it.

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iseethelight
2017-11-21 11:05 pm UTC (link)

The thing that makes Frank different from his enemies is he feels bad for what he did, and I guess his friends/fans would claim that him killing bad people is a noble cause, but I'm like ... is it though. One would think that a redemption arc is when someone acknowledges their issues and then actually changes, not goes on a rampage and kills a bunch more people, even if they are bad people. And Frank himself is hard on himself, like he knows he is not a good person, so I respect that about him, he's very self-aware. It's everyone else that's the problem lol. And you know, fucking stop it Frank. I was so grateful when he finally put everything on the record with Dinah, it was a good step for him. It sucked she didn't actually get to emotionally go through the realization of what he did, like oh poor Frank though.

oh poor frank lol like yes his family died, because of his own damn choices in life, he did terrible things, he got involved with bad people, even if he thought it was just orders or whatever, that was still a life he chose. His family was innocent, yes, and you can blame the people who killed them absolutely, but he also is partly responsible, which is where the guilt comes from. and again, HE is really good at holding himself accountable. It's one of the things I genuinely like the most about him. And maybe he is changing, I'm honestly not sure, we'll have to see where he goes from here.

But it's like all about framing. If you took the exact same character with all the same facts and framed him as a villain, it would absolutely be the same. You'd barely have to change anything about him outside of who was the "hero" in that situation. He was the villain to Dinah, for example, i mean sure they became allies but before that they weren't. Sorry this is all my ongoing issues with the Punisher as a character and it's not so much him but the characters and fans who enable him lol.

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grapecase
2017-11-21 11:10 pm UTC (link)

"but the characters and fans who enable him lol."

I'll come back to the rest you wrote. But this. This I think is, in part, of my issue with him and Curt. And, eventually, that whole Micro convo to Dinah about saving Frank despite her learning he killed HER PARTNER. It's like I do ... I don't want to say love. But then I do (or maybe I love the concept, the execution, and delivery. But not the him? If that makes sense.) But COME ON!

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	grapecase 2017-11-21 11:11 pm UTC (link)
	Like maybe I shouldn't talk. Because my basic ass lowkey ships (kind of) Kastle. BUT I STILL WANT HIM TO GO TO JAIL. Even though we know THAT never works. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

iseethelight
2017-11-21 11:14 pm UTC (link)

LOL as I just replied to you Karen's relationship to him is baffling to me. I mean they have GREAT chemistry, I totally see it, it's just weird because it feels like they're bending her character to support him more. There was a lot of me going SRSLY THO when she's like oh he's a different kind of mass murderer than this bomber guy!!!! it's totally okay for him!!!!

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	grapecase 2017-11-21 11:37 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah. I wish they had called that out more. When she was like. WHY WOULD HE THINK I WOULD BE OKAY WITH THIS? And I was like really Karen. REALLY KAREN. FOR REALLY FOR REAL??? I honestly feel they give her more agency with Frank. BUT I can see why people would feel that way when she does thinks like that. LOL. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	iseethelight 2017-11-21 11:45 pm UTC (link)
	OF COURSE HE WOULD THINK YOU'RE OKAY WITH THIS GOOD LORD WOMAN. I guess they give her more agency with Frank but only so much as she's still in his life and what he wants and his story. She's still not having her own agency in terms of her own plot and departure from the dudes in her life and what they need (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	grapecase 2017-11-22 12:08 am UTC (link)
	I think that is more at fault of them wanting to keep her backstory mysterious~ and trying to do so much with her at once. So it's hard to see the lines at times. (And also bc she fucking just waltzed into journalism bc they were like whoops we need one after we killed the black dude) (Reply to this) (Parent)

iseethelight
2017-11-21 11:12 pm UTC (link)

Well I kept thinking that about Karen, I've thought about this for awhile. I actually like Karen a lot but her behavior with him and her behavior with Matt is so counter and I'm really confused. Because she was constantly on Matt like YOU NEED TO QUIT and THIS IS BAD FOR YOU and DO NOT CROSS THE LINE. And really frustrated at him for being DD. But she is like weirdly 100% behind Castle outside of just wanting him to be safe???? He is a mass murderer!!!!! How does he get a pass????

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grapecase
2017-11-21 11:33 pm UTC (link)

I think it's a matter of truth and identity. It's a bit of that DC-Cartoon of - Lois Lane likes Bruce Wayne but not the Batman. Loves Superman but not Clark, I feel. I think she fell in love with Matt. I think it's less what he does and more he isn't what she thought. Just like I feel Karen is that perfect picket fence for Matt. He is the same for her. I also think that (I'm piecing together what I've read Deb say in interviews) she feels Matt, the Daredevil Matt would judge her sins harder than regular Matt?

While I know, from how she reacts to Frank and from interviews, Frank is a matter of 'if he can be absolved, then I can'. What she did is no where near Frank. But from what I can tell she's done something else. And I don't think she's 100%. I wish they had better explained her going from BYE to being like welp, I'm glad you're okay. I think she's resigned and I think she better understands that Frank needs it. I don't think she understands (or is ready to accept) that Matt does.

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	grapecase 2017-11-21 11:35 pm UTC (link)
	I think it's also that parallel thing. She identifies with something dark in Frank. That I guess she feel Matt doesn't have. In a way, it's sort of - though not entirely - where Matt won't listen when she's like I GOT THIS. And Frank is like, lol you were about to shoot a hole in my head weren't you? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

iseethelight
2017-11-21 11:39 pm UTC (link)

I guess, I just feel like it's a really inconsistent way of writing her. She seems like a completely different person around Frank than how they represent her in DD, and I get that could be her putting on a facade, but I don't think they've been very clear about her motivations. In general I find her lack of consistency frustrating. And her lack of holding Frank accountable for anything frustrating. I find everyone's lack of holding Frank accountable frustrating lol. I guess I just find hers particularly frustrating when I feel she holds other people to a different standard. But I guess that it makes sense it's because she sees Matt as someone better or someone who should/could be better, and that Frank's kind of a lost cause so she accepts him as he is.

IDK I just really get this sense that they warp her character to whichever dude she's playing off of at the time and I'd like to see her get more of her own story. When she's doing her own thing I'm like YES LET US CONTINUE THIS.

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grapecase
2017-11-21 11:54 pm UTC (link)

Nah, I feel you. I think they shot themselves in the foot with a lot of her. Setting her so quickly as that ideal girl for Matt. Her entire frickin journalist storyline. (I do feel she did more before but yeah in the Punisher it was a bit more of a slide). I think also it's hurt with Matt.

SOMEONE SAID THAT. LOL. Someone was like they prefer her with Foggy, if anyone. Because they sense that they twist her for Matt or for Frank as the LI they need at any given moment.

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iseethelight
2017-11-22 03:50 am UTC (link)

Yes and Foggy of all people I think would be like ... 100% supportive, understanding, would never want her to change, would of course give her all the agency in the world if she wanted it. I don't think it falls under the nice guy trope, because while he had a crush on her, he also moved on as soon as he saw where it was going and without any issue. And he's not constantly in danger or giving her gray hairs lol. I am all about Foggy and Karen basically.

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grapecase
2017-11-24 09:02 pm UTC (link)

Right? I don't think it does either. He never treats her like "a little lady" or some prize he has to work to earn. Yeah, he worries about her. But it's not like he worries about her MORE than he worries about Matt. He doesn't want her to go into danger, but he doesn't want Matt going into danger either. He also finds her capable besides (other than being against her running around kicking and being friends with bad guys).

Me too. TBH. I like Kastle but I am pretty sure I would drop it if Foggy and Karen became viable. BC they were my first ship. I thought for sure they would go that way. It made most sense to me.

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iseethelight
2017-11-24 10:00 pm UTC (link)

I like Kastle, there's definitely chemistry there, but I don't think it'd be the healthiest option for Karen lol. Foggy is the healthiest option for both of them! I really want them both to find happiness. They don't NEED to find it together, but it'd be good for them. But it may be she needs to deal with her shit before she gets to that point too. In the comics he was like that for Liz too if I remember.

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grapecase
2017-11-21 11:26 pm UTC (link)

You're right though. In any other situation he would be a villain. I was thinking over your response as I was warming up dinner. And I thought of Fisk. Fisk is a villain. You feel badly for him, as we stated before. But his actions - his methods if not his goal - are wrong. Sure, people could maybe argue for them (he certainly did). But the difference (one could say) between him and Frank is who he hurts / who he works with.

It's one of the things I really liked about DD. Actually, what I like about most the Netflix Marvels. The parallels. Matt vs Fisk. Matt vs Frank (you're one bad day from becoming me). Matt vs Elektra (Stick. How he raised them vs what he used them for). Pops' kids in Luke Cage are little less obvious but still there. (Luke vs Misty vs Cottonmouth. Cottonmouth vs Mariah. And so on).

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iseethelight
2017-11-21 11:30 pm UTC (link)

Yep, Frank kills bad people, so he's okay, but I'm like not entirely on that train lol. I think he creates plenty of chaos and violence being who he is. He doesn't inspire the way Luke or DD does, for example. I'm not saying he has to, but his actions DID have consequences, it did cause people like the bomber to get inspired, not that he intended it that way, but if you go around murdering bad guys and other people start getting ideas, did you hurt or help the world? OH AND it's not like he cares if we're being honest, he's not like the others in the sense he cares a lot about New York City. It isn't all about saving his block or his people. So that's why I struggle with his character because WHAT IS HIS ACTUAL GOAL? HIS PURPOSE? revenge? Because that's kind of dull as a long term story. What's his goal now that they're dead? It's not that it's a bad thing to have a character question that, it's more that I have a hard time being into a PROTAGONIST who hits that point.

Yep you're right. And that's why Frank was a great foil! He was a great side character, and I did like him a lot on DD. I just never thought he should be the star of his own show and despite being entertained by it, I still think it was a pointless sort of endeavor. But at least it wasn't insulting. Like Iron Fist.

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grapecase
2017-11-21 11:48 pm UTC (link)

I don't know how much I'm on that train. I did like that there were consequences. I did like, as you said, he was self-aware. Your questions, however, I will say I did like that the story posed them. Karen did. I think Curtis did as well. And even the whole him 'wanting death' as he got closer to his goal ... but choosing home (Which idk if I was clear on what that was. Life? Healing? More killing?).

WELL, I MEAN. It gave us Dinah, Billy, Curtis, Dinah's parents ( I WANT MORE OF THEM).

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iseethelight
2017-11-22 03:53 am UTC (link)

He IS very self-aware, it's like his redeeming quality for me. Hahhaa his redemption arc for me is his acknowledging that he is not a good person. IDK I'm not even sure what life without revenge will look like for him. Will he want to be a vigilante? Like I said he doesn't have strong ties to the city or to the neighborhood or anything. So it's not like he has a cause to fight for now. Maybe this season is supposed to just be a one time thing and he'll guest star in other things down the road. It doesn't feel as open ended as the other shows, leading to a new one.

Yes! I really REALLY hope we see them again.

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