InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "cheeeeeese"

sherkahn (sherkahn) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-09-02 14:08:00

Current mood:	anxious
Current music:	Blondie: Rapture
Entry tags:	char: kaine, char: scarlet spider/ben reilly, char: spider-man/peter parker

Spiderman: the return of ...
...Kaine.

CBR has a teaser image as one of the most interesting characters to develop from the Spiderman clone saga returns.

Warning, big-time spoilers behind the cut.

Here is the image that is popping up in lots of places and over at the latest comic book convetions.

THIS ONE, you won't believe, Clark. It cost me a fortune and took decades, but luckily I had... wait, what are we talking about?
Oh yeah. I know those 90's haircut styles/bullets needed to go, but DAMN, Jackal, it wasn't THAT bad.

As if OMD wasn't enough, they go and change this.
How will fans react to it?

How will the Magic Kingdom react to backlash?
Will Disney allow beloved fan-favorite characters to stay dead?

(Post a new comment)

	stratosfyr 2009-09-02 09:47 pm UTC (link)
	The question is, is this part of the Clone Saga as-it-was-meant-to-be retelling, or regular continuity? Either way I frickin' love Kaine. I don't care what you think. I don't care. (Reply to this)

	taggerung301 2009-09-02 10:37 pm UTC (link)
	a while back I remember someone saying that maybe it was Ben Reilly who made the deal with Mephisto or something along those lines (can't remember 100% what they said, but it sounded pretty plausable and like an excellent plot idea) with Kaine's random reappearance, maybe this theory has some real credibility (Reply to this)

	xdoop 2009-09-02 10:49 pm UTC (link)
	So what's happening in the second page? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sherkahn 2009-09-02 11:17 pm UTC (link)
	Looks like a ret-con or re-imagining of the death of Ben Reilly at the hands of the Jackal instead of Norman Osborn. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-09-03 01:07 am UTC (link)
	YES, BECAUSE IF THERE'S ONE THING THAT SPIDER-MAN HASN'T HAD ENOUGH OF IN THE PAST 15 YEARS, FROM THE CLONE SAGA THROUGH THE BYRNE REBOOT AND THE SPIDER-TOTEMS TO SINS PAST AND ONE MORE DAY, IT'S RETCONS!!! Quite seriously, since 1994, Spider-Man's stories have consisted of almost literally NOTHING BUT retcons. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 02:23 am UTC (link)
	I'd rather a retcon than the usual 'it didn't happen' nonsense. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-09-03 07:47 am UTC (link)
	"It didn't happen" IS a retcon. That's what a retcon MEANS. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 10:15 pm UTC (link)
	So? 'It DID happen, just without all the stupid shit' is a better retcon than 'didn't happen, destroy vast swathes of your emotionally invested memories of the character'. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

box_in_the_box
2009-09-03 10:39 pm UTC (link)

At this point, I think we're arguing over which is a better-tasting flavor of shit sandwich, because while there may arguably be one or two NECESSARY retcons in Spidey's future - such as the one that undoes OMD - there simply cannot be any such thing as a GOOD retcon for him anymore, no matter HOW good it might be, because the characters has already had TOO MANY retcons. Even HAWKMAN has literally had less retcons than Spider-Man, and Hawkman had enough retcons to render him UNUSABLE for a DECADE.

Even when OMD is retconned - as it SHOULD be - it's STILL going to suck, simply by virtue of being yet another retcon, when the character has had so many already that they've become toxic.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 11:00 pm UTC (link)
	I'd love to disagree, but I can't. As Wacker pointed out, you can recap a confusing and annoying event in an understandable and even entertaining fashion, ie. Clone Saga. Unfortunately, this just makes all the other clumsiness more noticeable. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

sherkahn
2009-09-03 11:16 pm UTC (link)

The only way a Ret-con may work is if they use that Dr. Strange magic that Peter used to be at multiple places at one time as he sought help from everyone to revive Aunt May (just before during OMD). One of those Parker selves stayed behind, sensing something and acting as an "anchor" of sorts as some mystic crisis begins to affect the current life of Peter Parker.

Well, that's how I would write it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

box_in_the_box
2009-09-02 10:50 pm UTC (link)

Ever since the start of the reboot, Quesada, Brevoort and Wacker have all been dropping HUGE hints about how much they'd love to bring Ben Reilly back.

Which makes absolutely no fucking sense, because the entire point of creating Ben Reilly was that it gave Marvel the single Spider-Man they so desperately wanted.

At this rate, it makes about as much sense to incorporate Ultimate Peter Parker into 616 Marvel continuity, too, because with both Ben Reilly and Ultimate Peter, the whole hook of "they're Spider-Man, but single" no longer distinguishes them from the "real" Spider-Man any longer.

I would still find it amusing if they did so, though, simply because both Ben Reilly and Ultimate Peter are about a million times more competent and likable than the post-OMD douchebag that the "real" Peter has become.

Hell, THERE'S an irony for you - in an effort to make Spider-Man "young" and single, Marvel actually gave Ben Reilly a backstory that made him a thousand times less socially awkward and more emotionally mature than just about ANY incarnation of Peter has been, barring JMS or Spider-Girl.

(Reply to this)

box_in_the_box
2009-09-02 10:54 pm UTC (link)

And if ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ELSE EVER retained their memories of Peter Parker's secret identity (except for Mary Jane, WHOOPS), then WHO THE FUCK DOES KAINE EVEN THINK HE IS???

I mean, seriously, between THAT and the fact that the only reason that Peter came back to New York in the first place, after giving the mantle of Spider-Man to Ben, was because of HIS WIFE'S PREGNANCY (which now no longer happened), then how do you even reconcile the EXISTENCE of the "Clone Saga" with the current Hawkman-level shithole that is Spider-Man's continuity?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	abbadie 2009-09-02 11:52 pm UTC (link)
	I don't wanna even attempt to imagine how Peter could even remember the whole mess, but damn it, I hate it, but I call it all the same: Kaine is Mephisto. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2009-09-03 12:56 am UTC (link)
	"And if ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ELSE EVER retained their memories of Peter Parker's secret identity...then WHO THE FUCK DOES KAINE EVEN THINK HE IS???" That sounds like it could be a pretty good story to me, actually. Either Kaine doesn't know who he is, or he's a complete liability to Peter because he does know. Either way, it'd be interesting. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ashtoreth
2009-09-03 02:28 am UTC (link)

Actually, what drove Kaine murderously insane were his memories of being Spiderman (and the pain, creator rejection, and deformity). Having nobody else's memories...not knowing what schlub student Professor Jackal stole the DNA from...not knowing where his urge to nobility came from...would make Kaine feel more like a person.

But if he did know, I don't see how that would change anything, since he always knew. Unless he remembers the unmasking. That would seem wierd to him.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	felinephoenix 2009-09-03 07:28 am UTC (link)
	Well, Kaine did think Peter was the clone for a long time, didn't he? I'm not sure if that changes much in the end, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)

box_in_the_box
2009-09-03 07:53 am UTC (link)

You're all assuming that Marvel is even going to acknowledge the discrepancy in the first place.

We're now nearly two years into the current status quo, and IT STILL HASN'T EVEN BEEN REVEALED HOW WE GOT TO THIS STATUS QUO IN THE FIRST PLACE (ie. what happened on Peter and Mary Jane's wedding day, why did Peter and Mary Jane break up, and how did everyone's memories of Peter's secret identity get erased?).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 10:24 pm UTC (link)
	Mephisto made a clone universe? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	felinephoenix 2009-09-03 10:53 pm UTC (link)
	To be fair, who doesn't want a universe full of Peter Parkers? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sherkahn 2009-09-03 11:11 pm UTC (link)
	Urh....J. Jonah Jameson? Is this a trick question? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	felinephoenix 2009-09-04 02:33 am UTC (link)
	Oh, no. Deep in his heart, even Jonah wants Parkerverse. Because everyone is gay for Spider-Man, didn't you know? (Yes, it is a trick question.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	psychop_rex 2009-09-03 10:27 am UTC (link)
	Perhaps, since clones of Peter basically ARE him, at least on a genetic level, they're immune from Mephisto's meddlings? It'd make for an interesting loophole to exploit. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

box_in_the_box
2009-09-03 10:35 am UTC (link)

Again, I'd feel a lot better about it if I even trusted Marvel enough to expect that they see the NEED to establish that such a loophole is in effect. As it stands, I expect that this will be like Mary Jane's pregnancy, in that it's a retcon that can't even CALL itself a retcon, due to piss-poor prior planning - "Oh, yeah, we did say 'Nothing changed except for their marriage,' didn't we? Oh, well, just ignore that MJ was ever pregnant, too, but no, we won't be addressing the consequences of this in any way on the page."

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-09-03 11:14 am UTC (link)
	Well, it was pretty much an explanation for US, not for them - I don't particularly expect them to come up with a good reason, either, but since we keep talking about this stuff regardless... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	box_in_the_box 2009-09-03 11:20 am UTC (link)
	Yes, if only we would stop pointing out the flaws in their storytelling ... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-09-03 11:52 am UTC (link)
	Well, precisely - we point them out, and we're largely ignored; therefore, the stuff that we come up with is more for OUR benefit than theirs, is what I'm saying. It COULD be for their benefit, but since they're not listening... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mullon 2009-09-03 01:14 am UTC (link)
	I'd rather just have him in a regular Spidergirl title again. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 02:31 am UTC (link)
	He's still in Spidergirl. He seems to be leading a new batch of captured villains and keeping close company to both Normie Osborn and Darkdevil. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	felinephoenix 2009-09-03 07:27 am UTC (link)
	And they're FINALLY doing something with the Darkdevil subplot. Maybe. Hopefully. ...well, Kaine and Reilly actually had a conversation about Ben, anyway. You know. After 10 YEARS. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	werehawk 2009-09-03 01:26 am UTC (link)
	Quesada said its not in continuity. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sherkahn 2009-09-03 02:05 am UTC (link)
	Actually the interview shows that even though the Clone Saga, Director's Cut will show what could have been, Kaine will return to Spidey's universe before the end of the year. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-09-03 02:30 am UTC (link)
	And they've done 'maybe continuity' before. If it works out, they might prefer the retcon to the clone saga is so fucked up and hateful to fans to remember. (Reply to this) (Parent)

felinephoenix
2009-09-03 07:23 am UTC (link)

Huh. At least they're scrapping that terrible 90s-tastic costume of Kaine's. I always did prefer the trenchcoat look they gave him in Spider-Girl. (Though I will never understand why Kaine has gone completely gray while Peter only has streaks. Spidey doesn't strike me as a dye guy.)

...yeah, I'd rather talk about clones than the possibility of another retcon. I miss Kaine and Ben, but I missed Harry too, and look how that turned out.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ashtoreth
2009-09-03 10:22 pm UTC (link)

Well, I did like the possibilities of Kaine's life support suit. It bore a strong resemblance to the High Evolutionary's suit, which made sense since Jackal used to work with him. He might still be wearing it under his clothes though.

Re: Kaine's grey, I assumed that Kaine's degeneration basically meant he was in poorer health than Peter, that's why he looks so much older.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	felinephoenix 2009-09-03 10:52 pm UTC (link)
	I always assumed the metallic sort of thing MC2!Kaine is shown wearing sometimes was another life support suit -- good point about the HE, though. I hadn't thought of that. As for the grey, yeah, I figured it was something like that. It'd be nice to see it confirmed, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)