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Werewolves. I believe that Severus' antipathy to werewolves was due to something he believed to be Remus’ betrayal. Remus had never tormented him. That would have meant a great deal Severus, as a lonely teenager. There are two times we read about Severus following someone and spying on them for his own ends. One is Lily, in the playground, (which naturally implies more such incidents.) The other is his spying on the Marauders.
The books speak of him hiding in the bushes, watching Lily with hunger. He was not a predator, but despite everything, despite planning and cunning, he was something much more innocent. He wanted a friend.
I believe it was in the same spirit that he watched the marauders. It is true, he was amongst a gang of Slytherins, who nearly all turned out to be Death-Eaters, but they were Slytherin. They were the powerful rich old families, pure-blood, wanting for nothing. The demands put on the neglected boy we see on the train must have been enormous, and they would have had to be hidden, must be demonstrated immediately even as they were developing.
How lonely he must have been, would have been, even had Sirius, James and probably others, not tormented him while their followers jeered.
He would have noticed Remus with them, shabby and poor as himself, another boy who would have been an outcast. He would have seen the apology in Remus' eyes, the awkwardness, the inability to prevent his friends, the disinclination to participate. Intrigued, he would have watched, noticed the illnesses, the absences, perhaps scratches and minor wounds. In his mind he would have conjured sympathy in Remus - not pity, but possibility of understanding, fellow-feeling, even... even friendship.
Remus regretted not preventing his friends from tormenting Severus and as good as called himself an idiot. But this was Remus' thought. Even Sirius and Dumbledore did not share it. Severus was bullied by the leaders in the school, and by extension an entire crowd. He would have been keenly aware that Remus had been reading during his worst memory, even more aware he was frowning. He would also have assumed with the same keenness of feeling that Remus would wished he was not bullied.
The whole school, and the world, from his earliest childhood, had been against him, save his shining Slytherins. A simple refusal to participate would grow and expand into an almost convincing illusion of understanding and warmth. Severus was not lost yet. There was no brand on his arm. He was free to make his own choices. I believe something in him was still tender and wistful enough to believe he could have that friend. I believe he was innocent enough to fool himself into believing Remus would have sat with him - talked, shared books, perhaps, ideas, sympathies - if only Remus had been free to do what he really wanted.
He would have watched and waited, thinking kindly too of a boy with secrets, poverty, pain. He would have dreamt as he had of himself and Lily, prepared himself again for an approach, ineptly. The day actually came, though the message was from Sirius.
Then came the Shrieking Shack fiasco. Sirius tried to kill him, and Remus was a werewolf, vicious, terrifying. , and they all stood against him, favoured. Even Remus. Dumbledore was perhaps the only one who could have redeemed him from the Death Eaters. He waved him away, treated him as nothing, protected his young lions. It was the end of many things for Severus, and I believe he channelled all his hurt into hate and rage and dismissal. I believe he swept Remus, and werewolves by extension into this, calling him a weapon, a danger even into adulthood, trying to convince himself.
Nevertheless, I believe the earlier truth wound itself into Severus' obsession. He was somewhat obsessed. Even before Remus came to teach, his third question to Harry, in his first ever class, was about Aconite, Monkshood, Wolfsbane. I believe those sad tendrils of hope still lived, though as melancholy, as mourning, as sorrow, as part of himself he had also lost. In my world, it is this spirit, almost of a past, ghostly Severus that infuses the Wolfsbane potion which he brews for Remus.
The books speak of him hiding in the bushes, watching Lily with hunger. He was not a predator, but despite everything, despite planning and cunning, he was something much more innocent. He wanted a friend.
I believe it was in the same spirit that he watched the marauders. It is true, he was amongst a gang of Slytherins, who nearly all turned out to be Death-Eaters, but they were Slytherin. They were the powerful rich old families, pure-blood, wanting for nothing. The demands put on the neglected boy we see on the train must have been enormous, and they would have had to be hidden, must be demonstrated immediately even as they were developing.
How lonely he must have been, would have been, even had Sirius, James and probably others, not tormented him while their followers jeered.
He would have noticed Remus with them, shabby and poor as himself, another boy who would have been an outcast. He would have seen the apology in Remus' eyes, the awkwardness, the inability to prevent his friends, the disinclination to participate. Intrigued, he would have watched, noticed the illnesses, the absences, perhaps scratches and minor wounds. In his mind he would have conjured sympathy in Remus - not pity, but possibility of understanding, fellow-feeling, even... even friendship.
Remus regretted not preventing his friends from tormenting Severus and as good as called himself an idiot. But this was Remus' thought. Even Sirius and Dumbledore did not share it. Severus was bullied by the leaders in the school, and by extension an entire crowd. He would have been keenly aware that Remus had been reading during his worst memory, even more aware he was frowning. He would also have assumed with the same keenness of feeling that Remus would wished he was not bullied.
The whole school, and the world, from his earliest childhood, had been against him, save his shining Slytherins. A simple refusal to participate would grow and expand into an almost convincing illusion of understanding and warmth. Severus was not lost yet. There was no brand on his arm. He was free to make his own choices. I believe something in him was still tender and wistful enough to believe he could have that friend. I believe he was innocent enough to fool himself into believing Remus would have sat with him - talked, shared books, perhaps, ideas, sympathies - if only Remus had been free to do what he really wanted.
He would have watched and waited, thinking kindly too of a boy with secrets, poverty, pain. He would have dreamt as he had of himself and Lily, prepared himself again for an approach, ineptly. The day actually came, though the message was from Sirius.
Then came the Shrieking Shack fiasco. Sirius tried to kill him, and Remus was a werewolf, vicious, terrifying. , and they all stood against him, favoured. Even Remus. Dumbledore was perhaps the only one who could have redeemed him from the Death Eaters. He waved him away, treated him as nothing, protected his young lions. It was the end of many things for Severus, and I believe he channelled all his hurt into hate and rage and dismissal. I believe he swept Remus, and werewolves by extension into this, calling him a weapon, a danger even into adulthood, trying to convince himself.
Nevertheless, I believe the earlier truth wound itself into Severus' obsession. He was somewhat obsessed. Even before Remus came to teach, his third question to Harry, in his first ever class, was about Aconite, Monkshood, Wolfsbane. I believe those sad tendrils of hope still lived, though as melancholy, as mourning, as sorrow, as part of himself he had also lost. In my world, it is this spirit, almost of a past, ghostly Severus that infuses the Wolfsbane potion which he brews for Remus.
crushed
So, while Remus is 'doing nothing', reading and frowning, Snape had already thought by then that Remus had been 'in on' the 'prank'. Remus' frown could also be merely worry that if pushed too far, Snape might 'out' him.
Personally, I tend to see this incident (SWM) as almost the final blow. They have already tried to kill him and now James flat out admits that it's just because he exists. They obviously feel 'safe' that no matter what they do to Snape, he will not let out Remus' secret (implying SOME kind of Vow or big enough threat that they believe Snape wouldn't dare).
Add in that he loses Lily when he calls her a mudblood, but also uses a 'dark spell' (by his own words in HBP when Harry uses it) in PUBLIC and that this all leads up to a summer at home with Lily no longer speaking to him? I tend to see SWM as the last stop before his sliding down the slippery to DEdom became a full-out tumble.
And would Remus necessarily have been poor back then? Remus as an adult cannot find gainful employment hence the shabby clothes. Yet his being a werewolf would not have prevented his parents from working (or at least one of them, one probably did need to take off to take care of him on the day after) so he may not have been poor. For instance, I don't remember any mention of Remus' shabby clothes in SWM.
I can still see Snape thinking Remus might make a friend earlier in their school years, but 5th year Remus is also the same as his voice on the Marauders Map - peeved that Snape is following him around and insulting Snape's nose. He was not probably totally innocent and silent during all prankings -- Hwyla
In POA he says "My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure." Perhaps the Lupins spent their savings seeking cures, maybe on the wizarding equivalent of snake oil salesmen.
This is a good observation. It makes sense of what, at first, many people were saying didn't make sense: how SWM could follow the Shrieking Shack incident. If we assume that James rescued Severus out of a change of heart about persecuting Severus, then yeah, it wouldn't make sense for SWM to follow only a week, or a few weeks, later. And it wouldn't make sense that James continued to harass Severus during 6th and 7th year, behind Lily's back.
However: If James rescued Severus because he realized that he, James, could get in trouble if Severus were killed, and in fact he had no remorse whatsoever about his treatment of Severus--be a man, James! try for a little remorse!--then his attitude in SWM makes perfect sense. He and his friends got away with damned near murdering Severus, and the only consequences meted out seem to have been towards Severus, telling him to keep silent about Remus' furry little secret. So we see James cocky, even gloating, in continuing to bully Severus, because he knows now that he can get away with it, and that Severus can never tell just how far the Marauders had carried their little schoolboy grudge against Severus.
Now Lupin of HBP was beginning to grow up more - he at least admitted to Harry that he didn't 'dislike' Snape which I think had to do with walking a mile in Snape's black boots, what with Remus' own plunge into spying. I can see an eventual friendship forming if it had not been for the Astronomy Tower AK. After all, Snape in DH actually saves Remus' life (albeit at the cost of a twin's ear), so I doubt Snape HATES Remus at that point.
But for Snupin, I tend to read ones of what might have happened if they had survived the war (and Tonks didn't). I find them very AU but then the fact that they are still alive in them is AU, so what the heck? -- Hwyla
We don't know the Slytherins of his generation other than Lucius, the Blacks and the Lestranges were rich - I would guess most weren't, simply because there can be only that many at the top in any society (and even among them some were in other houses - see James). Also, Lucius' welcoming attitude at the Sorting would have signaled to his followers in the House (and Lucius was likely a more influential leader in his House than Percy in Gryffindor) that all Slytherins are part of the same in-group (and Lucius at 17 must have known there were no Snapes in Nature's Nobility). This may have changed a bit later after Lucius left Hogwarts, but perhaps it did not - we know that as late as 5th year Severus was hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. That they did not defend him during SWM could be either because they were in a different year and weren't around (I see Severus as one who would seek older friends, so probably 6th years), or as someone (Hwyla?) suggested elsewhere - because Severus was distancing himself from them after his argument with Lily following the Shrieking Shack incident.
As for how Remus treated Severus - by the time of SWM Severus clearly recognized Remus' attitude as passive support of James and Sirius. But we have a reason to think Remus' support of the Marauders went beyond that - his text is the first to insult Severus from the Map.
I agree with Hwyla that in POA Severus was totally distrustful of Remus (completely justifiably though not exactly for the correct reason, as it turned out) and Remus was disrespectful of Severus. At the beginning of HBP Severus warns Tonks (a former student of his, BTW) that Remus is a weak person whom she shouldn't trust with her heart (another good observation). Remus only develops some begrudged respect for Severus after his own experience as spy/delegate among the werewolves (and after he finds himself alone again following Sirius' death). Severus takes a huge risk when he tries to defend Remus in the 7-P battle. My guess is he would have done so for (almost?) any Order member, but at least it means Severus recognizes Remus' worth as such.
If it weren't for the Astronomy Tower, I think Remus would have sought Severus out as a substitute for the Marauders. Severus may have reciprocated, but only after a while, or after he saw Remus proving himself to be not as weak as Severus believed him to be. I can believe Snupin scenarios in post-war fics if they have a slow enough start or in AUs where Remus takes a clear stance against the other Marauders, or where Severus and Remus are in the same House or there aren't Houses.
I do think that Lupin could have been friends with Snape under different circumstances. He's quieter, more studious and serious compared to the other Marauders; I could see them making good study partners. And as you said, both outcasts. Snape didn't know that Lupin was a werewolf, at least at first, but I think that he was smart enough to sense that Lupin was hiding a pretty big secret, somethng that he was ashamed of. And if Hermione could figure it out, maybe the young Snape did, too?
I think he still did feel something for Lupin as an adult, since he risks blowing his cover trying to save Lupin during the broomstick chase from the Dursleys', as Hwyla pointed out above. It has to be something more than just protecting a colleague, since he stood by and allowed Charity Burbage to be killed. What, one might wonder, makes Lupin so special?
Which is something I find terribly interesting. He KNEW Remus was a werewolf and he probably was certain Remus would be at the other end of the tunnel (we don't have actual canon that says exactly what Sirius implied would BE down the tunnel, but the implication has been that Snape bought into the 'prank' because he wanted to catch them doing something bad enought to call for expullsion.
The other implication has been that what he would find down that tunnel would get ALL of the Marauders in trouble, not just Remus - so it is my guess that he was aware the Marauders were sneaking out on Full moon nights, presumably spending them in the shack with Remus behind very sturdy bars.
After all, proving Remus a werewolf is unlikely to be enough to get him expelled - let's face it, it's unlikely that the Marauders set up the whole Shrieking Shack and tunnel protection. And I really doubt that it was REMUS that Sev wanted gone so badly. What Snape was looking for was something that would get rid of JAMES and SIRIUS. And that means catching them doing something they should not be doing - like spending the Full Moon with Mooney.
Since Snape never did find out that the Marauders were animagi (until at least the end of PoA), I think that once Snape found out that Remus was roaming the Shack 'freely', he believed that the boys were using some kind of 'dark arts' to keep Remus under control (this is pre-wolfsbane potion).
I rally don't know exactly what to think Snape thought of Werewolves, but I feel at least sure that he did not blindly fear them. There's no indication during SWM that Snape is actually afraid of Remus. So, at the very least Sev was aware that Werewolves were only dangerous when transformed by the Full Moon.
At least until he later met Fenrir. -- Hwyla
I think the difference between Charity and Remus' cases weren't the people but the situation. With Charity he was sitting on Voldemort's right side, at a table surrounded by 40some DEs. There was no way he could pull it off. During the 7-P battle there were 7 separate mini-battles taking place at once, so there were probably no more than 3-4 other DEs in the vicinity and everyone was moving so had he hit the DE as intended he could claim it was accidental.
fanon
When Sirius tried to explain their treatment of Snape to Harry, he said, "We were all idiots! Well - not Moony so much." He didn't say "not Moony" (ie *at all*), just not *so much*. I call that a clear admission that Lupin *did* join in with the harassment, albeit with less intensity. It's worth noting that Snape's own testimony was that James "would never attack me unless it was four on one." (NB He said "four ON one", which I believe indicates agression, rather than "four TO one", which would indicate mere outnumbering.) And why would he suppose, as he claimed in PoA, that Lupin was in on the trick with the others, if Lupin had never participated in their other attacks?
We learnt in DH that Snape suspected Lupin's lycanthropy *before* entering the tunnel - although no doubt he wasn't expecting to end up in a cul-de-sac with an unrestrained werewolf. He probably supposed the tunnel led to Hogsmeade and that Lupin was locked in a cage before moonrise. (Wouldn't anyone?)
Although the frequency and severity of their bullying provided an adequate motive for wanting the Marauders expelled, I'm not convinced Snape expected to catch them out in expellable behaviour. Their own guilty knowledge would incline them to iattribute this motive to him, but given his obvious fear that Lily was warming to James, I think it more likely he was looking for evidence to convince her that James's "gang" (McGonagall's word) was dangerous and she should stay away from them. He had tried to tell her, but she had resolutely refused to believe his "theory" ... which he had apparently told no one else. (Unless we are to suppose that Dumbledore Obliviated them; at any rate, the Slytherin parents of Harry's generation don't seem to have warned their kids of the danger.)
duj
Re: fanon
Not in his school days, but not even later, when he was a Death Eater. Voldemort could have used the information to discredit Dumbledore and have him removed from Hogwarts, but it seems Voldemort never noticed such information could have been present. What does this tell us of the motivations of Death Eater Severus Snape?
Re: fanon
And Remus' insult on the Map would also play out in PoA. We need to remember that while Snape might not have known EXACTLY what the Map did, it was apparently familiar enough that he knew who made it. If he didn't recognize it from his youth, then minimally, he recognized the nicknames.
When he says he believes the Map came directly from the 'manufacturers' with the purpose of 'luring' Harry outside of Hogwarts, he is outright offering Remus a chance to show he is not supporting Sirius Black. After all, they are the last of the 'manufacturers'. Black shouldn't have the Map in his possession - he's come from Azbakastan - leaving Remus as the most likely culprit. So Snape has a very good reason to believe Remus was helping Black.
Of course, Remus WAS helping Black - just not 'actively'.
As for Remus not being 'in on' the attack in SWM - he DOES have the most to lose IF Snape breaks and blurts out his secret.
It is interesting that IF Snape only went down the tunnel to get proof for Lily and never had any intention of telling his fellow Slytherins (or getting the Marauders expelled), then his keeping his promise not to tell (even after Hogwarts) would tend to indicate that he doesn't really have anything against Werewolves - as long as they take the safety precautions needed.
However, we cannot be TOO sure that Snape NEVER hinted at something. First year Draco believed there were werewolves in the Forbidden Forest and Remus wasn't roaming around there loose until several years after his parents had finished. While Snape may not have outed Remus, he MAY have shared his suspicions that a werewolf might be loose in the Forest after the Werewolf Incident -- Hwyla
Re: fanon
However, we cannot be TOO sure that Snape NEVER hinted at something. First year Draco believed there were werewolves in the Forbidden Forest and Remus wasn't roaming around there loose until several years after his parents had finished. While Snape may not have outed Remus, he MAY have shared his suspicions that a werewolf might be loose in the Forest after the Werewolf Incident
?? Severus did not know the Marauders were letting Remus out. After Remus left Hogwarts he was no more likely to have been roaming around there on full moons than any other werewolf. If anything, the rumors about a werewolf around Hogwarts would have originated in tales of Fenrir who was known to prey on children and who was known to the Malfoys (though I wouldn't take seriously Draco's description of him to Borgin as a family friend. OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if when Lucius was threatening to curse the families of board members in COS he was threatening them with Fenrir and Draco copied the idea in HBP - credit to this should go either to Jodel or swythyv). As an aside, when diaryTom tried to discredit Hagrid to Harry he says Hagrid was raising werewolf cubs. Was 16 year old Tom already thinking of associating with werewolves or was this in response to the same student rumor about werewolves in the Forbidden Forest that diaryTom learned from Ginny?
Re: fanon
I can remember thinking that, but I no longer believe it. Let's face it, lycanthropy isn't something you *can* keep secret for long from your employer, landlord and/or neighbours. Whatever Lupin did after Hogwarts, he wouldn't be able to keep a job past the second or third full moon. (The first absences might be ignored as coincidence.) And the more employers he went through, the less "secret" his secret would be. Snape could have shouted it to the world and it wouldn't have significantly worsened Lupin's post-Hogwarts life. The only thing he had to fear was having his Hogwarts career cut short.
But he knew Snape would be muzzled until they both finished school; his lycanthropy was known to Dumbledore and Pomfrey (and probably all the staff, although that is less clear) and it didn't suit them to have his condition exposed. Whereas the other three Marauders were actually engaging in criminal activity by their unregistered transforming, and Rita's susceptibility to Hermione's blackmail suggests that the penalties for that are severe. Plus they were *deliberately* releasing a werewolf at full moon. It seems plausible to me that the penalty for that would be greater than the penalty for merely *being* that werewolf, unless his willing complicity could be proven in court. *He* might be removed from the school on grounds of safety - if Dumbledore decided not to protect him - but *they* could be expelled, turned in to the Aurors, and have their wands snapped.
I now believe that the whole point of the so-called prank was to get Snape off their tails so they could have their full moon outings without being caught (because heaven knows, no one *but* Snape was bothering to keep an eye on them!) Lupin was the one who benefited most from those outings. The other three could roam any night of the month, but Lupin could only accompany them on full moons. (He could hide under the Cloak other nights, but not keep up with their speed.) So discrediting Snape was greatly in Lupin's interest.
It's important to remember (what many people forget) that Lupin was as much a Marauder, ie a rule-breaker and risk-taker, as his friends. I don't think he would have let the risk deter him from something he very much wanted to do. After all, he regularly courted discovery by roaming where people were; why would he fear Snape more than his chance-met victims, whose mouths *couldn't* be stopped by the threat of expulsion?
duj
Part 1
I also can see Sev and Lupin becoming friends of some sort under different circumstances - say they were both in Ravenclaw, for instance. They're both intelligent, with a bent towards analyzing things logically; they do seem to have a shared interest in learning about magic, and value doing well academically. Etc. A fic like that would be very interesting to read.
However, I tend to agree more with those who argue that once Lupin was taken up by the Marauders, any sense of fellow-feeling with or desire to connect with Lupin on Sev's part would have declined. 'My' Severus (how I read his character, that is) can be rather dualistic in his thinking at times, and I think that once Lupin connected himself with James and Sirius and started taking part in some of their activities, Sev would have mentally checked him off as being in the "enemy" category, though perhaps not the "mortal enemy who shall die a slow painful death" category. It seems that Lupin was involved to some degree, if I read the signs in canon coherently. Though I do agree that the Shack incident would have sparked a feeling of betrayal in Severus, in that (believing Lupin 'in' on it all) the member of the group who had been the least active and vicious of his tormentors apparently had as little regard for his life as the other Marauders.
Part 2
My take is somewhere between the two: I think in that scene he's reacting at least partly out of that wariness RE Harry. But I think that, deep down, he does harbor a certain degree of horror and fear of werewolves, though he doesn't let it take him over. I think that this is partly due to the sheer traumatic impact of that moment in the Shack when he was confronted - not with "Lupin" in any recognizable sense, but with a snarling, vicious monster - the kind of thing that, even if you manage fine most of the time, can occasionally pop up in a nightmare from which you wake screaming.
And partly, I think, (especially later on) it's due to a sense he has that he himself is, in a way, a kind of werewolf - appearing to be a normal human being and capable of civilized behavior most of the time (when he chooses), but at times taken over completely by something more primal and vicious that leads him to hurt others and do things he later regrets immensely (his hatred and anger). There's an essay floating around (I'll have to find it) that he's a "spiritual werewolf," and I think this is heading in the right direction.
Part 3
For now, I guess I think his first, but short-lived, reaction would be denial: an unwillingness to face this fate at all. After a short time (at most one month), though, he'd grimly accept that this is reality, and move over into a feeling of rage - at the werewolf who turned him, of course, but also at the universe for giving him one more giant piece of s**t like this to deal with, casting him still further outside of 'normal' society and possibly messing up his spying work for the order. Eventually he might come to terms with it, but I think he'd need someone to support him - someone who, crucially, really understood his pain - another werewolf (Snupin shippers: go wild!) Given this support, I could see him turning his anger into something constructive, pouring his energy into finding a cure or improving the Wolfsbane. And I think he would also eventually be able to relate to Lupin better, to admit that this is something he could not have completely understood before, but should have attempted to respect (rather than condemning Lupin for something he couldn't help).
Just my thoughts. ;) Thanks, Janus and all above, for your thoughtful responses to the topic I suggested (and am only now getting 'round to tackling myself).
Cheers,
00sevvie
Re: Part 2