Youka Nitta
Questions about Yoshizumi and Mochimune (and others)--ages and honorifics 
19th-Mar-2009 06:52 pm
[info]lore  and I were getting into a discussion about Yoshizumi's age in this post. I started off with this question:

How old is Yoshizumi? I get the impression that he's closer to Katou's age than Iwaki's, but he refers to Iwaki as "kun" rather than "san". Because even though he's younger, he's still Iwaki's senior in acting experience? Because he feels comfortable enough around Iwaki (and Katou) to be casual with them? He seems to be an experienced actor, because he says he acts in period dramas "all the time," which is why he is familiar with Kyoto. But he seems kind of young to be that experienced, so is he older than he looks, or maybe he's been acting since he was a kid?

I was going to split the difference and guess that he was older than Katou but younger than Iwaki. However, Lore thinks that Nitta-sensei tends to draw the men as hot and young-looking, and the use of "kun" probably indicates that Yoshizumi is slightly older than Iwaki (see the comments of the original post for details). l agree that seems likely, especially when I think about the time that Iwaki goes to visit Yoshizumi after the argument with Asano, and Yoshizumi pats him on the head in a big-brotherly manner, saying, "You're a good boy, Iwaki-kun." (Part 2 of "Jamais Vu," Book 10)

Unfortunately, that kind of messes up my fanfic plot where Yoshizumi, Onozuka, Miyasaka, and Asano are all auditioning for the part of Kikuchi's lover, a man in his early twenties. I guess I can add a comment that Yoshizumi looks much younger than he really is. After all, Asano is recast as Aizawa after Yoshizumi is injured, and I get the impression (though I could be wrong, of course) that Asano is in his twenties, so the age difference doesn't seem to be a problem in the director's mind. Although Aizawa's age doesn't really seem that crucial to the story, anyway.

On the other hand, Mochimune also addresses Iwaki as "kun," and he appears to be younger than Iwaki. In "Core Curriculum" in Book 11, Iwaki thinks to himself that Mochimune is "younger than I thought...I heard he was about my age." If he was expecting someone his own age, that implies that Mochimune is younger than him, maybe in his late twenties? On the other hand yet again, Mochimune obviously doesn't care that much about politeness, and he could be using "kun" as a deliberate means to provoke Iwaki. But on the third hand ^_^, even after they come to a mutual understanding and respect for each other, and Mochimune actually apologizes to Iwaki for his rudeness in "Couple Awards" (Book 13), he still calls Iwaki "kun". (And also still manages to throw in a subtle insult when he says that he assumed Iwaki was the supporting actor in Fuyu no Semi.)

So maybe it's just Mochimune's innate arrogance that he addresses anyone "beneath" him as "kun"--a director, I assume, would normally rank above the actors as he is sort of their boss, although I admit that I'm only guessing, based on TV dramas that I've watched. I suppose it also depends on the relative statuses of the specific director and actor in question. I had my OC director Kitamura address Kikuchi as "san" out of respect for Kikuchi's veteran status, considering that Kitamura is younger and fairly new to the business. And I have been wondering if Mochimune would have the balls to address Kikuchi as "kun" if they worked together. What am I saying? Of course he'd be capable of it! I think he'd be capable of almost anything short of murder in pursuit of his artistic vision. The question is whether provoking Kikuchi in that manner would be of any benefit to Mochimune as a director. He did similarly provoke Iwaki by challenging his pride as an actor when he was trying to recruit Iwaki for his movie. The collision of those two massive egos (referring to Kikuchi and Mochimune, of course) would certainly be fun to watch!

I do agree with Lore's reply to my comment to the original post that it's difficult to tell the characters' ages by looking at them. I'm not sure that I would have guessed that Iwaki was older than Katou if we hadn't been explicitly told so in the manga. His face is pretty youthful; it's more his serious demeanor--compared to Katou's youthful impulsiveness--that conveys an air of maturity to me. Aside from the obviously "old" characters like Iwaki's dad, the only characters whom I immediately assumed were over the age of thirty were Kikuchi and Iwaki's brother Masahiko.

And with Kikuchi, it's partly due to references in the story that make me assume he's older. If I were just looking at the drawings, I think I would guess early-to-mid thirties. But it's implied that he was already a star at his peak when the scandal broke ten years ago, with many films under his belt: "I've seen all your movies," Iwaki tells him. If Kikuchi had only made one or two, Iwaki would've said something like, "I saw your movie" or "I saw both of your movies" (unless he's also seen Kikuchi's American films). But it's mostly Iwaki's fanboyish excitement upon meeting Kikuchi that makes me think Kikuchi must be older--he acts like a kid meeting his hero. So with that in mind, I'm bumping Kikuchi's age up to late thirties or early forties. (In my mind, when I'm writing my Kikuchi/Onozuka stories, Kikuchi is 40, and Onozuka is about 24.)

Masahiko also doesn't really look that old, but his very stern demeanor and stick-up-his-butt attitude definitely give the impression that he's older than Iwaki. In "The Plunderer" (Book 9), when Katou is looking at Iwaki's baby pictures, he finds a photo of young Masahiko holding baby Iwaki, and Masahiko looks to me like he's in his early teens, maybe middle school age, which means that he's older than I thought, at least in his mid-forties when I would have guessed late thirties otherwise.

I would guess that Shimizu's in her thirties; Kaneko strikes me as being younger, both in his age and demeanor--he seems a little inexperienced and out of his depth at times, but to be fair, Katou is a very challenging client. Onozuka and Miyasaka seem to be in their early twenties, although Onozuka is cynical and conniving beyond his years.

I'd love to hear any thoughts or comments that you guys have! And if anyone's more familiar with Japanese honorifics, please feel free to correct me if I'm totally off-base with the "kun" thing.
Comments 
20th-Mar-2009 08:39 am
I think maybe that if it was some kind of working-related difference, Yushizumi would have adressed Iwaki as kouhai, which seems to be the norm when a mentor-relationship is in progress? I think that the -kun is age-related, but then again, what does this gaijin know? *grins*

Masahiko... He seems to me to be around ten when Iwaki is a toddler, but damn, the man looks good. :D - despite the stick.

Shimizu? Yeah, around thrirty-thirtyfive. She has probably married late, what with her career going on and all...

You could send Asano in a fit of rage because Yushizumi is still that good looking. It might be a bit like with wizards: the Japanese age slowly. ;)
21st-Mar-2009 03:26 am
Masahiko... He seems to me to be around ten when Iwaki is a toddler, but damn, the man looks good. :D - despite the stick.

I'm not that good about guessing ages, but I was thinking young Masahiko looked around 12 or 13, but maybe his glasses make him look older to me. But even if he was about 10, that still makes him over 40 by the time he and his wife have Hina-chan. Hmm...I can see him as having stayed single for so long because he was repressing gay tendencies and finally decides to get married because he knows that he needs to carry on the family name and have an heir. I'm sure that he cares about his wife, but I could see him having met her through an omiai matchmaking session. Not that I'm trying to inspire any new plot bunnies or anything... *blinks innocently*


You could send Asano in a fit of rage because Yushizumi is still that good looking.

Hahaha! I can totally see him fuming, "Why is that old man trying out for the same role as me?! Isn't he almost forty by now?!" And Onozuka joking, "Maybe he ate mermaid flesh, to stay young and beautiful forever." (Apparently it's a Japanese legend that eating mermaid flesh makes one immortal. There was a manga series I read based on that idea.)
21st-Mar-2009 09:25 am
Offline life has been burying me, but I ♥ you so much for bringing this up. :-)

I'm as flummoxed as everyone else re: pinning down Yoshizumi's age. For what it's worth, though, I agree that ages don't seem to be a major concern in the casting for Winter Cicada -- after all, Asano originally auditioned for Katou's role. I'd be as inclined to suggest that Asano is older than he looks as vice versa.

Also -- mainly from a anecdotal-autobiographical POV, so take this with the usual bushel of salt -- Asians do enjoy a certain reputation for agelessness, particularly during their late teens to mid-thirties. I was routinely asked if I was a college student until I was around 37. (Then lack of sleep + major weight gain + gray hairs all caught up with me. The wages of sin are a bitch, but that's a lament for some other time. *rueful smile*) I imagine actors who make a point of taking care of their looks (and dyeing away the gray, which I refuse to fuss with) could play younger for far longer (and that's not limited to Asians, for that matter). There are hints during the fire-during-filming footage review (depending on which scanlation one reads) that Yoshizumi's path wasn't always easy -- my own impression is that he might have been orphaned, but was able to succeed as an actor out of sheer tenacity (which in turn may be why he and Iwaki connect at a deeper level than most).

(Also, I'm wary of placing too much weight on the honorifics in the translations. From what I remember, Yoshizumi gets called both "-san" and "-kun" by the director in the review-of-the-fire scene in the English version, and "-san" in the French version, so the evidence isn't consistent. Checking the Japanese originals is on my list of things I haven't gotten around to yet...)

P.S. Geri, you would spark a drabble with that mention of mermaid flesh. Your plotbunnies don't give any quarter to lack of sleep, do they. Off to post it now...


21st-Mar-2009 05:25 pm
Thanks for all your comments, despite the lack of sleep--I was hoping for your insight into Yoshizumi! ^_^

Looking at the sections you linked to, the references to Yoshizumi's experience, it does sound like he's probably older than he looks. Although I did like the idea of him having been a child actor. Hmm...although he could still have been one; a lot of child actors have trouble making the transition into an adult career, so that could have contributed to his struggle. Oops, I feel another plot bunny nibbling at my brain now!

Regarding Asians looking young--when I was in my early 20s, I remember that I used to feel a little annoyed that I always got carded when I went to a nightclub. And then it started to feel flattering, and now that I'm...er, a bit older...I'm a little sad that I don't get carded anymore! ^_^ And as you say, not limited to us Asians either--I remember thinking that Johnny Depp looked too young to play the title role in "Donnie Brasco" even though he was the right age, and he still looks damned good for 40-something. (Maybe he has partaken of the mermaid flesh? ^_^)

Asano: he could be older, but his personality reads "young" to me. The way that he's so confident that his clever plan to break up Iwaki and Katou will work kind of gives me the impression of inexperience, of someone who hasn't really had his assumptions challenged up until now. Then again, overconfidence and emotional immaturity aren't necessarily limited to chronological age.
22nd-Mar-2009 09:56 pm
I agree with you about Asano coming across as young... and I just rechecked chapter 44, where (in the English scan) Shimizu slaps him and says, "Asano-kun, you really shouldn't judge. You're young, but full of prejudice."

On a related note, I did some surfing on "-kun" vs. "-san" just now (sparked by noticing that Shimizu uses "Iwaki-san" and "Katou-san" in her conversation with Asano. Lots of intriguing generalizations/assertions/anecdotes I don't have time to verify (much less) organize just now, but the impression I'm getting is:

- usage of -kun/-san not strictly determined by age

- a person may use -san and -kun re: another person depending on the situation. -kun can be used affectionately among guy friends who are around the same age -- like calling someone "buddy," from the sound of it.

jerf.com calls this "flexible politeness," and gives the best summary I've come across:

It is possible in Japanese to change the suffix, and politeness level attached to it, you use with one particular person. That means that "politeness" in Japanese is situational and not a fixed status given to someone like in most European languages. You could call a friend or relative alterning the suffix "-chan", "-kun", "-san", "-sama", or even "sensei" if that person is in a position of greater knowledge than you in that situation and teaching you something. A husband teaching his wife how to drive a car or use a computer could be called "sensei" by her at that particular time. She could very well change suffix in the course of the same conversation.


- several sites mentioned that the use of honorifics has been in decline among younger Japanese, that they're complicated even for native Japanese to manage, etc. One guy argues that anime/manga fans make too big a deal about them; I wouldn't want to trust this assertion without doing more research, but GoogleBooks brings up Masayoshi Shibatani's The Languages of Japan (Cambridge UP, 1990), which at least supports the claims of fluidity and difficulty: "The variation along the honorific axis epitomizes the nature of contextual dependency the Japanese language exhibits. Native speakers of Japanese also find the correct use of honorifics most difficult to master" (p. 392).

22nd-Mar-2009 10:38 pm
Thanks for sharing your research! It's comforting and daunting at the same time to know that even the Japanese have trouble with honorifics--if they can't get it right, what chance do I have? But on the other hand, I don't feel too badly if I get it wrong! ^_^

I just remembered that Del Rey has an honorifics explanation at the beginning of each of their manga titles--very simplified, I'm sure, just to give English readers a basic grasp of the concept. For what it's worth, the entry on "kun" reads, "This suffix is used at the end of boys' names to express familiarity or endearment. It is also sometimes used by men among friends, or when addressing someone younger or of a lower station."
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