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sandoz_iscariot (sandoz_iscariot) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-09 19:54:00

Spider-Man Blue: Breakfast in Bed
Another scene from Spider-Man: Blue. In which Mary Jane and Gwen battle to give Peter some TLC.

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jaybee3
2009-09-10 12:29 am UTC (link)

I know this is a bit out of continuity (no?) but doesn't it just exhibit the big hole in Queseda's idea that Peter must be a loser for the reader to identify with him? Short of totally ret-conning his romantic history, Peter has had two gorgeous women (whom many other men are jealous of him for) been in love with him. HIM being Peter Parker, Queseda's shlub, not Spider-Man. Peter already has lived a fantasy love life Marvel's (male) readers will never have. Destroying Peter/MJ's relationship and making their marriage literally vanish will not white wash that away.

And another thing I've always like about Gwen/Mary Jane is that we're really not supposed to root for one or the other (as it usually is with romantic rivals) they're both been presented as fun to be with and great girlfriends/wives (I still pretend "Sins of the Past" never happened).

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sandoz_iscariot
2009-09-10 12:41 am UTC (link)

Spider-Man: Blue isn't in continuity.

I agree, the "Peter Parker is a loveable loser who could never realistically be married to a supermodel" reasoning doesn't hold much water when nearly every woman who's known Peter (Betty Brant, Liz Allen, Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson, Felicia Hardy, Deb Whitman, Jessica Jones, Michelle Gonzales) has been romantically interested in him at one point and are all beautiful enough to be models.

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	arilou_skiff 2009-09-10 06:12 am UTC (link)
	I don't think Deb (and to a certain extent Betty) were ever considered to be that particularly beautiful in-story. (The art is another matter, but then that's comic-book art for ya) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

sandoz_iscariot
2009-09-10 06:19 am UTC (link)

The art is another matter, but then that's comic-book art for ya

That still fits in with my point. Even if they weren't all seen as being in the same "league" as say, Black Cat, all of his love interests have been conventionally thin and beautiful and attractive and successful. Then it's kinda like "Buh?" when Quesada or whoever says Peter is too much of an average joe to believably have a relationship with someone who looks like Mary Jane. (I mean, even animated Spectacular Spider-Man Gwen got a makeover and lost her glasses.)

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arilou_skiff
2009-09-10 09:39 am UTC (link)

Hmmm, I think that holds true for everyone but Deb, actually, who seemed to be something of a wreck in a lot of ways. But yes, you are right in that regard.

But as mentioned, part of the issue is that there are no non-beautiful women in comics. (and if they are they are actually monstrous) it seems that there is no middle-ground. (Although I suspect Generic Cuteness plays a part)

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	sandoz_iscariot 2009-09-10 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'm all for more varied-looking women in comics. Though that probably won't happen anytime soon. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Hmm..

steverodgers5
2009-09-10 01:06 am UTC (link)

Has Queseda actually said that Peter's a loser?

I know he goes on and on about Pete 'having the bad luck of the common guy,' but I wouldn't necessarily equate someone not being married to a super model/actress, as them automatically being 'a loser'..

(Although I have always found it weirdly ironic that the word 'loser' is so close to 'lose her')

But yeah, Sin's Past not happening..I'm with you on that all the way..
(In fact, I'd actually say that that one was the worst idea JQ ever had concerning Spiderman. If you're a long time reader it's the comic book equivalent of seeing the Star Wars Holiday special..i.e once You've seen the Norman-Gwen hookup, it sadly can't ever be unseen. Norman's 'o' face is the stuff true nightmares are made of!!)

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Re: Hmm..

jaybee3
2009-09-10 01:17 am UTC (link)

I don't know if he said exactly the word "loser" but that's how I always saw the gist of it. And it can't really apply to Peter. For goodness sake an upcoming issue has him dating Ms. Marvel! Queseda says the marriage and relationship to MJ makes him unrelatable to the young audience - but him being with one gorgeous girl after another doesn't?

As for Sins of the Past I skipped those pages (any and all scenes of Norman/Gwen together) so I was spared that - but I think it ranks even above One More Day as the worst Spidey story ever told (above clone Uncle Ben too). The levels of character assassination and ret-conned history made necessary for characters (adult clone children of Gwen) that are long gone was ridiculous. And the worst part was that JMS wanted the kids to be Peter's. He wanted Gwen to have had sex with Peter and had his kids. Which actually would have made sense! But once again, Queseda said having "grown" kids would age Peter and ordered it to be Osborn and thus a stupid storyline was born. As far as I'm concerned it never happened, and even though Queseda hasn't disowned it still, I notice almost no writers since have even mentioned it - even with Osborn basically running America.

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	Re: Hmm.. sandoz_iscariot 2009-09-10 01:42 am UTC (link)
	I'm pretty sure Quesada has used the L word, if only because I remember the fallout here. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Hmm.. jlroberson 2009-09-10 01:47 am UTC (link)
	Men can date, be handsome and smart and witty, have gorgeous women love them, and still be losers anyway. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Hmm.. blaketiger 2009-09-10 01:52 am UTC (link)
	But they can't EVER get married. >=( (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Hmm.. jlroberson 2009-09-10 02:56 am UTC (link)
	They can do that too, and then not be. (Reply to this) (Parent)

He's really the last person who should ever be thought of that way..

steverodgers5
2009-09-10 05:50 pm UTC (link)

Motto on the Sin Past debacle, so let's treat it the way it deserves, and mention it no more.!

As for the whole loser thing then. That really makes me laugh as even overlooking the girls attention..(Though like Invincible said is it really that unbelievable that a good looking, smart, fit guy would have trouble getting female attention?)I would nonetheless say that given Spidey has fought more villains than probably any other hero in the Marvel universe and survived, that would make him something of a 'winner.'

Seriously, I remember an idea that was floating about a few years back, where it was considered that there could be a story where some all powerful character (think it was suggested to be Thanos..)was going to confront spidey with the idea that his Spider-Sense was allowing him to 'cheat' fate. And that death wasn't too happy about that. And thus was seeking some kind of 'Final Destination' type payback by retaliating on his friends. (Would explain Gwen..)I'm not sure I'd like to see this explored in the regular title but I do think it'd make a great What If story.
Not to mention that with Spidey's virtually unparralled legion of dangerous super villains, I think he must be very lucky to have not had anything fatal happen to MJ during their time together. Realistically speaking if anyone was going to have the same kind of touch of death as Kyle Raynor's had with girls, it should be Spidey.

So I would say he's been very, very lucky over the years. Whether that is unrealistic or not depends on your point of view I guess..

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	Re: Hmm.. liliaeth 2009-09-10 03:00 am UTC (link)
	Oh he's definitely used the word loser. If he didn't make me so sick, with every word he said, I'd go through his cup of Joe posts and get you the post where he responded to one of my questions with just that word. (Reply to this) (Parent)

psychop_rex
2009-09-11 02:46 am UTC (link)

The way I figure it, Peter is not a loser - he's simply not a winner. And by this I do not mean he never wins - the fact that he's survived in his superheroic career this long indicates that he has - I mean that he isn't really winning in life, as it were. That's not because of any defect in his personal character, it's simply a result of 'that old Parker luck'. He's someone who COULD be a winner - he's good-looking, he's highly intelligent, he's easy to get along with, he's even had a book published - but fate keeps tripping him up.

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	Well, when you put it like that... steverodgers5 2009-09-11 06:42 pm UTC (link)
	but fate keeps tripping him up. Heck, maybe fate IS trying to balance the scales for him cheating it with his Spider Sense..LOL! (That would be one way to really pile on the Parker guilt complex, if all his, and his family and friends troubles, really were his fault. That certinly would be a sure fire way to creat an alternate 'Spiderman No More' tale..) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Well, when you put it like that...

psychop_rex
2009-09-11 09:10 pm UTC (link)

But it was fate that GAVE him the Spider Sense in the first place, right? If fate controls everything, then it was fate that put that eensy-weensy spider there in the first place, fate that charged it with radioactive energy, fate that had it chomp our boy Petey, and fate that made that bite result in spider-powers, instead of a horrible death from radioactive poisoning. So if fate IS punishing him for using his Spider Sense, then fate's being a bit of a pill about things, is all i can say.

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	ashtoreth 2009-09-10 01:05 am UTC (link)
	"your very own Mary Jane Watson"? That's some strong language there. Why did he ever start dating Gwen? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Well.. steverodgers5 2009-09-10 01:11 am UTC (link)
	Gentlemen prefer Blondes.. ;) Apparantly.. Personally, I'm more partial to Brunettes, but I think Gwen was supposed to be exceptionally beautiful, and thus would stand out from the crowd in the way that some blonde gals so effortlessly do.. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	xlineartx 2009-09-10 02:41 am UTC (link)
	A mutual love of science! That nobody ever remembers. Also, MJ was dating Harry at the time, I think? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kenn_el 2009-09-10 04:23 am UTC (link)
	MJ WAS seeing Harry in the regular books, IIRC. Nothing seemed all that serious about their romance, though, when I was reading them. I've said it before: Gwen and MJ were very much Veronica and Betty to Peter's Archie (with a little Harry and Flash being Jughead and Reggie thrown in). (Reply to this) (Parent)

	I dunno.. steverodgers5 2009-09-10 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	I remember lots of forlorn furtive glances across test tubes and bunson burners..But that's probably just me..LOL! Yeah I think MJ was sorta with Harry at the time, but she never could seem to make her mind up there.. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	blaketiger 2009-09-10 01:47 am UTC (link)
	I'm not really sure what Gwen's thinking here. MJ's pretty clear- I will show up and be all sexy and nurturing and helpful. Gwen, on the other hand- "I will associate myself with your dead uncle! That will make you want to date me!" I mean, Gwen's being thoughtful and all, but it doesn't seem likely to lead to a romantic interest. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-10 02:04 am UTC (link)
	Gwen's bonding! This might lead to intimate talks about the dead people they love in life, his uncle, her mother. Isn't it odd though, the way MJ starts selling herself as a wife. (Reply to this) (Parent)

liliaeth
2009-09-10 03:04 am UTC (link)

Honestly, I've never understood what's supposed to be so great about Gwen. She was a boarding cardboard cliché that got turned into a saint after her death.

I still say that the only reason she's not classified under the easily forgettable girlfriends of the past, is because she died. If her death wasn't so iconic, only continuity lovers would even remember her name.

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	domino_blue 2009-09-10 03:38 am UTC (link)
	in a way yes in way no. While I do like MJ a bit more then MJ Gwen did have some personality to her and she did have her moments, plus at the time she really did feel like the one for peter, the issue where she came back from England was a huge boost for Spidey because it felt like he was getting his life together. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	crinosg 2009-09-10 02:01 am UTC (link)
	Man, I would not want to be the Vulture right now. Spidey: "I was THIS close to a three way. THIS. FUCKING. CLOSE." Vulture: "OH MY GOD MY BONES! HE ACTUALLY PUNCHED ALL MY BONES TO POWDER! HOW IS THAT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE!?!" (Reply to this) (Thread)

	blaketiger 2009-09-10 02:10 am UTC (link)
	I was this close to a THREESOME. I was this close to a sexual encounter involving three people. And that's terrible. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	toby_wan_kenobi 2009-09-10 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	I was this close to a THREESOME, and now all I have is PIES. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	LOL! steverodgers5 2009-09-10 05:25 pm UTC (link)
	Man someone should have done a parody of this, because that's bloody hilarious!.. (Even more so with it being the crotchty old man that the Vulture is..) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	philippos42 2009-09-10 07:25 am UTC (link)
	Wait, MJ in a cross? What? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-09-11 02:39 am UTC (link)
	Probably just a fashion thing. I knew someone once who was not a Christian in any way, but she wore a gold cross necklace just 'cause she liked the look. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	stig 2009-09-10 07:47 am UTC (link)
	Tim Sale's art is probably the only redeeming factor of Loeb's work, especially the 'Tee-Hee' sexual situation displayed here. It's like a bad porn movie. On a lighter note, it looks like the Vulture simply swooped by on his way to school to wave at Peter with his satchel. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Yeah, Gwen and MJ look particularly gorgous here.. steverodgers5 2009-09-10 05:23 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, Loebs work always goes down better when dressed up in Tim Sale's artwork..(Though having said that, for some reason the Hulk Grey series has never particularly appealed to me..Not quite sure why..) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	greenmask 2009-09-10 11:46 am UTC (link)
	Well. I like MJ's dress this time. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sandoz_iscariot 2009-09-10 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	I don't know what to think about the zebra print and hot pink fur coat. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	greenmask 2009-09-10 06:42 pm UTC (link)
	Wooooah I did not notice that first time around. Ick. Maybe she just came from a hen night? :/ (Reply to this) (Parent)