The Challenge for January 2011:
Lily revisited
Lily revisited
Years ago (we've been around for a while, oh yes!)we had 'Severus and Lily' as a monthly challenge.
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alicekinsno1 suggested to take a closer look at Lily's character:Maybe something that discusses the character of Lily more deeply? I'd love to see what some of your ideas are for just how Lily went from treating Snape so harshly and talking back to James, to being the stereotypical "saintly mother" at the end of her life. There's something about her personality that doesn't add up.
That is to say, how her apparently selfless decision to die for her baby makes sense in light of the way she treated Severus or even James. With possibly a side comment about how despite being so powerful and gifted she didn't really show any of that by dying pleading for her baby's life without even trying to take on Voldemort.
Please post your entries here or in a separate post. I'm looking forward to your entries.
If you have ideas for new challenges, please post them here. (This is a new list, your earlier suggestions are still in the old post).
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
Just to clarify, my labeling of mary_j_59 as a white American woman is someone who both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin. I understand people of color are not the only people subject to racism. Even in America that is not the case.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
That's why we talk to each other, to share the experience and educate each other about our misconceptions. But that's not what you want, is it? You're here to pick on one of the 'Snapefen' and run to your wanky-sites to have a laugh. Oh, I am assuming things? Tsk.
Why don't you and your friends write a post about your stand on this, where others can reply, for a change? It's so easy to hop in here and there, anonymous or not, and yell at other people's ideas.
Again, this has nothing to do with the other post, which will be removed. That one is adressed elsewhere.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
White people benefit from white privilege. That's fact. And it's not just an American concept either.
My key phrasing in my last post was "both benefits from white privilege and has never experienced racism due to her race or ethnic origin." I've read up on mary_j_59 through her LJ and my past conversations with her. As far as I'm aware, she isn't part of any ethnic and/or religious minority that intertwines with race. Whether she has or lacks class privilege or suffers from any other ism is not relevant. This was solely about racism and her comment about women of color, which she is not.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
True, but plenty of us handle isms differently. Especially when someone who doesn't share our experience decides to speak for us without listening to what they've been told before.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
So, if you reply: you are wrong: coloured women don't identify and white women are privileged... that would be ok. But waxing on your journal, on wank sites, whereever about what 'mary_j said' will only upset people but not make them want to listen to you.
The unpersonal approach is a lot less offensive and doesn't heat up discussions as the personal approach does. That way, people are usually more open to listen and learn. If that is what you want.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
Just because she didn't specify me or someone else doesn't mean she's not talking about people like me. And honestly, due to my conversations with her and others about racism and misogyny in Snape fandom, I wasn't counting on her listening. And the only reason I attempted to reach out to you about this is because I believe you when you say you want Snape fans to have safe space. But if things like this keep up, it can't be. THESE are the reasons why Snapedom gets reported on wank sites and ranted about. And the ranting is coming from Snape fans as well.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
You are stalking a journal of a woman who hasn't done anything to you except for disagreeing on an interpretation of fictional characters. She used bad judgement in a post and generalized. She should have said: some women of colour, and not women of colour. You have no clue how to keep a discussion unpersonal, apparently.
Instead, you have to go and make it personal, stalk and point, and post her name all over the place. That doesn't win you any sympathies. Nor your buddies who do likewise. These aren't the reason why Snapedom gets reported either (reported? Goodness, who are these sites, the fandom police?). They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through. Bingo.
You get the gist.
There's such a thing as agreeing to disagree, letting people do their crazy and ignoring them, or, as was the case now, yelling at me until I take action when something crosses the line (which wasn't Mary's post). That's what keeps things peaceful. Running to your journal, summoning backup from your flist and then returning here trolling for your little wank sites won't help anyone. And don't think I don't know that your wank sites don't tolerate trolling. That's why so many of you come and post anonymous to cause wank. Then you can go and innocently report the wank. So excuse me when I'm doubtful about your sincerety.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
And since when is reading someone's PUBLIC journal stalking? Especially if I've interacted with this person before? My journal and parts of my profile that I don't have hidden are available for anyone to read. Go have at it. That's what it's for.
And once again, I'm one of those women of color who identify with Lily. Her insulting comment was directed to people like me.
"They regulary get posts there, because there is a large group of people out there who thinks that jkr can do no wrong, and as soon as you contradict: bingo. A part of that group is also of the opinion that Lily is a saint, you contradict: bingo. Yet another part of that group thinks that because they have another skin colour than pink they know all there is about discrimiination and woe if you dare to not compare everything in the books to what people of colour have and had to go through."
No, they're not the fandom police and don't claim to be. Wank sites are there to mock things that come off as ridiculous and/or offensive. It has nothing to do with JKR or Lily worship. Heck, Harry Potter fandom isn't even the only thing they mock, neither is Snape fandom. If post from Snapedom are getting posted on there and people find some things offensive, maybe that tells you something. And yes, you would think people who experience racism who don't benefit from white privilege would know a thing or two about racism and how certain aspects in the books reflect that. Cause you know, we live it.
And yea, I go to my journal and rant. I figure that's what a livejournal is for, to talk about whatever it is you feel like and sharing it with who ever you want. And in nowhere in my rant did I summon anyone to back me up or to come after you or Snapedom.
I don't know what anons come here. Though I've noticed that in all my past reading of this site, the only time anons come to give you flak is when something offensive is said. Other than that, no one ever bothers to talk about Snapedom.
For this case, I figure if you werent' going to listen to an anon, you would listen to someone who had their name signed on. You're the one who said you wanted to give Snapedom a safe space. The only intention I had was letting you know why the comments made were appalling and why comments like these don't make Snapedom a safe space. Again, it's totally up to you on what you want to do. With that, I think I've said more than enough to you and this comm, so this will be the last of my rambling.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
I really would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I'm having a hard time doing it. These wank sites you praise so highly, I'm following them, never fear. I see what crap gets posted there. Sometimes these people are so desperate that they take every excuse to just be able to post something. As I said to your friend on your flist, the other day they had fanfic there. For crying out loud! If you can't see how ridiculous this is, then I'm sorry for you.
Mary is well aware that she offended you and she is more than willing to post an apology, but we'll have the other issue run its course first.
Certainly you see that there is a difference. I'm sorry that you and other women of colour were offended by her words, but surely that can be forgiven, since she understands it and tries to do better. We all make assumptions from time to time as I tried to tell you earlier. I would not have interfered at all if it had been only for Mary's post.
That other issue, however, can't be tolerated, nor forgiven easily and I am glad you were insistent enough to bring it to my attention.
There is a misunderstanding here. Snapedom is not a safe space per se. It is a safe space for Snape fans to say what they want if they are ready to fend for themselves. This is not the case on many other sites where you used to be shouted down if you said as much as 'Snape isn't all bad.' I've been there, I know how it goes. Not on all boards, but on some, and on many of the big ones. But not here.
I only step in very rarely, I simply don't have the time for strict moderation, and I seldom participate in discussions. But if people are up to it, they are welcome to go on whichever tangent they like, within reason, and as long as they keep it to fictional characters. Yes, there is a difference.
So, if you take things personal, tell people that you feel offended but don't generalize and act as if you own canon, the definition of racism, the world and everything, The Truth(TM). Learn to differntiate between someone who is callous and someone who is thoughtless. The first will yell, the second will apologize. Look at who can be argued with and who always goes off on a tangent. And I tell you something, even if you roll your eyes and think: they again, here we go... sometimes, among the wilde ideas, there is actually something interesting you might not have thought about earlier. And that's what counts. Not all people on fandom_wank are self-righteous pricks. Not all people on snapedom are deluded fangirls.
So, if I can let the wank sites wank all they want and don't go to troll there, why do they have to come and troll here? They can wank on their sites all they want, but I don't tolerate trolls and anyone who's associated with trolls here. And what do you know, we're on fandom_wank again. How surprised I am!
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
As to my second question here - all I was saying is that Lily's situation in the Wizarding World is not analogous to that of a young woman of color in, say, modern-day America. On a day-to-day basis, I think the American woman of color would have it much tougher. I phrased it clumsily and totally see why that was offensive. But still, I do think my original point stands.
In Rowling's books, the People of Color, or Muslims or Jews during the Inquisition (a better analogy, IMHO) are the *Muggles*. EVERYONE in the Wizarding World is racist toward them to a greater or lesser degree. Lily is a Witch. She's not a Muggle. She's not a member of that despised majority. Yes, there is a minority that is trying to oppress her group. At the time of her conversations with Sev, it is not widely known, even to that group's members, that the leader actually does want to kill Muggleborns. And there is no suggestion that the Wizarding World generally is prejudiced against Muggleborns. The Death Eaters are, certainly. But we have no idea how general their attitude is. From what we see, I'd guess, not very. Because nobody, except for Draco Malfoy and a couple of other Slytherins, makes any fuss at all about Hermione being Muggleborn. There is no suggestion at all that she will encounter prejudice or that her birth will hold her back. And, if there had been widespread anti-Muggleborn prejudice just one generation before, Hermione would not have had the level playing field we see. Again, I'm talking about the Wizarding World generally, not Voldemort and his most nutty Death Eaters.
No need to respond to this if you don't want to. Again, I'm sorry I offended you.
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
What do you mean by this? Do you want a stand made here at Snapedom? Is anyone here really open to that? You have drawn the line at the latest instance of a blatant racist statement (and I'm glad to see that), but the aversive racist (and also the aversive misogynistic) statements have been defended to the death, here. And the problem is that the people making these statements and defending them, don't see them as being bigoted statements (unless they do, in which case it is conscious bigotry going on as opposed to unconscious). And no argument or debate has convinced the people making these statements that these statements are problematic to say the least, no matter how civilly made or well thought out the argument/debate was.
I believe that no one here intends to say bigoted things, but bigoted things get said here nonetheless. And you can't change what you don't acknowledge. And no one here seems to want to acknowledge the underlying real life problem, nor do they seem willing to to do so. I don't see the point in trying to change anyone's mind here. It seems like a lost cause, to me.
Just in case it isn't a lost cause, I offer up this article: Aversive Racism - SUBTLE BIAS, COMBATING
Re: An addition and plea for moderation
If you seriously want to discuss this, then repost this on the mod thread: http://asylums.insanejournal.com/snaped