InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "smile"

benicio127 (benicio127) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-10-02 13:01:00

Entry tags:

char: robin/damian wayne, char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, creator: grant morrison, creator: judd winick

What do Jason and Damian have in common...
...Other than attitude?

Chopping off people's heads. Yep.

Third time's a charm... let's hope this isn't another failpost this week for me. Gar.

From the Batman and Son TPB.
Little D nearly kills Tim, Batman gets pissed off at him, he begs to be given another chance, etc.

And from Batman #635

Jason's last line there is ridiculously badass.

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beoweasel
2009-10-02 05:49 pm UTC (link)

Bleh...just another reason why I don't like Damien. And maybe it's just out of context, but I hate how it makes Tim look so frigging spineless.

The reason why Batman, Robin, and Nightwing don't kill, isn't because they're afraid to take a life, but because they know what it could lead to. They don't kill, because the very act is a slippery slope, that lethal force will be an answer for every situation. And when will it stop? Who are they to decide who lives and dies? That's a level of power that no single man should have, because it can easily corrupt.

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	omgwtflolbbqbye 2009-10-02 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't read it as Tim being scared-horrified of what Damien did as much as appalled and disgusted. As for the not killing rule, I remember later in that story arc when Bats take Damien out for the first time he describes the no-kill policy as actually being a sign of just how disciplined and good at their jobs the bat-family is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	stig 2009-10-02 11:02 pm UTC (link)
	Much as I like Damian, Tim is perfectly right to look scared and disgusted - remember, his parents, best friend AND the love of his life had all been murdered (I'm not too sure- the Mum was definitely murdered, right?). That's enough to make anyone a wee bit oppossed to the idea of taking a life. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	wizardru 2009-10-02 05:58 pm UTC (link)
	Wait...what? Damian murdered someone as Robin and he what, Bruce gave him a pass? WTF? And since when is Tim a whiny little man-bitch? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-10-02 06:03 pm UTC (link)
	To be fair to Tim, he was trying to give Damian a chance (Since he is Bruce's son) and is currently on a steep uphill gradient of being appalled at what an unspeakably ghastly little shit Damian is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlroberson 2009-10-02 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	Damian was raised by the League of Assassins and had to be taught not to do this sort of thing first off. It's not really your fault when you're a child raised in that environment. (Reply to this) (Parent)

kagome654
2009-10-02 06:09 pm UTC (link)

Ignoring the grisly mess there (Seriously, Damian, why'd you bring that home? On the off chance you could use it to distract/horrify Tim...? Wouldn't the grenade alone have been sufficient? Otherwise you're just like a cat leaving mouse guts all over your owner's pillow, no one is gonna praise you for it), I really wish Damian would find more reasons to mimic other people's voices. Like a party trick. Yeah.

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	icon_uk 2009-10-02 06:25 pm UTC (link)
	He brought it home to show his daddy what an effective crimefighter he would be. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kagome654 2009-10-02 06:33 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, clearly kitty behavior. Damian also stands on any piece of paper you put on the floor (no matter how small) and destroys living room furniture. Not much of a point of carting the head around, Batman has already seen the headless corpse by this point and Damian simply blows up the head before Bruce gets back to the cave. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	deepspaceartist 2009-10-02 06:36 pm UTC (link)
	Well, to be fair, keeping things on the off-chance they'll be usefull if a Bat-family trait. You just know keeps every one-off gizmo he ever uses around, as well as a wide array of gadgets that would require an oddly specific set of circumstances to happen. Keeping a severed head just to mess with Tim is yust proof that Damien is both a Wayne and an Al Ghul. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-10-02 06:24 pm UTC (link)
	Fans enjoy griping about "Last Laugh," but Nightwing and Oracle had a brief discussion about kill the Joker and/or letting him die. Nightwing points out that the fact most superheroes/masked vigilantes are only "put up with" by the public is because they don't kill the bad guys. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-10-02 06:26 pm UTC (link)
	Compare and contrast with "We don't kill people because we don't want to have fill out the paperwork" that Willingham put into Tim's mouth. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-10-02 09:45 pm UTC (link)
	What a surprise, coming from a political conservative like Willingham. [/sarcasm] (Reply to this) (Parent)

kagome654
2009-10-02 06:29 pm UTC (link)

Eh...if the vigilantes used discretion and only killed big names (like the Joker) I doubt the public would be any more or less tolerant of them in general. On the contrary, I think it may play into the public's own desire for retribution and revenge, which may not be a good thing but still clearly exists. Superheroes go above and beyond the law all the time, some people may be quite content to see them take that last step and simply eliminate criminals who repeatedly elude justice. Maybe.

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	yaseen101 2009-10-02 06:34 pm UTC (link)
	They don't necessarily have to kill Joker themselves, in a more realistic setting, Joker would have already been executed by court order. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	starwolf_oakley 2009-10-02 07:09 pm UTC (link)
	In LAST LAUGH, President Lex Luthor ordered the Joker's death. That's what started Nightwing and Barbara were talking about "standing aside" and letting the Joker get killed. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	yaseen101 2009-10-03 12:27 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I kind of hate those kinds of stories, where all hell breaks loose and everyone's out to kill Joker, there is no excitement because you know he is going to survive. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	unknownscribler 2009-10-04 09:51 am UTC (link)
	Why in the name of God should that startle them? Are they retarded or something? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	menagerie 2009-10-02 08:07 pm UTC (link)
	Heck, in a more realistic setting he probably wouldn't have made it to court. The guy kills policemen all the time, which often is a good way to get yourself shot/killed. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

yaseen101
2009-10-03 12:24 am UTC (link)

I remember in Gotham Central where he got shot several times through the chest and was still alive and conscious albeit paralyzed on the ground. There is definitely some healing factor going on. I would say it would take something like a high octane lethal injection or a 100000 volt chair to properly kill him and be done.

Recently, I have been giving much thought to a 'what if Joker dies?' scenario and the results were actually interesting. Too bad the writers never dares to go into that direction.

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	runespoor7 2009-10-02 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think Gordon would stand for it, though. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-10-02 06:43 pm UTC (link)

I remember at least once (in the Loeb/Lee "Hush" storyline) where Batman was ready to kill the Joker and Gordon approached gun drawn and stopped him and told him he would take Bats in/shoot him if he actually killed the Joker. When Bruce reminds Gordon of what Joker has done to him (crippled his daughter, killed his wife), Gordon says he knows but will not let Batman destroy himself which is what would happen if he killed Joker (paraphrasing here). In Gordon's case, he won't let Batman kill FOR Batman's sake not for the criminal.

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	runespoor7 2009-10-02 06:50 pm UTC (link)
	There's also an example of Jim being thisclose to killing the Joker himself, but on the whole I don't Jim would go with it anyway. Whether or not he cares for Bruce, I doubt he'd enjoy the idea that the dangerous violent vigilante haunting Gotham has suddenly lost his moral barrier. Also Hush is very very low on my list of personal canon priority. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	benicio127 2009-10-02 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, Batman gives Gordon the chance to kill the Joker at the end of No Man's Land (after the Joker's just killed Gordon's wife). Gordon ends up shooting Joker in the knee. The Joker thinks it's funny b/c it's like what he did to Babs. Yet... never did the same for Jason. Hmmm. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-10-02 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	A moment that would have been better, IMHO, if one of the other cops had then shot the Joker in the head and said "Me on the other hand, I really don't care if this ends my career..." (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ladymirth 2009-10-03 02:02 pm UTC (link)
	I could always see Alfred doing that, just for the sake of protecting Bruce and his adoptive grandchildren. He's a very practical and protective man who doesn't have the burden of having to represent anyone's anything except refuge and stability for his family. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	yaseen101 2009-10-02 06:40 pm UTC (link)
	I always took it as superheroes being a sort of representation of the people's will, after all these are just mostly normal people risking their lives and I think the general public at least has some inkling about that. I might be rambling nonsense but it's more like if they kill, they might inspire others to kill. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	unknownscribler 2009-10-04 09:49 am UTC (link)
	And frankly Dick is terribly wrong. (Reply to this) (Parent)

yaseen101
2009-10-02 06:33 pm UTC (link)

I get the feeling that Bruce kept Damian around because as the old saying goes, 'keep your allies close and your enemies close'. At this point, Damian has no place to go but his mother wherein he might grow up to be a dangerous assassin and a potential enemy, why kick him out of the streets when Bruce can subvert Damian into a more nobler path (and keep a closer eye on him in the cave).

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	jarodrussell 2009-10-02 09:37 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe Bruce's theory is that everybody gets one extra chance, since Cassandra anyway. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	yaseen101 2009-10-03 12:18 am UTC (link)
	Well, she is radioactive since Beechen and I have already purged my mind of all the Bat-dickery that went on in her title. I choose to believe that writer's intentionally use her because she is radiated due to bad writing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	taggerung301 2009-10-02 10:24 pm UTC (link)
	that's what I've always thought I really do hope to see Damian slowly mellow out overtime, and I anticipate a scene where he willingly chooses not to kill an enemy because it is wrong (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	yaseen101 2009-10-03 12:20 am UTC (link)
	So far with my experience with Morrison, I think he is a good enough writer but he is more about the 'big zanny ideas' rather than characters so it's up in the air whether that will happen or not. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	toasty_fresh 2009-10-02 07:39 pm UTC (link)
	Also, they're both absolutely adorable! Granted, in a murdering, psychopathic kind of way, but still . . . (Reply to this) (Thread)

	benicio127 2009-10-02 08:16 pm UTC (link)
	HAHAHAH... Yeah, Damian's kinda growing on me. I still don't understand how he gets away with so much, tho. (Reply to this) (Parent)

idreading
2009-10-02 08:54 pm UTC (link)

Err. I think most responsible parents/caregivers' reactions to a 10 year old murdering a cat and carrying its head around would be. Well. Bigger than this. Letting this kid run around free implies complete nepotism and irresponsibility on the part of the Batclan. And that's ignoring the fact that he's already been shot while playing Robin.

Dangerous to himself, dangerous to others, desperately in need of therapy and deprogramming. Where's Child Services when you need 'em?

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	darkblade 2009-10-02 10:21 pm UTC (link)
	Child Services don't exist in superhero universes or else the whole kid sidekick business would have been shut down years ago. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	batcookies 2009-10-02 11:16 pm UTC (link)
	He apparently tries to kill Penguin in the latest preview, so I have to agree with the "dangerous to himself and others" stuff. (Reply to this) (Parent)

icecream_cool
2009-10-02 11:57 pm UTC (link)

This is what drives me nuts with this story arc, especially concerning Alfred's behavior with Damian. All these years you read about Alfred's opinion about the young entering such a dangerous life and losing their childhood, where he has been quite animated about his disapproval. Yet, he can't wait for this 10 year-old to be the new Robin and even gifts him the costume.

Damian, let's face it, has a lot of problems, not only dealing with the Bat-family members but dealing in general with the outside world. This kid can't relate! I would think that would be a much bigger issue for Alfred and Dick, in helping Damian to become part of the society or the world he wants to protect. Sure, they can continue the training, but come on! Putting on a Robin suit is going to make this kid a better person?!

This just drives me nuts and yes, I know it's just a comic book!

Sorry for letting out some stream. :)

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	sistermagpie 2009-10-03 01:10 am UTC (link)
	It may be just a comic, but it goes against what's been established for this particular comic over decades. In order to make Damian Robin you have to restructure a lot of dramatic logic that's worked over the years. (Reply to this) (Parent)

runespoor7
2009-10-03 06:28 am UTC (link)

Alfred's also the one who insisted that Bruce should take Tim as Robin, though, so this isn't the first time that the moral caution of the inner Batfamily does something we on the outside would find arguable if not outright unacceptable.

But I agree that Damian has a lot more problems than the average Batkid. For one, he killed people as Robin and nothing happened.

Putting on a Robin suit is going to make this kid a better person?!

In general, it's supposed to be the idea. At least it was the case with Cass, and it was in the background with Jason. Theoretically, I guess that Alfred/Dick/Bruce thought that by making Damian Robin, they could put him in a position to relate to other people. His number one role would be to protect people, fighting being only the means. So far it doesn't seem like it's been really explored or the main theme.

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icecream_cool
2009-10-03 12:50 pm UTC (link)

You're right, I forgot about Tim. Alfred seemed to have gone against his moral code as way to save Bruce from the destructive path he was on at the time. It didn't work, but it looks like Alfred would almost do anything to save Bruce, even at the risk of putting another kid in the line of fire.

It's funny being a fan of these characters, we know it isn't right for an underage person to put in such dangerous situation. Yet, we love these kids and cheer them on through their struggles.

For me at least, the way Damian has been set up as a character, being Robin isn't the best way to help this kid.

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	lucky_sometimes 2009-10-03 06:25 pm UTC (link)
	I think of it as Alfred using the young to moderate Bruce's behavior. He DOES want them there but he complains once they are, as the safety of others is one way to remind Bruce to elevate the importance of his own safety. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	unknownscribler 2009-10-04 09:54 am UTC (link)
	Maybe Alfred's hoping the little shit will die a horrible karmic death on the streets? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ar_feiniel_ 2009-10-03 02:06 am UTC (link)
	Damian is one creepy little fucker. (Reply to this)

ladymirth
2009-10-03 02:11 pm UTC (link)

It might be hypocritical of me but reacted with "OMGNOES EWEWEW" at the first one and "a bagful of heads of drug-dealers peddling to little kids? AWESOMESAUCE!" to the first. Maybe it has something to do with Damien being a little kid who went and offed a poor ex-con man who was only in prison because he was too afraid of the Bats to get out while Jason was full-grown man who was acting out of his feelings of powerlessness and rage against these scumbags that we each of us has felt at some point in our lives. Killing them was the wrong thing to do, but goddamn if it wasn't satisfying to see, in a base kind of way.

I've always loved Jason but Damien's growing on me, largely thanks to Dini more than Morrison. He'll never be my favourite Robin though.

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