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Severus and the Snapes

The World of Severus Snape

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Severus and the Snapes

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What a horrid title! LOL But my question is about Snape and his father as well as that side of the family. Did Tobias work at the Mill? Was he physically abusive or only verbally? Or does fandom wrong him, assuming he was worse than he was? Also did Snape have someone like Aunt Marge who came to visit occasionally? Did he have to suffer Christmas crackers with his cousins? Or were they even outcasts in their own family, not invited to the family get togethers?

How did Snape get along with the Muggle side of the family?

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  • Tobias could have worked anywhere, in any sort of job.
    He was (sometimes) verbally abusive, but never physically violent.
    Snape has no cousins.
  • Severus and the Snapes

    We have so little information that anything we say is speculation. So here's mine, what I've used in my stories set in Severus's childhood.

    I don't think Tobias started as abusive, at least not in his own mind. I think Tobias thought it was his duty to "toughen his son up" to prepare him for the "real world." My (lower-class, ISTJ, not very bright) grampa did that with my (INFJ, brilliant, eventually lawyer) dad with lifelong effects on my dad's self-esteem and depressive tendencies. BUT--my grandma formally backed grampa (even though she privately often disagreed and sometimes softened dad's treatment), and my dad was always clear that grampa loved him--even while being loudly disappointed about dad's "softness".

    With the Snapes, whatever their early relationship was, I think differences of opinion over how to raise their son soured it badly. Eileen wanted to raise a wizard and valued academic intelligence, potential magical and creativity; Tobias wanted to raise a good working-class bloke and wanted him to be able to out-tough his fellows if need be and to be street-smart rather than a bookworm. Eileen expected Severus to be eccentric (more accurately, I doubt she knew what Muggle standards were); Tobias wanted him to conform. Plus I'm in the camp that holds Tobias did NOT know in advance that he was marrying a witch, and that he wasn't best pleased by the news: which may have come in the form of watching his little boy do something spooky and weird.

    And they fought, bitterly, and the boy knew they were fighting over him. The boy felt he had to choose sides, and ending by choosing his mother's unreservedly, and assuming that when he could go off to join the Wizarding World he'd finally fit in and have a place... especially after the only witch-child in town becomes his (probably first) friend. (Well, that assumption lasted almost 6 minutes on the Hogwarts Express, didn't it?)

    I can't see Severus with cousins (or siblings), at least none he played with or knew. His brand of social ineptness as a child suggests he hadn't really had friends or allies (and cousins who don't like you still usually side with you against outsiders). Specifically: if he had Muggle cousins he would have anticipated Lily's reaction to being called a "witch". If he had Wizard cousins he should have anticipated being attacked for expressing a preference for Slytherin. And if he had either, he should have expected Lily's reaction to his role in the rift with Petunia.
  • I agree that we have so little information that *everything* is specualtion, so here's mine too. And I don't necessarily believe that this is The Way it happened but is a story I've been considering.

    While Tobias could have worked anywhere, I usually see him as 'working class', so yes, the mill or a mine etc, would make sense to me. maybe not *that* mill, though.

    I see him as a fairly physical type of man, so also a physical husband and father, but I don't see him as physically abusive - more like he'd punch the wall than his wife or child. I don't really see him as abusive at all, but that's not to let him off the hook completely.

    I think he didn't know that Eileen was a witch until they were married, that his reaction was suprise or disbelief but not overly negative...at first.
    I think that Eileen was 'slumming' in a way, to date a muggle, being rebellious to, but still retaining her own anti-muggle prejudices. She fell pregnant, and married Tobias, being cut off from her family for the disgrace it brought them (even though they were - in my own imagination - already well past their prime as a respected pureblood family).
    At first, Tobias's parents would probably have visited, but less and less as tensions grew between all of them. I think Tobias was an only child, mostly because JK seems to make everyone have no family. The other Snapes wouldn't have felt welcomed into Eileen's home, and would rarely visit.

    I see the real problems arising in the Snape household when Tobias loses his job (my idea). He wouldn't understand why they can't use magic to solve their money troubles - since he doesn't know anything about the wizard world or its laws. He would begin to resent her for that, and Eileen would likewise resent that Tobias couldn't provide for her family. I imagine Tobias turns to drink and remains unemployed, both fuelling their arguments.

    Eileen would be ashamed of her muggle husband, and avoid the wizard world or at least avoid mentioning him there. Her prejudices against muggles would come out in their arguments, and Tobias would begin to feel defensive against wizards. When Eileen raises his own son as a wizard, he knows that she sees Severus as being better than his father because he isn't muggle, and he knows that she is teaching Severus that.

    Even if they remained loving at times, how could they not fight, especially when Tobias comes home drunk? Severus gets ignored completely as soon as an argument starts. Between that neglect, witnessing their fights, and their lack of money, Sev's childhood is pretty dismal, poor bloke. :(
    but that's all just my specualtion.
    • Early on after reading DH, I picked up signs of Severus being an adult child of dysfunctional parents (check the ACA list of personalities, it fits him about 85%), and got to thinking... So which parent of his caused it?

      The obvious answer is Tobias, whom wee see terrorizing Eileen and thus frightening/saddening young Severus. But was it really him? I mean, he could very well have been an alcoholic, or with some other problem that caused him to lash out at his wife and/or son... But somehow I couldn't mesh that idea with the idea of an Eileen still capable enough of magic to teach Severus the basics (which I kind of assumed was the case if anybody -- like Sirius -- got the impression that Severus knew Dark magic before he even came to school) yet not taking *any* measures to keep their child from being abused. Makes way, way more sense if it was *Eileen* that was psychotic, like if she had borderline personality disorder or some other PD that makes you cling to your One True Love, and Tobias was helplessly caught in her web of mental and magical manipulation. What we saw in Snape's memory could have been a result of Tobias having been subjected to a particularly nasty manipulation attempt (although I wouldn't say Love Potion, since I don't think Tobias would stay if he his very love towards Eileen had been raped out of him) and being *justly* angry to the point of threatening physical attack. I mean, why else would a Witch *cower* unless she somehow felt the Muggle's anger was justified? Unless Eileen's magic was as depleted as Merope's, there's nothing really to fear in the physical aspect of a Muggle man getting upset at her.
      • (Oops, sorry I meant to reply to the original post!)
        • (Anonymous)
          Sorry to come late to this thread. Hmm, your suggestion that Eileen had something wrong with her psychologically meshes with a pet theory I've been toying with.

          If the Potions book was Eileen's, then she may have been a first, or at most second year student when Tom Riddle was a fifth year and transformed from just another bully to Heir of Slytherin, controller of basilisk and future terrorizor of Wizarding Britain. Same age as Ginny was when she fell victim to the diary-preserved version of 16-year old Riddle. If Eileen too was an insecure girl she may have liked the attention of a popular prefect who knew how to appear so understanding. Once he had her trust he would have used her one way or the other (guinea pig for mind-control games? for memory-modification experiments?). And in contrast with Ginny, Eileen's troubles did not end after one year, nor did she have a supportive family to help her recover (because nobody knew what she went through). As a result the cross and sullen appearance in that photograph - she was a deeply traumatized girl. If so, it would make sense for her to marry a Muggle because she felt she needed that bit of magical advantage as a line of defence.

          I think she kept her magic secret. The memory scene is what happened when little Severus had an outburst of uncontrolled magic in front of his father and the truth came out. Eileen was cowering because she felt guilt over having kept that secret, and Severus is crying because the whole thing was 'his fault'.

          Once the truth was out Eileen did perform magic - enough to impress Severus with how special it was, though probably not in front of Tobias.

          Some questions:
          Who placed the ad in the Prophet announcing Eileen's marriage to a Muggle? Eileen? Her parents? Someone was unashamed enough of the marriage to announce it.

          Who was responsible for the huge book collection? Eileen and Tobias couldn't buy all those books. I doubt Severus bought them all (wouldn't he keep them at Hogwarts, where he spent most of his time?). Were they inherited from Eileen's parents? If so, when did they die? Also, who put the spells that allowed shelving books continuously on a door (no need to make room for the door to open)? Does this mean the house was magical for a long while? Did Eileen's parents die a few years after Severus was born and the Snapes moved into their magical house? Or was it only in Snape's adulthood that there was need to add those extra shelves on the door?)
  • What I'm going to write is certainly not what I would have wanted for Severus, or even what I fantasized about in my own older fic before DH. However, knowing what we know now and considering JKR's hateful and dismissive attitude towards all things Snape, I'll try to be realistic. My theory has its base in her ridiculing of 'ugly' people, her ridicule for all things Muggle and her affinity towards 'movie stereotypes'.

    1. Eileen was considered ugly. See Ron's reaction. None of the 'cool kids' in her year would have found her attractive.

    2. Eileen had some tactical skills and ambition. She was captain of the Gobstone team, took part in international tournaments (since Hogwarts is the only school in Britain) and was obviously successful enough with all this. However, it is made very clear that playing Gobstones isn't a 'cool' thing to do. The cool kids play Quidditch.

    3. Eileen met Tobias. Tobias is described by Severus as not really liking anyone. Very likely he was a rather dour 'uncool' young man. Maybe his behaviour comes from being insecure and unhappy, maybe he was just mean. For some reason, he and Eileen got together. Maybe they felt drawn to each other because they both were lonely, maybe they had an attack of romance, maybe they were drunk. Whatever it was, and my bet is on having been drunk (considering how JKR thinks about how the fate of children is determined by the circumstances of their conception), they had sex.

    4. Eileen got pregnant. This was 1959. If a girl was pregnant at that time, she had to marry, and the young man better marry her and make an honest woman out of her. Considering the manner of the wizarding world, that wouldn't have been much different. We never hear of any child out of wedlock, afaik, nor of any unwed mother. The parents we read about may be dead, or Death Eaters, or mad, or entangled through love potions, but they all are properly married.

    5. Severus is born. The family lives in a Muggle neighbourhood. Tobias isn't pleased by his wizarding relatives. The family doesn't have many social contacts. Tobias doesn't like anyone much.

    6. Either Tobias and Eileen have an agreement to live Muggle and never use magic (unlikely) or Tobias is a master at putting down other people and completely destroying their self-worth, possibly by emotional and financial blackmail. Why the latter and not the first? Severus knows about the magical world and about Slytherin. If there had been an agreement about leaving the wizarding world behind, then Severus wouldn't have known about Slytherin, Dementors, Azkaban and all the other wizarding things he told Lily. Now, Tobias may have forbidden Eileen to mention it, and she did it behind his back, but there certainly wasn't an agreement between them.

    7. Eileen's self-worth was very low. She is a witch and cowers before her husband who yells at her. It may have been a one-time occurrence, and hexing your husband, even if he is unreasonable, isn't a wise move. However, after DH I don't think the fight was an isolated occurrence.

    8. Severus had no siblings. He may have had Muggle and wizarding cousins, but the Snapes lived rather isolated because Tobias didn't like anyone much.

    9. Severus could have heard all the wizarding things from his cousins/relatives in the wizarding world, but his attitude is negative towards Muggles and all-embracing towards the wizarding world. I find it unlikely that this would have been the case if there had been an agreement between Eileen and Tobias. Severus wouldn't have had that much of a reason to loathe all things Muggle as he did if his parents had shown him the good sides of the Muggle world.

    10. The Snapes weren't rich. Severus looks shabby. Either they couldn't afford proper boys' clothes, or his father cared so little about him that he didn't mind what the boy was wearing. Eileen may have had the typical inability of wizards to dress 'the Muggle way'. This certainly added to Sev's isolation. If Petunia made fun of him, you bet that the boys in the neighbourhood were making fun of him and worse.

    No wonder he wears black now.
    • (Anonymous)
      Wow. So much word to all of this, but most especially points 3 and 4. Pre-DH I assumed the one who loved Snape was his mum, but as it turned out, both his parents were apparently neglectful and uncaring. I think you've nailed the reason why.

      My impression of Tobias' mentality is a working class Vernon. Very closed minded, appalled to find he's stuck with a freak wife and freak son. After the big reveal he'd want as little as possible to do with Severus. And Eileen would be resentful of her son because her unwanted pregnancy's the reason she's stuck with a hostile, bigoted Muggle husband, and any ambitions she may have had for her life have been blighted. The way Snape acts around Lily, anxious to never tread on her pretty princess toes, suggests to me that he's reenacting a pattern from home, where Eileen's affection was equally as conditional as Lily's. A boy who'd ever felt secure in someone's love would snap back once in a while.

      -L
      • A boy who'd ever felt secure in someone's love would snap back once in a while.
        Very good point!
    • The shotgun marriage is unlikely because Hermione makes a point to mention that Severus' birth announcement happened about a year after Eileen's marriage announcement. Now, of course she could have waited with the birth announcement or whatever, but if you are arguing what JKR meant to write in canon - well, there is clear cut canon against the shotgun wedding among the very little information about the Snape family.
      • Damn! It would have made sense. On the other hand, a bit of romance (and I'm rather certain they didn't marry for money) is of course nicer for all of them, they had at least that then.

        I'd love to take up mary_j's argument from below about the woman who can't count, but even JKR can't be that far off. If she deliberately has the marriage announced, and the birth announced a year later... then a shotgun wedding wasn't likely on her mind.

        We just don't know enough about them. There are many reasons why Tobias could have been as he was.

        Hmmm... we don't see one single memory about Sev's home life in the Prince's tale. Maybe he did value some of these memories and didn't want to part with them. ;)
        • A shotgun wedding is still a possibility. There's nothing to say Eileen wasn't pregnant when they married and miscarried, and then Snape was conceived later. *shrug*
    • actually a really great list. one i think hits probably really close to what jrk sees in him at least.
      No wonder he wears black now.
      *snerks* nice.
  • I assumed that Tobias probably worked at the mill and that money was tight, which would account for young Snape's mismatched hand-me-down clothes, and poverty would also have put added pressure on what might have already been a troubled marriage, which led to the constant arguments that young Snape tells Lily that his parents always have.

    I say "already troubled" because even under the best of circumstances, a magical/Muggle marriage would probably be difficult. There's the initial shock of the Muggle partner finding out that his or her spouse is a witch/wizard. I'm not sure if it's fanon or canon, but I've heard people say that a wizard/witch is not allowed to reveal the existence of the wizarding world to a Muggle unless they're married, which implies that the spouse gets a big surprise after the wedding. However, I assume that most witches/wizards would probably bend the rules a little and tell their fiance/fiancee before the wedding.

    Additionally, even if the Muggle spouse is understanding about his or her partner being magical, they still have to keep the existence of the wizarding world secret from their Muggle friends and relatives. Imagine having to keep a major part of your life secret from the people that you love--that would have to take a toll. And if your children are witches and wizards, they'll go to Hogwarts and spend about 9 months of every year living apart from you. Hermione barely sees her parents at all, spending many of her Christmas and summer holidays with Ron and Harry. And if they choose to work and live in the wizarding world when they grow up, they'll continue to be distant from life in the Muggle world.

    Getting back to Eileen and Tobias, I suspect that she didn't tell him that she was a witch till after they got married, and that seriously damaged the marriage from the start. (See my essay here for more on my thoughts about that.) I think that Tobias was fearful of her magic, and/or resentful that she didn't warn him about it beforehand.

    I initially thought that Tobias might have been physically abusive, but after reading The Prince's Tale, I'm leaning towards the theory that it was probably just verbal--which is still damaging, of course. But although young Snape looks thin and neglected, we don't see any bruises on him, and he seems more resentful towards both parents than afraid of his father.

    I don't think that young Snape saw much of his Muggle relatives. Tobias may have been afraid of them finding out about his wife's and son's magic--rather like the Dursleys. But (in my mind) they got together occasionally for family gatherings--for Christmas, perhaps. However, since young Snape strikes me as a child who never received affection from anyone, they probably didn't treat him (or Eileen) very kindly. Even if they didn't know about his magic, they probably sensed that there was something different about him (and Eileen), and the other children probably teased him for being a "weirdo".
  • Okay, my two cents...

    I don't think Severus was physically abused so much as neglected. Neglect is a form of abuse of course, but my impression is that Toby and Eileen were trapped in this obsessive, bad marriage, where the couldn't live without eachother, but couldn't go through a day without screaming abuse at each other.

    I actually knew people like this. I grew up in a flat/appartment building (topflat) and the people who lived in the lowest flat (I called the 'Uncle Ton' and 'Aunt Jenny' when I was a child) had such an torrential marriage. In my memory there was hardly a day when they were not shouting at each other. Aunt Jenny had Spanish blood (she always dressed very 'gypsy' with kohl-rimmed black eyes and bright clashing colours) and a temper to match and Uncle Ton (who was a professional artist/illustrator) had a more even temper but even he would go purple-faced and would slam doors, stamp feet and (this would startle me as a child) would bite his own hand in pure anger. They never hit eachother as far as I know. In fact, they dearly loved eachother.
    We, neighbourhood children, would love them, and I've been babysat by Aunt Jenny several times. They were both very childlike and exotic and they were both artistic (which appealed to me because I loved to draw too) but even as a child I knew that it was a good thing they never had children. Not that they would've harmed any child, but there simply wasn't *room* enough in their relationship to include a third person.

    Now, Eileen and Toby.. I don't think their relationship would've been anything as warm as Ton and Jenny's. They were obviously poor, and as Sev said, "They don't like anything much", so I would guess that their marriage started out as this torrentiual love affair that swept both of their feet, but things went downwards for them. The economic recession took Toby's job and he's on the dole (and feels worthless and starts blaming his wife) and Eileen feels seperated from her own culture (and blames Toby) but as much as their marriage has soured, they still can't live without eachother. The bickering defines their relationship and they *live* on it. Like that couple in that famous play (Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor made a famous movie of it.. can't remember its name though)

    Poor Severus falls outside the tunnelvision that is their lives. They are hardly aware of him, so focussed are they on each other. This would explain much of Severus' desire to be loved and his conviction that Lily is his best friend (because we only see her bickering with him and bitching and berating him - he might interpret that sort of behaviour as 'she cares for me')

    Severus is therefor a person who is truly 'severed' from his environment in a triple way. In the muggle world he is an anomaly, in the Wizarding World he is an ugly halfblood without friends, family and connections to help him and within his own family he is the eternal outsider too, locked outside his parents destructive/obsessive/neglective relationship. He truly stands alone.
    Hmm.. Monostatos... 'he who stands alone/apart'...

    Hmm.. with just the switch of the word 'Schwarzer' ('Black') with 'Slytherin' I would think that Monostatos' little aria (from Die Zauberflote/The Magic Flute) would fit very well.

    Every creature feels the joy of love,
    and bills and coos and hugs and kisses -
    but I must forego love
    because a Slytherin is ugly?
    Have I not been given a heart?
    Am I not of flesh and blood?
    To live forever without a wife
    would really be hell to me.

    • Cat on a hot tin roof is the movie, I think.
      Great point with Severus being severed from those around him.
    • I think the play/movie is "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?"
      • I agree with this guess too, although it's quite possible the theme has been played out in more than one work.
      • Ah, right. It's Paul Newman, not Richard Taylor, in the 'hot tin roof'
      • Yes, that's the one. I never could watch it, because it's simply painful to watch. Two people who are continually at each other's throat (verbally, nastily) in a continuous game of oneupmanship. You'd think, 'why don't they divorce, if they so hate each other?', but realize that they can't. Their love was once too passionate, and now their love has turned to hate, it is *still* too passionate for them to abandon.

        The reasons why I think Eileen and Toby fall into this category are: I don't fancy the idea of Eileen being 'abused' (physically). She's a witch, for goodness sake. Even without her wand, she's could kill him in a thousand ways. Even without wanting to, her magic would probably lash out when she was threatened. If she is physically abused, you'd have to think of all kinds of excuses why she a) doesn't retaliate and b) why she is letting her son run around so thoroughly 'uncared for' like a 'plant that had been too long without sunlight' and c) why the hell she didn't run away with her boy. Fanficcers have been creative, but it just doesn't sit well with me. Even if had been manipulated/browbeaten/magicked into subservience to a magicless bum who lived in a hovel, you'd have to find excuses for why nobody in the WW would give a damn. How many Meropes are there in the WW, for goodness sakes?! At least Eileen went to Hogwarts.. There must've been schoolmates, teachers, anybody who gave a damn?


        • Even if had been manipulated/browbeaten/magicked into subservience to a magicless bum who lived in a hovel, you'd have to find excuses for why nobody in the WW would give a damn. How many Meropes are there in the WW, for goodness sakes?! At least Eileen went to Hogwarts.. There must've been schoolmates, teachers, anybody who gave a damn?

          Dude, she was a Slytherin. Nobody gave a damn. ;)

          Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with Eileen and Toby (hee) is that she probably felt some guilt for keeping her magic a secret. I'm sure she held her own and I don't believe Tobias was abusive, but then I also hold that Toby didn't find out about the magic until Severus first performed some as a small child. If she kept the secret that long (I'd put Severus at about 4 or 5), that's 5 to 6 years that she's been lying to her husband about a fundamental part of who she (and Severus) is. If she kept it secret that long, it would be only logical to assume that she had no intention of ever telling him. That level of deception and distrust would have completely changed the way Toby viewed their relationship. Something that big is enough to turn a relationship sour, I'd think.
        • She wasn't pretty, looked sullen, wasn't one of the cool kids. Who would have cared?
    • Like that couple in that famous play (Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor made a famous movie of it.. can't remember its name though)
      1967 Taming of the Shrew.
  • I think that when/if Tobias worked, he probably worked at the mill. But it's very likely that he was eventually fired or laid off and that contributed to the troubles in the household.

    I think he was both verbally and physically abusive. Probably more so if/when he drank, which I think is a very strong possibililty. He could have been a falling down drunk 99% of the time or he could have been an "on the wagon/off the wagon" type who went through phases of being especially bad.

    Someone else mentioned Snape having all the characteristics of a child from an alocholic home and I did a rather lengthy post about that very topic on my LJ site. After reading about the characteristics of an ACOA, I saw a very accurate picture of Snape.

    I think that Eileen was just not a very strong or confident woman. She probably married the best she thought she was able. I think it's likely that Tobias didn't know she was witch until after marriage and perhaps felt tricked and like she was a freak and used it as an excuse to torment her more. When his son was the same as her, it made him an easy target for Tobias's anger (which was probably self loathing). Probably she did the best she could for Snape, though it was probably not a lot because she lacked the mental and physical tools to cope with her life.

    I don't think there was extended family. I see both the parents as coming from small, unsocial families. Whether they were rejected by these families for being "different" or just undesireable or they made the choice to sequester themselves from everyone else, I'm not sure. But I don't see there as having been close relatives that would have given Snape any reason for hope of normalcy in his family or positive role models. I think by the time Snape was an adult both sides of the family had either died out or were so far removed from him they were like strangers.

    I think Snape saw few positive Muggle role models in fact. I still believe that he felt rather jaded regarding Muggles because of his view of his father.

    All of this is my instinct and imagination about Snape based on my interpritation of canon and mild interest in human psychology!!
    • I think that Eileen was just not a very strong or confident woman. [...] Probably she did the best she could for Snape, though it was probably not a lot because she lacked the mental and physical tools to cope with her life.

      I don't know about "confident", but I disagree that she was not a strong woman. She would have to be, to hold up under all that, especially if she was isolated from help.
      • We don't really know how well she did hold up. What happened to her? We don't know how long she lasted, if she died as a direct or indirect cause of Tobias's said abuse, or how much she was really able to protect her son. I'm not trying to say she was "weak" as an insult. But most women in abused relationships don't feel as though they have any power at all. So she may have been strong enough to survive (which in itself would be a feat), but we don't know if she was strong enough to ever break away or take control of her situation. I have a feeling she perished while still under the repression of her husband, even if he had died long before, because the message of abuse had been so strongly ingrained that she still believed herself powerless.
  • My speculations-

    It's true, as everyone has said, that we don't know very much at all, and I was actually shocked at how little we were told. But, as Miss Climpson said in "Strong Poison" the prisoner's demeanor is part of the evidence. Like her, I feel entitled to take it into account.

    So - what is that demeanor? Serious neglect as a child, certainly, and very poor socialization. This startled me because adult Severus doesn't actually seem all that poorly socialized. But I do get the very strong impression, both from the man and the boy, that Severus, contrary to what Rowling has said, was never unconditionally loved by anyone. I really think:
    That his parents married because Eileen was pregnant.*
    That, at first, his dad may have been happy to have a son, but that (as Sylvanawood has said) Eileen never told her husband that she was a witch - and an outburst of Severus's was Toby's first warning of what he'd gotten into.
    The parents then switched attitudes. Toby may have rejected his son because of magic, while Eileen - who may earlier have thought Severus a Squib - finally accepted him.
    I think that, in this way, both parents were psychologically abusive. As to physical abuse - I don't think *any* of the abuse was intentional. But there are clear signs, in canon, that Severus *was* physically abused. What strikes me most strongly is the sharp line he seems to draw between verbal and physical violence. The one is "okay", apparently, while the second is not. What I'm getting at-
    As I've said earlier, Severus Snape came from a time, place and culture in which it was perfectly normal to physically discipline children. Spanking, caning, the belt - he would have gotten all three of these, both at school (if he went to a Muggle school) and at home. For a sensitive, high-strung and introverted child like Severus, a normal spanking is pretty close to abuse. What makes the occasional spanking tolerable is the love in a normal family. His was not a normal family.

    That's the way I see it, anyway. I didn't think (pre DH) they were wildly dysfunctional, but I did think the Snapes were very stressed and living on the edge - and that sensitive little Severus blamed himself. After DH, real squalor and physical abuse - not just old-fashioned discipline - seemed more, not less, likely.

    *Nemisister, I know you are relying on the newspaper accounts and dates to argue against a shotgun wedding. I'm not sure you can rely on them, though - this is Rowling we're talking about! the woman of the 13-year-old fathers and the changing birthdates - she's hopeless at math and calendars! However, if it was not a shotgun wedding, I firmly maintain that Eileen did not want children. I really think she was happy with Severus only when he proved to be a wizard.
    • Re: My speculations-

      Yah! Someone else is quoting Dorothy Sayers in these posts!

      First off, re the poor socialization as a child vs. adult demeanor: we know that Severus more or less totally remade himself--clothes, accent, etc. Someone smart enough can consciously learn such social skills as he deems appropriate, too.

      I also think Tobias's attitude may have soured because (he felt that) Severus rejected him: chose Eileen's values over his. Certainly he must have given up on influencing his son by the time we see first Severus in the playground: what red-blooded man would let his wife dress his son in her smock??? By that time it's clear that Severus himself is pinning his whole identity and hopes of happiness and belonging on being a wizard.

      I agree that the sharp line Severus draws between verbal and physical violence is significant, and I like your interpretation of what it means.



      • Re: My speculations-

        I also think Tobias's attitude may have soured because (he felt that) Severus rejected him: chose Eileen's values over his. Certainly he must have given up on influencing his son by the time we see first Severus in the playground: what red-blooded man would let his wife dress his son in her smock??? By that time it's clear that Severus himself is pinning his whole identity and hopes of happiness and belonging on being a wizard.

        I agree with this. I've always gotten the impression that Severus was always closer to Eileen than Tobias and that Tobias had a difficult time connecting with him. When Severus proved to be magical, any success Tobias may have had would have been completely undermined. What point would there have been in Severus cultivating Muggle interests when he was going to go be a wizard. By the time Severus is nine, it's quite likely that Tobias had given up like you said.
        • Re: My speculations-

          Yes, I can see this as well. And it's ironic that, in some ways, Severus is a good "father" to Harry, when he himself seems to have been on a quest for a father figure (first Voldemort, then Dumbledore) and when he never received the love or paternal nurturing he needed.
  • (Anonymous)
    I think we can safely say that the Snape's were not well-off money-wise.

    This suggests the high possibility that Tobias worked at the Mill and then lost his job when the Mill closed (happened rather often in the '70s) or whether it suggests he had some other reason for a lack of money...??? Unknown. All we know for sure is that by 1975, Snape's undies were old enough that they were a dingy grey and he was using a used textbook (either his mother's or from the 2nd hand shop)

    I disagree with the idea of a shotgun wedding. I'm afraid I believe in something even sadder. IF that potions book really was originally Eileen's then she apparently finished Hogwarts in the late 1940's - yet Severus is not born until apparently 1960 - apparently a year after she marries. Making her wedding year 1959 - at least 10 years after Hogwarts.

    Now true, not everyone is going to wed straight out of school - yet back in the 1950's it was VERY unusual for a woman to not be married by the age of 30. And in the late 1940s? IF a woman was going on to college, it was with the idea that she should meet her husband there (or at least have some profession to support her if she didn't)

    So, I find it very likely that Eileen would have been considered a spinster and pretty much PAST the marrying age by the time she 'settles' for a Muggle in '59. Remember that the only photo we have of her is not exactly flattering. Neither she nor Tobias would be considered 'a great catch'.

    I think they both felt that the other was their last chance at marriage and then when it doesn't result in a 'happily-ever-after' it really all falls apart.

    As for abuse - I think Tobias had to have been physically abusive as well as verbally. Assuming the man and woman in Snape's memory that Harry saw in Occlumency Lessons were in fact Snape's parents, we see Eileen actually 'cower'. That suggest more than just verbal abuse, that suggests fear.

    Additionally, when Snape throws Harry out of his office, we have Snape 'shaking' Harry until he apparently realizes what he is doing and tells him to leave. This (to me) says Snape is at the point where he might lose control and become physically abusive himself. I think he purposely stops himself - telling Harry to leave - and then can control it no longer and his magic throws the roach jar (just like Harry 'blew up' Aunt Marge). Anyways - I think Snape threw Harry out because he feared becoming abusive like his father.

    All this said, I do NOT believe Tobias was an alcoholic (as many think). Snape is too calm and accepting around drinking to have had an alcoholic in his past.

    I believe however that Tobias (like Mr. Finnigan) was unaware that his wife was magical. He may have felt not just 'trapped' but 'fooled'. But one thing is sure for me - he did not care for Severus. NO man would allow his 10-year-old boy to dress in a BLOUSE if he cared for him especially not back in the 1960s. That is not just neglect, that is total refusal to acknowledge the boy. No man would make his boy wear women's clothing in public. He would give the kid HIS old shirts first.

    And the 'blouse' incident proves to me that Eileen was too depressed to care for Severus either. She would have been living IN a muggle community for 10 years by then. She MUST know by then what normal muggle boys wear. The only excuse for the Blouse would be that she was too depressed to do magic and so could not transfigure it for him.

    As for cousins - the young hopeful Snape we see in his memory of meeting Lily seems to me to have been so alone in his young life that he has no idea how to act around other children. He is known as that 'Snape boy'. Odd by reputation even then. That is not a child who has grown up with other children. IF there were cousins they were seen very rarely. And remember, it isn't as if they could risk accidental magic happening around any muggle cousins. But I think he was too unsocialized to have had much interaction with ANY children - leaving out the possibility of wizarding cousins visiting as well.

    Plus IF Tobias was physically abusive (or even just verbally), he wouldn't really want Eileen's magical relatives coming around and protecting her (or Sev)

    -- Hwyla
    • Wow, so many wonderful points!

      Especially about Eileen's marrying age and Snape growing up completely unaffected by the sight of himself or other people drinking... I never thought of those things, but excellent points! Makes a whole lot of sense.

      I also love your take on the cockroach scene. Oh yes, that seems definitely like an attempt to stop himself from physically attacking Harry. To speculate further, he might even have called off the solitary lessons partly because he didn't trust himself in solitary one-on-one sessions with the brat that so enrages him so much. Whether or not his aversion to physically harming his students is borne out of his own experience with an abusive father (you've got a great case that it might be) I just think this side of Severus is extremely consistent and makes him a very moral person at the very core of him.

      I was thinking the same thing about Snape lashing out at Harry in HBP when the boy cluelessly torments him with "kill me then like you just did Dumbledore!" (Don't worry boy, he's been ordered to do just that!) That jab has got to sting very badly, and Snape does lose control, slashing the air above Harry, but he aims that magic *at the air*. I loved that scene even before knowing anything about Severus' true feelings, because it shows exactly how unwilling he is to hurt (even slightly, since the wisps of magic that did hit Harry didn't seem to be too bad and nothing long-lasting) someone whose powers are clearly beneath his own. Which is very different from what we learn of James and Sirius' characteristics BTW (their bullying of random students simply because they can, their attitude toward the Muggle policemen, Sirius' attitude toward his slave...) and I am forever puzzled as to how I'm supposed to think of James as the Moral Fighter and Snape as the man deserving of living and dying in pretty miserable ways.
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