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runespoor7 (runespoor7) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-02 20:21:00

Entry tags:

char: batgirl/cassandra cain, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: damion scott, creator: kelley puckett, publisher: dc comics, title: batgirl

When Cass was like Jason
4 scans from Batgirl #07.
writer: Kelley Puckett, penciller: Damion Scott

Being to compared to Jason Todd, in the Batman mythos, is a Bad Thing. According to the orthodox editorial meta, being like Jason means being angry, badly trained, and reckless. Jason Todd is widely depicted as the Bad Robin - first he died, and now he's back, meta wants to make him "irredeemable".

It's generally admitted that Steph was like Jason. (Even Robins represent.)

This takes place when Cass has lost her ability to read body language and thus 'foresee' her opponents' moves. (She later regains it.) She's not used to it, so she takes a beating, and Batman pulls her out of the streets for a while and into a rigorous training regimen.

It doesn't go very well.

Cass is frustrated. She's never before been unable to do something, so it's one of the first times we see her being negative. But she's willing to push herself, even if she finds Batman's training process confusing and inefficient.
And she keeps getting thrashed.

Cass gets truly angry - snarling and scowling and completely disregarding that she has blood running down her face. Demanding to try again. And Batman freezes.

Gasp shock and surprise. Cass makes a heroic declaration and is awesome; she makes a case for wanting to protect people - in a way that underlines her death-wish - and that prompts Batman to tell her about Jason. It's not just the anger. It's not disobeying orders, which is, while we're at it, one of Robin's traditional tasks - someone needs to call Batman out when he's on the verge of killing the bad guy. Note, in fact, how Batman does not fall back on those excuses to warn Cass off.

He just tells her what happened to him, and he does it after Cass implied that she would have no issue with sacrificing her life. Jason died after he undid his mother's bonds - the woman who had sold him out to the Joker.

Being like Jason means wanting to protect people so much that you forego protecting yourself.

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	taggerung301 2009-05-02 02:07 pm UTC (link)
	wow, those are some powerful pages (Reply to this)

	cat_13145 2009-05-02 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	Would the DC writers like to remember that? Seriously that last line sums up Jason for me. Which is why I dislike the current run. Good post, thank you (Reply to this)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-02 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	Wow! Excellent! Thank you for posting this! (Reply to this)

	killermoth1 2009-05-02 05:26 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen this before and I really like it. This was during that time when DC thought Batman being a dick would attract readers wasn't it? If so, it made me very happy with that little pause and ending. (Reply to this) (Thread)

runespoor7
2009-05-02 06:34 pm UTC (link)

Eh, not sure. Then again, I'm the last person who could give you an answer on Batdickery - either I'm blind to it either I justify it either I... am enjoying the resulting drama too much.

Batman wasn't always a dick to Cass during that time period, at any rate. There's a couple of earlier issues dealing with Cass having killed a man when she was a little girl, which feature Batman simply refusing to believe she could have done it. And then later on again, when Oracle thinks it's possible she did, and Bruce deniiiiiies.

The relationship between Batman and Cass is full of oddly lovely/crazy moments; she believes in the Bat as much as he does, and that's not something he ever forgets or takes likely.

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	jcbaggee 2009-05-02 08:16 pm UTC (link)
	A further good example of this would be the issue where Batman and Cass were drugged (I can't remember the name of it) and fought each other not out of hate, but because it was the only way they could properly communicate their feelings to each other. Powerful stuff. I miss this Batgirl. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-05-02 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, it was great. (The drug was called Soul.) But it happened way later, in Batgirl 50, so I wanted to give examples from a closer time period. So do I. ;_; (Reply to this) (Parent)

kagome654
2009-05-02 06:00 pm UTC (link)

One of my favourite Jason Todd moments was a post death retrospective in which he, when walking down the street, sees a runaway stroller about to be hit by a car and instinctively saves the baby. When the mother thanks him he just smiles, plays it as no big deal, and walks away. It was a nice change of pace from the way he was often written after his death, since the writers often seemed to be trying to imply that he deserved to die (or at least brought it on himself) by being a shitty person and a subpar Robin.

He was a hero. A little too passionate and lacking in the necessary emotional detachment, but a hero nonetheless.

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	runespoor7 2009-05-02 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	Do you know/have the issue? I would so love to read it. A big honkin' MOTTO to everything else you said. YES HE WAS. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-05-02 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	It took me a while, but I managed to find it here. I couldn't remember which book it was in. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-05-02 08:35 pm UTC (link)
	D'AWWWWW. JASON. Thanks a lot for the link. (I love the way his hair curls in this. It looks natural! And his little smirks! D'awwww!) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-05-02 09:09 pm UTC (link)
	Heh, I got a few details of the story wrong when I was describing it. Oh well, its been a while. I just think it's a nice little character bit. Yeah, I usually picture Jason's hair with a slight natural curl. (Reply to this) (Parent)

perletwo
2009-05-02 07:41 pm UTC (link)

Being like Jason means wanting to protect people so much that you forego protecting yourself.

A big MOTTO to this statement. It's what impressed me so much in the LEGENDS mini that I posted these pages trying to illustrate the point.

In fact, the only time I've seen him walk away from a fight he might reasonably consider his own, good side or bad side, was at the end of Countdown. (Though I admit my knowledge of Jason appearances is not encyclopedic.)

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runespoor7
2009-05-03 07:05 am UTC (link)

Those scans are awesome. Jason certainly has a history of dragging himself, injuries and all, to save the day. He does the same in The Cult.

He did something similar earlier, actually, in The Search For Ray Palmer when the Challengers were in the world with vampire!Batman. But it's true that they were out of time and had to change worlds. As for Jay saying screw-you-guys by the end of Countdown, I always thought that it was a reaction to seeing Earth-51 Batman get killed after Jason had been the one insisting that they go out and fight - to help his friends.

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sistermagpie
2009-05-02 08:38 pm UTC (link)

I don't even know if it could be boiled down to something that simple. I mean, it does seem like part of Jason's legacy since his death are hints of recklessness. Not that he deserved to die (at least in my eyes) but that there were problems Batman could or would not address.

Because if it was just about Jason having this sort of deathwish, I don't think Bruce would be as responsible as I think he is. Jason was a kid. I don't think he was old enough to really make the kind of choice Cass is describing here. It seems like it was more like yes, Jason was angry. His anger was fueled by the feeling there was injustice in the world and innocent people were being hurt. In his last minutes he did just try to save someone else rather than himself. But I think it could believably also make him angry and reckless--not because he didn't care about himself but because his own death wasn't a real fear for him.

I hate hate hate the idea that this means Jason deserved to die or brought on his own death. But I've always loved the aspect of Bruce feeling rightly responsible. And I now just totally buy Bruce being a completely stubborn mule when he faces situations that remind him of that.

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runespoor7
2009-05-03 06:57 am UTC (link)

I think Jason was occasionally reckless, but whether he was truly self-destructive or not, it doesn't make Bruce any less responsible to me.

Of course, by the stage Jason was more angry than happy as Robin, it was already too late for Bruce to do much of anything about it. None of the Robins have reacted well to being benched; Dick ran away from Wayne Manor more than once in just that circumstance, and Steph... He must have feared that taking Robin from Jason would only alienate him further and would only fuel his rage further - and this time it would include Bruce as well. Which seems likely to me, and not advisable at all.

So they were... kinda stuck. And very very very doomed, but that's one of the reasons why I luv them.

I feel I shoudl clarify: none of the above is intended to relieve Bruce of the guilt of Jason's death, but I think that Bruce is more guilty of the situation that made Jason's death 'inevitable' than of his death itself. Being Robin didn't help Jason's psyche at all. And Bruce is entirely responsible for that.

And I now just totally buy Bruce being a completely stubborn mule when he faces situations that remind him of that.
I believe in the Scary Bat Ship of Silent Self-Flagellation and Vehement Stubbornness. I do, I do.

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ladymirth
2009-05-03 02:20 am UTC (link)

Being like Jason means wanting to protect people so much that you forego protecting yourself.

How does this not apply to every Robin, and even Batman? Hell, he actively hammered that trait into his Robins, through example as well as in training("you risk your own life before you put a civilian in danger!").

Still, I am happy about this description. I hate it when they repeatedly try to paint Jason as being reckless and disobedient and badly trained, as though repeating it enough times would make it true. Jason was an angry kid, yes, but his childhood was even more fucked up than Bruce's was. Maybe he didn't entirely subscribe to Bruce's theory that you should allow killers and sickos to run around hurting innocent people without getting put down because the moral high ground is more important. But I fail to see how that indicated the beginnings of a sociopath.

I'm not even going to go into the subject of Stephanie. She was a bright, mature girl who had the flaw of not being born at the mental age of 35, like Tim. She was mature enough to consider hanging up the cape of her own volition several times...and she was always dragged back in the game before she could make that choice. Reckless - oh, yeah she disobeyed Batman's orders order to save his life. You know, like Tim did in order to earn the suit. Disobedient - she wouldn't put up with Bruce's BatGod crap and decided to make her own choices *gasp* independently!

As for badly trained - well, whose fault was that again?

Why am I supposed to give a shit about Bruce Wayne again?

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runespoor7
2009-05-03 06:41 am UTC (link)

I didn't mean to imply that it's not a trait shared by every member of the Batfamily - or, you know, by all the heroes.

She was mature enough to consider hanging up the cape of her own volition several times...and she was always dragged back in the game before she could make that choice. Reckless - oh, yeah she disobeyed Batman's orders order to save his life. You know, like Tim did in order to earn the suit. Disobedient - she wouldn't put up with Bruce's BatGod crap and decided to make her own choices *gasp* independently!

As for badly trained - well, whose fault was that again?

That's an argument Bruce can't win. Either he refuses to take on the kid and orders him/her home, and that means he's an authoritative, self-entitled asshole, either he does accept them and start training them, and that means he's endangering children.

Maybe he didn't entirely subscribe to Bruce's theory that you should allow killers and sickos to run around hurting innocent people without getting put down because the moral high ground is more important.

Hyperbole isn't helping your point here. Bruce has never advocated that 'killers and sickos' should run around. And given that 'the moral high ground' is what keeps him from effectively playing God - him and the other heroes - I find it hard to blame him.

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ladymirth
2009-05-03 10:09 am UTC (link)

Bruce has never advocated that 'killers and sickos' should run around. And given that 'the moral high ground' is what keeps him from effectively playing God - him and the other heroes - I find it hard to blame him.

I'm sorry for not making myself clearer. I don't blame Batman for never using lethal force or killing. What I do object to, is him protecting them. Two-face and Joker have both killed/ come within ace of killing Robins that he considers his "sons". And yet, how many times has he saved the Joker from getting his just desserts? There have been times when even Gordon has begged and pleaded with him to just let the Joker die from the wounds circumstances he'd bought upon himself. And yet, he's saved their lives time and time again, for no other reason than his own ideal of "justice". Maybe it's a personal preference, but in protecting them he's also responsible for the lives that these criminals have goe on to end and destroy.

Worse, he's passed it down to his students. Tim nearly gave up being Robin because he thought he'd accidentally killed Johnny Warren (regardless of the fact that it was while trying to stop him killing Stephanie). And in two barf-worthy story arcs, Nightwing alienates himself from everyone and nearly kills himself with guilt - once, for nearly killing the Joker in revenge for Robin's presumed death and the other for letting Blockbuster take a bullet after he'd pretty much killed everyone in Bludhaven remotely close to Dick. Feeling regretful I can understand; trying to destroy themselves from guilt...just, no.

That's an argument Bruce can't win. Either he refuses to take on the kid and orders him/her home, and that means he's an authoritative, self-entitled asshole, either he does accept them and start training them, and that means he's endangering children.

Likewise, I never faulted him for training the Robins. No matter how much they pestered him, it was clear that he would never have taken them on unless he saw the required aptitude for the mantle and they proved themselves to him after intensive training.

However, after having rebuffed her numerous times and stopping her training as Spoiler altogether, he took on Stephanie as Robin purely to lure Tim back. And while he put Tim through a year of training and sent him abroad before he so much as let him go out as Robin on his own, Stephanie barely had more than a few weeks. He didn't even tell her, his so-called Robin, his true name! Whether consciously or not, he set her up to fail from the start, giving her just enough training to make her dangerously overconfdent in the process.

As far as I'm concerned, Stephanie's death is entirely Bruce's fault, and I have yet to hear him acknowledge it as such. It seems that he and his cohorts would take on the guilt for the death of an enemy more readily than the deaths of his own charges.

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runespoor7
2009-05-03 10:35 am UTC (link)

We'll have to agree to disagree on the first point. In the same of historical accuracy, though, I'll point out that there have been times when Batman was the one trying to kill Joker and Gordon kept him from doing so - threatened him to put a bullet through him if he didn't step down, in fact.

Feeling regretful I can understand; trying to destroy themselves from guilt...just, no.
Obviously Dick has a very strict moral code.

it was clear that he would never have taken them on unless he saw the required aptitude for the mantle
That depends on what you read. There have been times when Bruce thought that 'he always knew Dick had a gift. Jason... Jason had only rage.' There have been times when it's been implied, if not outright said, that Bruce didn't train Jason well enough.

He didn't even tell her, his so-called Robin, his true name!
I'm aware that Batgirl and Robin are two different roles entirely, but he never told Cass his name either.

Batman never neglected Steph's training as Robin. He was training her physically and as a detective. She was out on the streets before she reached the level Dick and Tim and possibly Jason had when they started, but in her case it makes sense in that she was already used to being a vigilante. She had years of experience as a crime-fighter by that point, and he didn't let her out on her own either; she was always either with him or with Cass.

he took on Stephanie as Robin purely to lure Tim back
No, he doesn't answer Alfred's accusation. And given Bruce's inability to communicate, I don't think we have to take his silence as a simple confirmation. He didn't answer the Batfamily's questions when they asked him if he'd murdered Vesper Fairchild, either, remember?

Whether consciously or not, he set her up to fail from the start, giving her just enough training to make her dangerously overconfdent in the process.
That's a big assumption. My assumption is that he was as usual playing Merry Mixed Messages - "I don't mind your talking." "Stephanie go home." "Excellent initiative." "You disobeyed, you're fired" - the way he always has with her and with every other member of the Batfamily. I personally don't doubt that he'd have taken her back a few weeks down the line, but it's never been Robin's thing to wait and do nothing. Whether Batman is aware of it or not, Robin is meant to disobey him anyway when Batman is going off-tracks. And that's what Steph did when she started implementing the War Game.

Steph's death was a pile of "badly-handled", and as far as I'm concerned, the more they sweep it under the rug, the better. The derailment of Leslie Thompkins' character alone was... ugh.

It seems that he and his cohorts would take on the guilt for the death of an enemy more readily than the deaths of his own charges.
The case with Jason's suit has been standing in the Cave since before Tim became Robin. Every single time DC can shove it down the readers' throat that Batman is Angsting and Feeling Responsible for his charges, they do - often with a helpful shot of aforementioned Case.

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ladymirth
2009-05-03 11:38 am UTC (link)

there have been times when Batman was the one trying to kill Joker and Gordon kept him from doing so - threatened him to put a bullet through him if he didn't step down, in fact.

This seems like something that would be a relief for me to read. Can you tell me which issue this happened in?

There have been times when it's been implied, if not outright said, that Bruce didn't train Jason well enough.

Since none of that was ever hinted at upto A Death in A Family, I'm putting that down to lame DC retcons.

He didn't answer the Batfamily's questions when they asked him if he'd murdered Vesper Fairchild, either, remember?

He was an emotional wreck during the Vesper confrontation, as opposed to when Alfred confronted him. Besides, is my memory faulty or didn't he say that Stephanie was never really Robin, somewhere down the line?

My assumption is that he was as usual playing Merry Mixed Messages
Which is one reason that I am convinced that Post-crisis Batman should never been allowed to raise children. He's systematically psychologically scarred Jason, Tim, Cass and Steph with his "merry mixed messages" and the only reason I can fathom that Dick turned out relatively well-adjusted was because he was raised Pre-Crisis and even then went all grimdark avenger in his adulthood, thanks to Bruce's emotional incompetence. XD

The derailment of Leslie Thompkins' character alone was... ugh.
My reaction to that was a little more extreme than "ugh", honestly. *takes pills* *breathes*

The case with Jason's suit has been standing in the Cave since before Tim became Robin. Every single time DC can shove it down the readers' throat that Batman is Angsting and Feeling Responsible for his charges, they do - often with a helpful shot of aforementioned Case.
And then somebody invariably comes up to him and reminds him that it wasn't his fault Jason was a stupid kid. Also, it didn't stop him making the same mistake with Stephanie, nor did she ever get a case of any kind in the Cave, presumably because Batman suspected she wasn't dead and that automatically absolved him of the need to feel just as guilty over what happened to her or honor her contribution in any way.

In the end though, it seems silly to try and draw any conclusions from a so much bad writing. I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree. =)

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runespoor7
2009-05-03 12:10 pm UTC (link)

This seems like something that would be a relief for me to read. Can you tell me which issue this happened in?
>_> ...It happened in Hush. Yes, I know. (And there have been other occasions where he was thisclose to killing someone - often someone who'd made the silly mistake of attempting to do away with Nightwing or Robin. Or the lovely, lovely time where he tried to kill Joker under fear toxin because he saw Jason dead.)

Besides, is my memory faulty or didn't he say that Stephanie was never really Robin, somewhere down the line?
No, Steph asked him on her deathbed and he told her she had really been Robin. Which is the only thing I try to remember about that scene, given that Willigham has Steph saying that it's all her fault she's dying. *headdesk* (About the Vesper Faurchild situation and Bruce's emotional state - it's fair to say being an emotional wreck is his most constant state of being since the Crisis.)

I thought he was doing well with Cass, and I don't think he was close enough to Steph to have much of an influence on her beside the Scary Bat God aspect. But honestly, I love the fucked-upness of the relations in the Batfamily too much. Dick himself has pretty serious guilt issues.

My reaction to that was a little more extreme than "ugh", honestly. *takes pills* *breathes*
So was mine, but I don't want to think about it. It never happened! :D

it didn't stop him making the same mistake with Stephanie
I'd say he made the opposite mistake. With Jason, he did nothing but encourage him further, and didn't do anything to stop until it was far too late. With Stephanie, every tiny mistake she makes leads directly to a threat that he'll do everything to stop her. Irony pwns.

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