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With regard to the request he made of Dumbledore:
This request we do get to see Severus make. However, it is slightly more complicated than the request he makes of Voldemort, since he ends up requesting protection (something he assumes Dumbledore is both able and willing to give them) for the entire family. Let's go back to the scene itself.
Severus, apparently in great distress judging by the broken quality of his speech, relates that Voldemort "thinks [the prophecy] means Lily Evans!" Dumbledore points out that the prophecy did not refer to a woman, but "to a boy born at the end of July" - a very neat replacement of the vague statement Severus heard ("The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...") with Dumbledore's own interpretation of it (motivated by...? Speculation on this issue is rampant). Severus replies with " You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down – kill them all – " Despite the acknowledgement he has just made that the child is the subject of the prophecy and thus the main target, in his worry and fear he immediately reverts again to the danger posed specifically to Lily, even going so far as to refer to her as if she were Voldemort's main target ("he is going to hunt her down"). Dumbledore responds to the distressed young man with manipulation, pointing out that "surely" Voldemort will spare the woman if his follower really does care about her all that much and suggesting (disingenuously and speciously) that Severus offer the child "in exchange" for "mercy" towards her. Severus stumblingly answers this suggestion with "I have - I have asked him -". Again, his speech is broken and he seems nearly too distressed to speak coherently. It is also unclear if he simply stopped speaking, implying he had said something along the lines of 'kill the child but spare the woman,' or if Dumbledore interrupted him before he could say exactly what he actually requested of Voldemort (beyond the implication he had asked for Lily's life in some manner). Dumbledore immediately rounds on him contemptuously, interpreting his answer back at him to mean that he "did not care about the deaths of her husband and child," to which accusation Severus makes no reply. After a moment of silence Severus finally makes his actual (versus an implied) request of Dumbledore: “Hide them all, then [....] Keep her – them – safe. Please.” He asks Dumbledore to protect all of them, stumblingly correcting his instinctive immediate focus on Lily to include the others. He then answers Dumbledore's demand for something "in return" with the word "anything."
Keep that in mind - Severus agrees without qualification to do "anything" merely a few heartbeats after Dumbledore has driven him to explicitly request the protection of all three of them, James included.
Now, I think we can reasonably suppose that at this point in time Severus believed that Dumbledore was not only able but willing to protect and hide the people fighting against Voldemort under his command, as well as their child. He seems surprised at Dumbledore's request for payment (as indeed I was) - it seems natural to him, as it does to me, to suppose that a man supposedly vocally championing love, tolerance and justice would automatically care about the wellbeing of his subordinates, and so would do all in his power to protect them regardless of any payment or return favor from the person delivering the warning that they have been targeted. But Severus requests the protection of all of them in the end, and agrees to whatever Dumbledore wants in return. Given what we can suppose of his view of Dumbledore's willingness here, Severus' ability to save or damn any one of the three is equal in a way it was not with Voldemort. It is limited, of course, by Dumbledore's willingness to protect them, but it is limited equally in all three cases, as far as Severus knows or can suppose. Therefore, it seems at first glance that, despite the eventual request to save all of them, Severus' conduct here is at first possibly even more damning than his request to Voldemort for Lily's life alone. Especially considering Dumbledore's neat little manipulative trick with the "exchange" argument - it's specious, but only if you stand back and think for a moment. In the rush of the narrative, it is unfortunately easy to take what he says as given and simply read the scene as: 'Severus admits to having callously offered to exchange the life of an infant for that of its mother (who was, not entirely unpredictably, willing to die to protect her son), and only requests protection for the others when pressed.'
But, given the fact that his ability to save the lives of all three is here equal...does he actually specifically request only the life of one, and knowingly, deliberately ignore the other two? He certainly does not argue against saving James and Harry in any way, or propose any absurd (and specious) "exchange" to Dumbledore along the lines of convenience or any such thing, of course. But does he at first abandon the husband and son to their fates, as many seem to read him doing based on that little 'exchange' with Dumbledore, only reluctantly including them when Dumbledore presses upon him?
I think it quite possible to read the scene differently, especially once you realize that Dumbledore's dig about exchanging the son for the mother is both disingenuous and specious. It is, in fact, designed to manipulate Severus - already an emotional wreck and neither fully rational nor fully coherent - into an even less powerful and more pliant position, where he is less likely to resist Dumbledore's taking advantage of his distress to gain himself a spy. And it succeeds. Dumbledore's got his number down, you have to admit that.
Subtracting Dumbledore's little game, look again at what Severus says and consider his state of mind. It's obvious, of course, that by far the greatest part of his emotional and psychic energy is taken up with the threat of danger to Lily. This is not surprising, given his history with her, and I think it fairly understandable (I will return to this issue later). He's so eaten up with worry about her, in fact, that even factual information about the specificity of targets is too much for him to keep straight: although he knows that the child is the main target and is pointedly reminded of this by Dumbledore, he repeatedly refers to Lily as if she were the particular object of Voldemort's wrath. He also switches incoherently between "her son," "she"/"her" and "them"/"them all," even before Dumbledore presses him about the lives of husband and son: "He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down – kill them all – ”.
I think his line to Dumbledore just before this is the key here: "You know what I mean." I think he means just what he says: that although he is concentrating on Lily because the bulk of his present emotions have to do with her, he is in fact (stumblingly, incoherently) asking not just for her life alone, specifically, but for Lily and her entire family to be protected. In his great distress and stuttered warning to Dumbledore, "Lily" is his shorthand for the conceptual unit, "Lily and her family," "Lily and those in danger with her because of that stupid prophecy." He assumes (perhaps semiconsciously) that Dumbledore understands that, having given warning that Lily is in danger because her son has been targeted by Voldemort, Severus means for Dumbledore to hide the entire family.
In actual fact, to speak any one of their names in connection with his warning is to place all of their lives in Dumbledore's hands, considering their relation to one another - a relation of which Severus of course is fully aware. But that again is something rather passed over by the narrative voice.
By making the request at all he obviously assumes that Dumbledore is not only able but willing to protect his underlings, which includes not only Lily but James and presumably would include their infant child, the actual target, as well. And where is it indicated that that is supposed to have been an unreasonable or unexpected assumption for him to make? That's the sort of assumption one generally makes about people who parade themselves as the upholders of justice and tolerance and all that is good, isn't it?
I think his surprise at the very idea of being asked for payment indicates that Severus did, in fact, assume that Dumbledore's immediate, natural reaction to receiving a warning that two of his subordinates and their son had been targeted for death would be to rush to protect them all - even if, in the messenger's haste and distress, the warning itself was worded in a vague manner focusing on only one of the three people at risk. (And if he is not supposed to assume that, what does that say about Dumbledore and his conduct towards those fighting for him?) So no, I don't believe that the only solid reading of Severus' request to Dumbledore is that he callously ignored husband and child and only reluctantly tried to save them as well. It only seems that way because of the specious "exchange" Dumbledore proposes he offer to Voldemort, and the stumbling hesistancy of his reply that he had asked something of madman, followed by his silence when Dumbledore accuses him of "not caring" about the others (a specific accusation I will turn to in a moment). Regardless of who he cared about, Severus acted to protect all three people here, as far as his ability to do so allowed. (Acting to protect regardless of personal feeling: something that apparently becomes a habit with Severus, to judge by his actions in the second war!) And his asking only for Lily when speaking with Dumbledore would of course not condemn James and Harry anyway. Once the initial warning is given (accomplished as soon as Severus had spoken any specific name Dumbledore could use as a reference to judge Voldemort's target), Dumbledore can choose to protect who he pleases, regardless of what Severus requests. Again, something Severus must be well aware of.
"....they were full-time fighters, that's what they did, until Lily fell pregnant with Harry. So then they went into hiding." -- JKR @ Carnegie Hall, Oct'07
This means that either Lily was actually STILL pregnant when Snape went to ask Albus to help or the Potters were already in hiding when Albus is giving Snape a hard time on the hill.
IF Lily is pregnant, then protecting Lily automatically means protecting her son (to be). It also makes MUCH more sense of 'hunt her down' - since to kill her before the baby is born would mean hunting HER. Even Muggles can KNOW the child will be a son before birth - hardly surprising that wizards can do the same - especially when one remembers all the importance placed on 'heirs'
At this point, I'm just considering it an appropriate possibility. It has never sat well with me that Voldy waited over 6 months after Harry's birth to decide on him. Sounds much more 'real' that he decided even before birth.
It isn't THAT big of a deal to wait and kill the child after birth - he should still be an easy kill. At least it wasn't until the Potters went into hiding. And the Late Winter visit to Albus on the hill works just as well BEFORE Harry's birth as after. -- Hwyla
Voldemort's sitting and waiting is troublesome, yes, but not entirely uncharacteristic of him, based on what we see of him in VoldWar II.
Really, I think that in that interview Rowling just misspoke, based on her own hazy recollections of her work (since she apparently never reread any of it, ever). And Severus' comment about hunting her down, while certainly tying in with the pregnancy theory, also IMO works just as well as the slip of the tongue of a distraught young man terrified of the danger he's just put the love of his life into. Obviously any attempt on Harry's life is going to put his parents in danger, especially considering their role in the war beforehand; I think Severus honestly just misspoke here too. But you raise some very interesting possibilities!
By merely waiting until the child is born. Snape's request to spare Lily would then mean Voldy would delay action until the child was born. Which in truth happens, altho' part of that might be because they went into hiding. However, Peter is recruited VERY soon after Harry's birth (1-2 months) - that can be construed as 'action' -- Hwyla
But IF Snape doesn't go to Albus until the next year then I have no idea at all why Voldy waited so long - especially since he already had Peter working for him by that time.
I mean why in the world would Voldy NOT attack once the child was born, when he not only isn't in hiding but has a spy among their friends - it makes no sense at all.
Whereas, IF Lily was pregnant when Snape went to Albus, then she's 'off-limits' until she has the child - specifically because Voldy has decided to let her live. But then she goes into hiding before the child is even born and Voldy doesn't have any idea where she is.
There has to be a reason or 'event' that Sirius can point to Peter having been Voldy's spy for a year - so 'something' happened around Harry's first Halloween or so to point out that thers's a spy in the Order. My guess would be a first attempt to catch the Potters.
It only makes 'logical' sense to me. Not that that means I am right. JKR doesn't necessarily follow logic in her story. -- Hwyla
In truth, I think JKR has messed up this particular plotline/timeline. She never puts it in the actual books, but she seems to have moved the date of hiding several times in her outlines (based on the answers she has given in interviews) At one point it was just after Harry's Christening, then next it was before, then the last time she mentions it, it is while Lily is pregnant.
It is quite possible (since she apparently doesn't reread) that she forgot (or decided that it made Snape look too good) to keep with the clue that the Potters went into hiding because of info from Albus' spy
So for all 'I' know JKR has it in her mind that Snape's running to Albus on the hill is after the Potters are actually in hiding, but Snape doesn't know it
After all, I still don't know what to make of the fact that Albus knows Snape is a DE on the hill, but allowed him to leave on the night of the eavesdropping without an obliviate -- Hwyla
Don't forget that Fudge wasn't even involved with the Aurors' side of the war, he was in Magical Catastrophes, disguising attacks on Muggles as non-magical accidents (or as non-magical attacks), and after Godric's Hollow he only knew the version Dumbledore wanted him to know. Even Minerva only knew what Dumbledore wanted her to know. Also, Fudge seems to think Albus had more than one spy, yet we see no evidence for others.
I do think the Fidelius could have been suggested a while before it was actually cast if it was a spell the Potters and their friends were not familiar with, so they couldn't cast it themselves without Albus teaching them, and he only did so when he gave up on being the Secret Keeper himself.
Also, Dumbledore was certain of his interpretation of the prophecy, that it referred to a boy born in late July 1980 - enough to say it when it appeared that Voldemort might have had a completely different interpretation. Knowing the prophecy was overheard he knew that either the Potters or the Longbottoms were at risk from the moment the boys were born. And neither of the Potters had a day job. He could have had them hiding (or at least taking security measures of sorts) from August 1980 regardless of Severus' turning. And Voldemort would counter that by having DEs popping up in Godric's Hollow for reconnaissance, causing the Potters to add more defenses. So he'd want an inside agent - and IMO he asked Severus who might be an option from among the Potters' friends - which would be how Severus found out. So Sirius might believe Peter had been recruited in September-October when he was only recruited around December or whenever the hilltop meeting was supposed to have taken place.
I do not believe this is true - only that it is one possibility. Many folks read that scene as if it was one sentence at the time of bk3. That the spy's report that sent them into hiding was immediately followed up with the Fidelius. At the time, I liked top point out that the two thoughts were actually two sentences. The timing of the offer of Fidelius does not necessarily correspond to the timing of the spy's warning. The scene reads just as well if the spy's warning comes first and then after several times where the Potters are discovered (found it difficult to hide from Voldy) THEN the Fidelius was suggested.
As I said - in truth I think JKR blew this one. Since she has given several different times for the Potters to go into hiding, I personally think she never actually bothered to really figure it all out. It's my true opinion that Fudge's comment in PoA suggests that Snape became Albus' spy before the Potters went into hiding (that would apparently work with Snape's request on the Hill) and that they only eventually decided to use the Fidelius because trying to hide from Voldy had become too difficult.
I think much of DH involves JKR being unhappy that we didn't all fall into line at the end of HBP and find Snape 'evil'. For 'me', having Albus accuse him of being a DE straight off on the hill, just doesn't work with what she had written previously - it doesn't 'work' with Albus exclamations of Snape's 'return' to the good side IF he always knew Snape was 'bad' from the beginning. And for me that comment on the hill as to Snape being a DE puts a very scary twist on Snape's escape after the eavesdropping.
But then - I am convinced of a different timeline from you. One which puts only a few months between the time of the prophecy and that meeting on the hill. Whereas you apparently see an extra year inbetween.
Obviously this is a subject where we will not see eye-to-eye. I'm just really happy to be able to discuss a difference in opinion of theories in such a reasonable manner. Especially considering how 'nasty' some other discussion have gotten over similar discussions elsewhere -- Hwyla
The incoherency of the timeline is one of those things that drives me personally nuts. You CAN'T really get one, single, coherent timeline together out of what we are given in canon. So it seems everyone just sort of has their own...which is great. Fanfic possibilities abound! :)
Yes, but how many months would he have let them drag it on? BTW they never did take him on the offer, which was with him as Secret Keeper. If they knew how to cast the Fidelius I don't see how it could have played out at all - the first time Albus made the offer James would talk to his friends, they'd come up with who should be Secret Keeper and they'd go ahead and cast the charm. The only way I can see it dragged out is if they did not at the time know how to cast it, and he was hoping for them to come around to his offer so he didn't teach it to them for a while but tried arguing with the Potters. Not that I know what the Potters said to make him change his mind - or perhaps he decided James' insistence on trusting his friends meant the attack was fated to happen and gave them the Charm. Because supposedly according to Rowling's interviews Dumbledore had something to alert him - but not the Potters - that they were attacked.
But then - I am convinced of a different timeline from you. One which puts only a few months between the time of the prophecy and that meeting on the hill. Whereas you apparently see an extra year inbetween.
Yes, it's hard to see both viewpoints at once this way. Though I think we also disagree on when the prophecy was made - I am willing to place it really anytime between Harry's conception and his birth that would be convenient to place an interview for a Divination professor and rainy weather - as late as March or April 1980. Wouldn't matter to Severus' knowledge of Lily's pregnancy because they weren't exactly in the same social circles. Lily only came into the picture when Harry's birth was announced or registered (and Dumbledore couldn't do anything about that? I doubt it.) So an April prophecy and December defection make 8 months between the two.
If you place Severus' defection before Harry's birth - how would Voldemort had known who was expecting when and why would he mention his choices to Severus?
The only alternative we have is from Albus who at the end of the school year says he heard the prophecy 15 years before. This is NOT a date that Harry can actually check for validity. Tho' I really have no idea why Albus would lie about the specific date. I can only think he must mean 15 school years ago. After all, it isn't as if you are arguing for June'80 to be the date of the prophecy.
Truthfully, I think this was another case of JKR not thinking it through. Why should couldn't be bothered to make sure the numbers that actually got in the books were right - I don't know. I can excuse her getting it wrong during interviews under pressure, but I'm quite upset that she didn't have someone else check her math on important clues. Or at least figure it out on paper with the help of a calendar.
As for how would Voldy know WHO was expecting. We know that Sev had no idea that the prophecy could possibly pertain to Lily. IF it takes place in Fall'79 then he certainly could NOT have an idea as Lily may not be aware of it herself yet. That is not the case by Feb/Mar/April'80. She will know by then that she is pregnant. She will be 4-6 months along. She will probably be showing by then. If not, she would probably at least have already been seen by a healer (or mid-wife?)
Therefore, with the right person sneaking into her files (at St. Mungo's or wherever) it is not difficult to find out when she is due. As to why he might mention it to Snape - Once Voldy has decided on the Potters it is a good test of Snape's commitment. He OUGHT to be aware of just how much Snape hated James, but he is also quite possibly aware that Snape never really got over Lily.
He IS after all, still waiting for Snape to get a job at Hogwarts, where he will be awfully close to Albus. It wouldn't hurt to have someone's safety (Lily's) to hold over Snape's head.
I must admit that now we see how manipulating Albus can be, I'm not even sure the prophecy didn't happen pre-conception (by a few weeks). I wouldn't put it past him to play up the wonders of love and suggest the joys of children to the 2 couples he had in the Order for whom the other criteria might match.
Anyways' - I therefore place the prophecy at a time when Snape could not possibly know Lily was pregnant - as in before SHE knows. Most probably Halloween, but into Nov'79. I see Voldy deciding on the Potters based on info gained through his other spies. Most likely someone at St. Mungo's.
However I see it equally possible that since the Potters are not yet aware of the danger Lily's pregnancy poses then I have no trouble believing they were telling everyone as soon as they knew. I place Voldy's decision on the Potters as sometime around Feb'80 at which point she is now over 3 months along - possibly late Feb which would have her beginning to show.
Snape asks Voldy not to kill her and so she's safe for a little while - at least she will not be killed before the kid is born, but Snape doesn't trust Voldy and wants her under Albus' protection before the birth. I see him going to Albus in LateFeb/up to veryEarly April'80. April is going on pretty late, I would expect some trees to start blooming, but I'm unsure of exactly how the season changes go in possibly very far north Scotland. We don't know where that Hillside was.
So I see the possibility of as few as 3 moths to as much as 6 months between when Snape was caught eavesdropping and when he met Albus on that Hillside. I see Snape wanting Lily hidden BEFORE the child is born - as he feels he has already gotten Voldy to promise not to kill her while she is pregnant. -- Hwyla
And I see signs of Snape's spying efforts throughout Karkaroff's hearing. Each DE knows so few other DEs, that it makes sense that Snape and Karkaroff mostly knew the same guys. And everyone that Karkaroff suggests is either dead or imprisoned within the last year of the war. I personally believe that the double-crosser Sirius heard the other DEs discussing was Snape - not Peter - Sirius never hears them mention Peter's name. -- Hwyla
They definitely didn't mention Severus by name, because Sirius didn't know he was a DE. But if they did mention Peter by either name or nickname they could have learned it from Sirius. Before he managed to transform and receive some reprieve from the influence of dementors he must have spent much time dwelling on Peter and his perfidy.
Er, Dumbledore said it was 16 years ago, too. (Sorry?)
I was checking to see if he had mentioned a month, because I thought I remembered one, but no. Just that it was cold and wet.
Lynn
There is no mention of anything other than it was on a 'cold wet night' which could really cover many months from late summer to early winter and from late winter to late spring. We have mentions of rain even on September 1st (in GOF). I don't think I can be bothered to check all mentions of weather in canon and compare with the Lexicon's daily calendars for all 7 books. I agree Trelawney was hired while the academic year '79-'80 was in progress but we do not know why there was an opening, how long the position was open or anything like that. But when Harry sees the prophecy record (in June 1996) he sees a date about 16 years earlier, based on which the Lexicon people decided the prophecy was most likely made in spring. But with Rowling's record I am willing to accept a broader range of dates, I don't think it matters one way or the other.
As for how would Voldy know WHO was expecting. ... She will probably be showing by then. If not, she would probably at least have already been seen by a healer (or mid-wife?)
But at the time Severus heard the prophecy he had no idea. Neither he nor the DEs that were talking to him had seen her in months and the sneaking into St Mungo's to look at records (if there ever was any of that) hadn't happened yet. At the time Severus brought the prophecy to Voldemort he could have had no idea Lily was expecting even if her pregnancy was rather advanced. So for a change I believe Dumbledore when he says Severus had no idea whom he was placing in danger by reporting the prophecy regardless of when it happened. He probably reported the prophecy that very night before any other DE had the chance to report that he was seen anywhere near Dumbledore and hadn't done anything useful about the situation.
Therefore, with the right person sneaking into her files (at St. Mungo's or wherever) it is not difficult to find out when she is due. As to why he might mention it to Snape - Once Voldy has decided on the Potters it is a good test of Snape's commitment. He OUGHT to be aware of just how much Snape hated James, but he is also quite possibly aware that Snape never really got over Lily.
While he could have sent someone to do so I doubt he'd trust anyone, I doubt he would have chosen his target before the actual births even if he knew who was expecting.
He IS after all, still waiting for Snape to get a job at Hogwarts, where he will be awfully close to Albus. It wouldn't hurt to have someone's safety (Lily's) to hold over Snape's head.
Actually I don't think he was. I don't think Voldemort was ready to send an agent to Hogwarts yet. Though in 1980 there was enough pressure to bring about the appointment of a new Minister and a DMLE head who introduced tougher policies, so I'm thinking if it hadn't been for the prophecy Severus might have been applying for the DADA job as early as for the '80-'81 year (ie a year before he eventually did in canon). All depends on how confident he would have felt. As for holding Lily's safety over Severus' head - either he got over her - so she can't be held over his head, or he hadn't, and he can't be trusted around Dumbledore.
I must admit that now we see how manipulating Albus can be, I'm not even sure the prophecy didn't happen pre-conception (by a few weeks). I wouldn't put it past him to play up the wonders of love and suggest the joys of children to the 2 couples he had in the Order for whom the other criteria might match.
Or perhaps expressed anxiety over the fact that fewer couples were having children that year? After all in Severus' year over 100 students took DADA OWLs but Harry's year has only 40 students. And Harry was among the youngest in his year, so the trend would have been apparent to Dumbledore for some months. I don't put it past him.
I place the hilltop meeting around December 1980 because this allows Moody's hunt for Igor Karkaroff to have been the result of a tip-off by Severus.
I don't think Severus thought anything about how Voldemort might interpret the prophecy nor did he think it was necessarily about someone who was not yet born at the time it was made until Voldemort told him.
I totally agree that at the time Snape delivered the prophecy he could not know Lily was pregnant. Especially since I believe the Prophecy happened around the time of conception. I was referring to a later date - the one where Voldy is telling Snape he has targeted the Potters. By which time Lily has then been pregnant for several months.
As I understand it then - for you much of this depends upon the Potters already being in hiding BEFORE Snape turns to Albus - whereas for me Snape's info is what sends them into hiding - based on the clue from PoA.
Altho' I can agree that Fudge was hardly likely to know everything. He wasn't minister at the time, so I'm not sure he would be involved in Albus' telling the Ministry that Snape was his spy in '81. But it does kind of depend upon what his position at the time was. We're pretty sure he was in Law Enforcement since he was involved with the arrest of Sirius. But to become Minister less than 10 years later, I'm going to assume he wasn't TOO far down the Ministry ladder.
Mostly, I accept it because it's the only clue JKR gives us in the books as to when the Potters went into hiding. And we have no clue whatsoever that the Longbottoms ever DID go into hiding. IF Albus would hide the Potters just because they were preggers then the same should hold for the Longbottoms - at least until Snape tells Albus the real target.
So - back to the meeting on the Hill. For your timeline, Albus already has the Potters in hiding and yet he's stringing Snape along. Could fit - as I said previously - it's one or the other.
And I agree entirely about Snape and tip-offs -- Hwyla
But even then someone who wasn't in her social circle wouldn't know from casual sources that she was pregnant. And only the person who was sent to look the information up would know from non-casual sources. So unless you are saying Voldemort sent Severus on this mission I don't think he knew Lily had been pregnant until he saw the birth announcement. (And what access does Severus have to St Mungo's? Unless this was his previous cover job.) And even after knowing that Lily had a son in late July he wouldn't have gone to Dumbledore because this really wasn't an obvious interpretation of the part of the prophecy he delivered, it only looks obvious after the fact. But personally I think a Dark Lord has to be a lot more idiotic than canon-Voldemort to choose one definite target before the children were born (if he even assumes the prophecy refers to someone not born yet). So while he might have taken a casual interest in narrowing down the potential candidates before hand he would need to know the actual birth dates to have one target.
Mostly, I accept it because it's the only clue JKR gives us in the books as to when the Potters went into hiding. And we have no clue whatsoever that the Longbottoms ever DID go into hiding. IF Albus would hide the Potters just because they were preggers then the same should hold for the Longbottoms - at least until Snape tells Albus the real target.
We know nothing about what the Longbottoms were doing one way or the other before the Lestranges attacked them. Yes, I always (ie from before DH, obviously not before OOTP) assumed they had been hiding (or at least Alice and Neville were) because that's what I would have done in Dumbledore's place. We do know Alice was not in active duty when they were attacked (while Augusta says they were both Aurors in the trial Crouch refers to them as an Auror and his wife). But we do not know when she dropped out. Frank couldn't hide effectively because he had a job to go to, but their home could have been protected the way the Blacks had protected theirs.
So - back to the meeting on the Hill. For your timeline, Albus already has the Potters in hiding and yet he's stringing Snape along. Could fit - as I said previously - it's one or the other.
Well, he could have been making a decision to add more protections to the Potters, or to think of more protections to add eventually, while deciding security for the Longbottoms can be downgraded. Yes, stringing Severus along is definitely in Dumbledore's character. He doesn't want Severus to be relieved that Lily is already protected he wants to extract promises to do more for the cause from him.
No, Fudge was definitely not in Magical Law Enforcement. He was 'Junior Minister in the Department of Magical Catastrophes', according to himself. He was on the scene where Sirius was arrested because of the Muggle deaths and witnesses, his job was to get evidence from Muggles, Obliviate them and cover up the damage as an explosion of a gas pipe. So he had no involvement whatsoever in the war itself, the interrogation of suspects etc. I doubt he was present when Severus was interrogated, cleared or when Karkaroff tried to hand him in again.
why wait?
Maybe Snape was not yet a Death Eater when he overheard the prophecy, he was just being nosy. Shortly before the hilltop scene with Dumbledore, he joined up, whether willingly or through coercion, and relayed this piece of information to his new boss ... was horrified at Voldemort's interpretation of it and scarpered off to Dumbledore to undo what he'd just done.
If he wasn't yet a DE, it might even be possible that he offered the prophecy to Voldemort in exchange for sparing Lily. Getting that promise might even *be* the reason he joined.
The first problem with this is that it doesn't match Dumbledore's account in HBP: "He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard..."
Any ideas for a work-around? Dumbledore is rather sparing with the truth at the best of times and extremely skilled at misdirection ...
BTW, another point. I don't believe "Snape offered Voldemort Harry in exchange for Lily" is a viable reading *at all*. It's too silly. And I interpret Snape's moment of silence as being so completely flabbergasted by Dumbledore's unlikely accusation that he's wondering if he heard right. (Or just doesn't know how to respond; it's such a very "When did you stop beating your wife?" sort of comment.) But what particularly disturbs me in that scene is that Dumbledore asks not "What will you give in return?" but "What will you give ME...?"
Re: why wait?
duj
Re: why wait?
Any ideas for a work-around? Dumbledore is rather sparing with the truth at the best of times and extremely skilled at misdirection ...
This is mere brainstorming, but Dumbledore's words leave open the possibility that Severus wasn't a DE, but rather in a job where Voldemort was his employer in the usual sense, directly or indirectly. For example, Severus might have been working for the Malfoys as an apothecary, and the Malfoys could have had him brewing some potions for DE work, even though Severus wasn't a DE at the time in this scenario.
Also, "his master" and "Voldemort" do not *have* to be the same person. If he had been working for Voldemort only indirectly, he might have told his direct employer, who might have been the one to actually tell Voldemort.
Re: your second point, I agree that Severus was probably just flabbergasted.
Lynn
Re: why wait?
I suppose you could get around it since the prophecy takes place roughly 6 months later - it would still be the same year.
By the way, I once had a theory that Snape reported the prophecy specifically because he was trying to protect Lily. Doesn't seem to have panned out, but still might be usable for fanfic. That Voldy already knew that Snape cared too much for Lily and was holding her safety over Snape's head (much like what happens with Draco), especially since he was sending Snape to spy on Albus and would want something to ensure his loyalty didn't waver.
IF this had been the case then the irony would have been just horrific - that by trying to save Lily, he had instead doomed her family. --Hwyla
Re: why wait?
Severus says "... I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned..." Since I doubt he failed to make reports to Voldemort before Godric's Hollow I can't take this number seriously. He could only be referring to the time from shortly before Godric's Hollow, regardless of when he actually started spying.
Re: why wait?
He states 16 years before Voldy RETURNED, when it would have been just as easy to say that Voldy has been happy with the 16 years of info I have given him.
'Returned' points to June-ish'79 (16 yrs before June'95) - - the other to July-ish'80 (16 yrs before July'96 and the visit to SpinnersEnd).
Neither points to Sept'81 -- Hwyla
Re: why wait?
Re: why wait?
Re: why wait?
Is there a problem with another person, such as Lucius, knowing of the prophecy? I can't remember.
Lynn
Re: why wait?
JKR is probably muddling up her dates in that interview. Why would they go into hiding (vs. taking Lily out of action) just because Lily became pregnant? The prophecy hadn't even been made when Lily got pregnant (ca. November 1979), never mind that it seems they didn't know about it, possibly right til the end (Dumbledore may never have told them what the specifics of the danger were). I think there was probably a scale of security, increasing up til near the end when they used the Fidelius as a last resort, but I don't see that anyone would have a reason to think Lily's child might be special right off and therefore necessitating them going into hiding.
I had written a bit more on that (messy, I erased it) which made me think of something else. Why should Severus think that Dumbledore needs to be warned in this fashion? He knows very well that Dumbledore knows the prophecy, at least as much as Severus himself knows. Does he think that it hasn't even occurred to Dumbledore that the Potters might be a target? Why wouldn't it? Dumbledore's in as good a, if not a better, position than Severus to know Harry's birthdate and whether the Potters had done anything that could constitute defying Voldemort three times. Why does he say he comes with a warning, as though he expects Dumbledore not to be aware of any of this, rather than speaking like "okay, you know that shit that's gonna hit the fan? I've come to beg for your help..."
Maybe because they decided a pregnant woman shouldn't be risking curses to herself and future child? James may have still been active in whatever the Order did, but Lily may have been in hiding. Tonks appears to have moved in with her parents once she realized she was pregnant. Of course the entire Order wasn't doing much between the wedding and the Hogwarts battle in any case.
As for why Voldemort waited - consider why would he talk to Severus of his plan? My current thinking is that the plan to kill Harry was part of a multistep plan to take over Wizarding Britain in short sequence. Voldemort was going to use the momentum created by Harry's death to bring down Dumbledore (who certainly knew Harry or Neville were his best hope) and possibly the Ministry as well. And to get at Dumbledore he needed the DADA job, which gave him a one year window. So all pieces had to be there before making the move.
My current thinking is that Voldemort told Severus of the plan to attack the Potters because he thought Severus could provide him with useful information - Severus was in their year, he knew who their friends had been, Voldemort could get ideas who among them is the most likely to be corruptible. Severus would have told him - Black was rash and capable of risking a friend's life to kill an enemy, Lupin and Pettigrew were sycophantic hangers-on who may have developed resentment for Potter. And that would have been the background for Severus' request. (Making asking for James, with or without the inclusion of Lily tactically impossible in any case.)
With Severus' information Voldemort decides to recruit Peter (with or without an intermediary? If there was one he was probably in Azkaban shortly after Godric's Hollow). Since this was after Severus' request my timeline places Peter's recruitment a few months later than what Sirius implies but I don't see how Sirius could have known the exact time of Peter's recruitment so I take his words as a bit of hyperbole. (He also claims Voldemort was in hiding for 15 years. Shrug) OTOH this means Dumbledore knew Voldemort was seeking a spy from among James' friends from the beginning, no need to wait for signs the DEs were after the Potters. But as I argued elsewhere in any case Voldemort wasn't going to act yet, at most he had DEs watching out for the Potters and following them.
Voldemort's next step was to start using Peter to destabilize the Marauders. He did so by making Remus appear to be suspicious. We see in the Order photograph that Remus isn't with the Potters but at the front of the photograph. Peter also brought information that enabled the attacks on many Order members such as the McKinnons. I bet Voldemort got a copy of the photo.
Meanwhile Voldemort sent Severus to apply for the DADA job. Voldemort's plan was to have Severus either kill Dumbledore or drive him out of Hogwarts after Harry's death. And perhaps also have Barty kill his father to weaken the Ministry at the same time. So in any case Voldemort wasn't going to attack the Potters before September 1981, and he wasn't even going to send Severus to apply for the job before securing a path to the Potters. IMO it is entirely possible Voldemort decided Harry was the baby to attack well back in the summer of 1980 but he spent some time thinking how to access the family until he realized Severus might know and decided it was safe to ask him because he knew of the prophecy already.
Severus' job application alerted Dumbledore that the time of the attack was near and he suggested the use of Fidelius Charm with him as Secret Keeper. The Potters rejected the offer. Once Peter learned of it he told Voldemort who decided Peter should become Secret Keeper and the attack should be held back until this happened. By late October Dumbledore gave up on convincing the Potters and taught them how to cast the Fidelius Charm, which they did with Peter as Secret Keeper.
SNAPE: Lily's in danger! You must protect her!
DD: Actually the prophecy was about her baby.
SNAPE: But, but, Lily! She could get hurt!
DD: Lily this, Lily that. You don't give a damn about her husband and child, do you.
SNAPE: Uhh....
DD: Watch my moral outrage add six inches to my height.
SNAPE: Well okay then. Please protect them all.
DD: Right, let's talk compensation. I don't do favors to DE scum for nothing, you know.
Such a reading would be superficially plausible, roughly consistent, and make sense (of a rather negative kind) at least as far as Snape's concerned. Morally stunted DE is morally stunted.
But in fact, Dumbledore's phrase "asked mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son" insinuates something more than not caring if James and Harry died. It implies that Snape might have some influence over who Voldemort would target, and chose to exercise it only on Lily's behalf, when he could have done more. Which, as you pointed out in Part II, is complete nonsense.
I think it quite possible to read the scene differently, especially once you realize that Dumbledore's dig about exchanging the son for the mother is both disingenuous and specious. It is, in fact, designed to manipulate Severus - already an emotional wreck and neither fully rational nor fully coherent - into an even less powerful and more pliant position, where he is less likely to resist Dumbledore's taking advantage of his distress to gain himself a spy.
Ding ding DING! Dumbledore must know his ultra-disparaging spin on Snape's motives is absurd. Snape couldn't possibly bargain with Voldemort the way Dumbledore implies. The only logical conclusion is that Dumbledore has an ulterior motive, as ever. No doubt taking the moral high ground to dizzying heights is a nice egoboo, but his real aim isn't to establish Snape's depravity, it's to give his victim one body blow after another. He'd accuse Snape of killing JFK if he thought it'd serve his purpose. It's all leading up to that crucial moment when he asks, "And what will you give me in return, Severus?" To get his hooks into Voldemort's lieutenant is the prize he's been angling for all along.
Ironically, it's because Snape has some sort of embryonic conscience that Dumbledore can manipulate him this easily. A truly unscrupulous person would be all about Lily, no apologies. He'd flat out reject the idea that not caring about James and Harry would make him 'disgusting'.
-L
Yes - but
I hope that sentence made some sense? My point is, it is Dumbledore, in insisting the boy is a monster for not asking to spare Harry and James, who is really acting monstrous. Most normal people - and I think Severus is pretty normal, however messed up and poorly socialized - would understand instantly that a request to protect a young mother of an infant automatically extends to a request to protect her child, and possibly her husband as well. A family is a unit, after all, in most normal eyes. It is Dumbledore, the cruel master manipulator, who doesn't understand this.
What I always took from this conversation was that it was tremendously cruel of Dumbledore - needlessly so - and also a conscious turning point for young Severus. The one good thing Dumbledore did here was to get him to put his unconscious assumption into words. Severus instantly asked to protect his enemy, and never looked back.
What I don't get is why people think this shows the boy to be more evil than others in the Potterverse! He still seems to me to be the only person who truly risks something for an enemy, and he does so in the face of condemnation.
My two cents! Great essay, btw.
Re: Yes - but
Did you see the list at the end of people who risk themselves for their enemies? Even being extremely generous, the list is short and half of it is Death Eaters! The only Order members are Harry the Chosen One, Remus (in a negative way, since he protected Sirius when he thought Sirius was the traitor), and Severus himself. So much for Christian love.
Oh, far too true. This is one of the things that most disgusts me about Dumbledore (and JKR's portrayal of him as "inherently good"): his willingness to use Severus' honor and moral sense (however rudimentary at first) as a means to manipulate him for Dumbledore's benefit. And this is not the only time - we see it again after Lily's death, we see it when he talks Severus into committing what he sees as murder (think about Severus' objection there for a moment - he's willing to DIE rather than commit 'assisted suicide,' that's how strong a grip his conscience has on him), and so on. Dumbledore takes advantage of his conscience and his sense of guilt unashamedly, and keeps Severus in a state of guilty disempowerment for years in order to use him "for the greater good." Ignoring the fact that "the greater good" is made up of individuals, like Severus.
I doubt Dumbledore has ever heard of Kant or the categorical imperative, wouldn't you say?
-L
And I think Severus is right to suppose this. I don't think it's reasonable to think that if Severus had not agreed, Dumbledore would have done nothing to protect the Potter family. Dumbledore seems to be seeing an opportunity to gain an advantage here, and he takes it: he sees that he can probably emotionally manipulate Severus to squeeze even more out of this encounter, and does so.
So Albus' old interest in the Hallows plays a large part in Lily's death. Yet right afterwards, he's telling Snape that the put their trust in the wrong person (implying the Fidelius) and then twisting Snape's remorse until he promises to protect Harry.
I wonder now, was it Albus' obsession with the Hallows or did he need to ensure that Harry got 'marked'? -- Hwyla