Well, if you haven't noticed not all of it has been polite and I have no interest in conversing with EXTREMISTS.

Extremists, in this case, apparently meaning either "Jewish people" or "people who don't agree with you." Both of which, honestly, being equally offensive.

No extremists being people who only see one side. I'm not saying that they have to agree but the sheer anger is uncalled for, when no one asked them to join the game, no one forced their hand in anything. Calling us out saying we don't know what it is and need to be "enlightened", when they don't know us or know what we know or not know. I do understand why people take offense and in my own opinion that is their opinion and choice to make. I have jewish friends who I love and appreciate like anyone else, because their heritage and religion make no difference to me. I'm Mormon, I've dealt with persecution as well and still do for my decision. My jewish friends haven't had a problem with the game. It's not about all the jews, at all. And it's just as rude claiming that is what it is, as we are about not changing the name.

I won't even get into the fact that, by your definition, you're very much an 'extremist' as well. But please tell me you did NOT just use the "Some of my best friends are ____!" excuse. Please.

Also, I get that you don't see this as being about Jews at all. To you, it's a game. But really, you cannot choose a name with connotations like this an NOT expect people to be angry with you.

Also? Whatever persecution you've dealt with as a Mormon cannot and does not hold a candle to the Holocaust.

Seriously. Take the name change token, and be graceful about it.

Oh, you're MORMON. So. I'm going to make an RPG called "Liberty Jail" and we're going to play the part of the angry mob that murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

But we won't murder him, we'll make it a torture porn comm. Yeah, and we'll be sure to reference all the children of Emma's that died and pass Joe's wives to all the mob members to do as they will, but we're going to do this to discuss religious persecution.

But I've thought it through, and I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm really, really a good person. Really.

....now can you get it? A bit? Or do I need to make a Haun's Massacre RPG? Which... still, not equal to the persecution Jews have faced. NOT EQUAL.

no one asked them to join the game

*looks at community name*

*looks at original post*

Okay!

I can tell you right now I'm probably, in your mind, one of these "extremists". I can also tell you that I see both sides. We don't agree. We're not even going to join the game, the fact that the game is named is what's offensive, not the game itself. and it's offensive to the point where we're not going to ignore it because people cannot be allowed to make such horridly disrespectful choices and expect to get off scot free.

I'm not claiming it's about the jews, or their persecution. I personally am claiming that using the name of such an atrocity for something you'll be doing for FUN is what it's about. like Stoney said, this, for the people who are offended, is like calling an RPG "Liberty Jail", or "Haun's Massacre" and expecting you not to be offended. It honestly has nothing to do with the religions, or with the fact that christianity tries to put down the whole idea behind harry potter, it's about respecting the history, and the people who it STILL AFFECTS TODAY.

For me, what I meant by "extremists" were the people sitting there yelling at us about being neo nazis, that we hate jews, they hope we get sued, all of that. Because it isn't the rational way to reach any sort of conclusion or understanding. I just personally don't respond rationally to people who cannot do that same. I give what I'm given, in that sense. Not a great trait, but I admit it.

I don't think it's about us getting off scott free. We're prepared to deal with the consequences of all of this. We are discussing changing the name, it's just amidst all of the hatred spreading and vileness in people's responses, it makes us less inclined.

For me, roleplaying isn't just fun. I write for a living. I rp not for the sheer enjoyment of it, but to put characters through situations, to flesh them out and come to a more human quality to them, round them out. It helps give me a better understanding of what I am writing. For me, it's as much work as it is amusement.

The thing people keep stating, is that we don't seem to GET that it offends people, when we know that. Repeating our faults over and over again isn't the way to fully resolve anything. Pushing us to the point where we just don't care what people think, isn't the way to go about it either.

Things outside of this entry were already in discussion when it came to the name of the game and all it did was push a lot of the members, myself included, into not wanting to bend to the masses because of the sheer violence in the response. We are considering the change, but not because we've been forced into it, just a continuation of what we'd discussed last night after the very first person, and a couple others were so kind about it.

I've read most of the threads and I've seen very little about neo-nazi's. That isn't rational, I agree.

I....don't understand your logic. "If you guys are meaner, we'll not change it just to spite you" is what it sounds like, to be honest. I personally think that if it is this offensive(which is it, i've seen, and i am personally at least slightly offended), wouldn't you rather AVOID all this anger and vileness and just change it so people can stop being offended and yelling at you out of anger about it? If you know your refusal to change the name only brings more hatred and vileness, aren't you then basically self-inflicting this pain by inviting the hatred?

I'm currently working on writing for a living too, but most of the RPing i do is mostly for fun, it does help to flesh out characters and work on their characterization, but for this roleplay in specific, it's not about the roleplaying being fun or not, it's that most people consider roleplay to be a fun, not-so-serious thing. So to have the name of an enormously serious event tacked to something that is fiction, and has parallels, but is not actually about the holocaust, that's what's getting people angry.

I know you guys get it offends people...but i honestly think that if you truly understood how MUCH it offended people, you wouldn't be getting indignant and keeping the name just because people are being rude to you. it doesn't solve anything for either of you, it only makes the problems worse.

well, i honestly hope you do change it because all this legitimate anger could be dispersed and your feelings, if they're hurt, could be mended, with the simple changing of a name, which someone else has even offered to pay for, so you'd be out nothing. I'll help come up with a new name if you choose to change it, something that can show that the HP universe does parallel the events of WW2 without actually bringing real life terminology into a fantasy world.

Of course. Because using Kristallnacht as your HP RPG name is totally not amazingly awful and people should be polite.

You know what a genocide is, don't you?

Extremist? Sweetheart, I'm not even Jew and I'm feeling embarrassed right now.

Yes, I'm quite aware what Genocide is. Thank you. Feel embarrassed for yourself for being so judgmental.

Please stop being so judgmental about people's judgmentalism.

Playing with Holocaust history--the history of real live people, not fictional ones--real people missing from some of our households--is not exactly polite, you know? There can be good reasons for your fictional explorations, and those reasons have to be wedded with respect for the subject matter and people involved to be good. Your immediate flagging asides of people's objections to seeing the term Kistallnacht come up on our flists day after day is not showing respect.

When you're playing explicitly with Holocaust imagery, you're not in a good position to write off anyone else's reactions to it as extreme--just saying.

You have appropriated the name of a historic, terrifying, brutal, anti-semitic event in order to name a game you're playing for entertainment. No matter what parallels you see between the real Kristallnacht and the fictionalized arc of your game, you are making an explicit, direct comparison between the real oppression and slaughter of Jewish people and the made-up experiences of a series of characters in a game you're playing for fun.

Yes, people are offended; more, many people are hurt and sickened because you've taken part of their identity and made it sport. You're playing with history because it gives your game extra resonance in your eyes; you're trivializing something that real people suffered, lived through, memorialize in the fervent, often frightened hope that it will not, cannot be allowed to happen again.

The children and grandchildren of the Holocaust generation (and for all I know, Holocaust survivors themselves) are telling you that you are causing them grief and pain by your actions. This is entertainment for you - this is family, memory, history, culture to them. Do the right thing and accept the rename token; admit that your claims to the name Kristallnacht are faulty and short-sighted, deeply hurtful, and not thought through.

Admit that the name Kristallnacht has no place being associated with 'downtime' or 'fun'.

And please, do not expect that the people you've hurt should be civil to you as you hurt them.

lol, people who take the Holocaust seriously are OMG EXTREMISTS. Your priorities are seriously out of whack. At the very least, didn't it seem at all tacky or in bad taste to you? Wow. "I am entitled to use the Holocaust however I want for fun! Anyone who says otherwise is a big meanie extremist!" People so far have been more than polite considering, even offering to pay for your own name change out of their own pocket. There are some words you just don't co-opt for fun hobbies. Avoiding anything relating to the Holocaust, Nazis, or racism is a good rule of thumb for you to use in the future.

EXTREMISTS.

I'm really digging your attempts to "other" the people that disagree with you.

OH HAI. YOUR PRIVILEGE IS SHOWING. :D

When I was here there were only a couple dozen comments and, yes, they were polite. Even now I think people have been far more patient with you than you deserve, considering your stubborn, entitled, woe-is-me attitude about a situation you absolutely refuse to understand. That's why the thread has gone from 20-something comments to nearly 300, on a Saturday afternoon no less.

Oh, I see one of your little friends is here calling people "cunts" and such, which I'm sure is causing just as much wank as you are. So I'd like to revise my statement: you and your little friends are causing this much-deserved wank, and I can't wait to see how it affects your little RPG. Positively, I'm sure.