Daily Scans - The World According to Rob Liefeld...

From:	foxhack
Date:	July 6th, 2009 11:51 pm (UTC)

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Yeah okay, I read Scott and Logan and my mind just went somewhere else.

Of course, having a guy with a Cyclops visor and a guy with Wolverine hair didn't help either.

I can't even scream at how ridiculous this crap is.

From:	kamino_neko
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:20 am (UTC)

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I'm pretty sure that was exactly the point.

You know as well as anyone that Liefeld's never been subtle.

From:	jlbarnett
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:29 am (UTC)

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I'm surprised something that blatent wouldn't get him slapped with copyright violations

From:	uadlika
Date:	July 6th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC)

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wha?

From:	ian_karkull
Date:	July 6th, 2009 11:56 pm (UTC)

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Ugh, please let's not go there.
This isn't Fandom Wank, plus I've been following this thing all through yesterday and the little shouting match between "He Who Shall Not Be Posted"* and "He Who Shall Only Be Named In AllCaps Of Despair* was rather sad, completely ridiculous and utterly pathetic.

Besides, who gives a damn about Shatterstar anyway?

(*PAD and Liefeld, respectively)

From:	taggerung301
Date:	July 7th, 2009 12:02 am (UTC)

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o_O
what on earth is this?

From:	kd_the_movie
Date:	July 7th, 2009 12:09 am (UTC)

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Liefeld isn't anti-gay. He just felt they're taking a character he co-created in a direction that he doesn't support.

From:	taggerung301
Date:	July 7th, 2009 12:56 am (UTC)

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I was just curious what comic this is

From:	galateus
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:03 am (UTC)

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It looks like it's from this (locked entry for NSFW content). "Herogasm" still sucks as a name.

From:	foxhack
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)

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It's not. Herogasm's by Garth Ennis.

This is by Mark Millar.

From:	ashtoreth
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:53 am (UTC)

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Actually, I think this is a Youngblood thing. I heard about it sometime back. The actuality is disappointing. Seriously, lame porn.

From:	sd_mouser
Date:	July 8th, 2009 02:08 am (UTC)

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...the Penthouse Comix stuff was less bad...

From:	ashtoreth
Date:	July 8th, 2009 03:13 am (UTC)

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YOU SAW THAT TOO! Really, the Penthouse Comix superhero series looks like it was based on parodying Youngblood. I wish I owned real copies.

From:	icon_uk
Date:	July 7th, 2009 12:16 am (UTC)

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So, in the world of Rob Liefeld, two men kissing because they are romantically involved is a bad thing.

Well, no that's NOT what he said.

His words were;

"I have nothing against gays, I have gay family, nuthin’ but love here. Ditto gay characters if that’s what their true origins are.

“As the guy that created, designed and wrote his first dozen appearances, Shatterstar is not gay. Sorry. Can’t wait to someday undo this. Seems totally contrived.”

Leaving aside the whole "Spartan" bit, he says he has nothing against a gay character or two, he has a problem with a character he co-created and intended to be deliberately asexual, suddenly being gay.

Lord knows I may not be a fan of the man's work, but I'd rather we didn't cast generalised aspersions which don't match his comments.

There's a debate about it here, with both Rob and Peter David commenting on the matter

From:	timemonkey
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:26 am (UTC)

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There's always the fact that Shatterstar's been switched to a new body to explain the sidden gayness.

From:	jlbarnett
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)

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frankly I think all the recurring Mojoverse characters should be revelaed to have been cloned several times.

From:	freezer818
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:28 am (UTC)

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Liefeld's protests might hold a bit more water if he'd given 'Star anything approaching a personality outside of "Badass With Swords". Or had anything to do with the character for the better part of two decades.

From:	foxhack
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:29 am (UTC)

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That's more or less why I didn't say anything. As much as I dislike the guy's art, he's not flaming or anything. He's just saying he disagrees with it.

From:	bluejaybirdie
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:43 am (UTC)

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Huh. I kinda feel a bit sorry for Rob, at this point. Man can't draw for crap, but I don't think he's the a-hole he's being presented as in some of the comments either.

From:	psychop_rex
Date:	July 8th, 2009 05:28 am (UTC)

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He seems like a nice guy and all, just a talentless hack when it comes to the actual drawing of comics. I have similar complaints about Ronald Reagan.

From:	(Anonymous)
Date:	July 7th, 2009 03:09 am (UTC)

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That first sentence is really close to "some of my best friends are gay." It's a problematic distancing technique.

But I think the real issue is the audacity in this apparently sincere quote:

“Your opinion doesn’t change the fact that it sucks and it’s not a positive move in most fans’ eyes. And it’s all well and fine that you don’t respect a creator’s wishes or intent. I’m different like that.”

Uh-huh. I love "your opinion doesn't change the fact that it sucks." So clever!

From:	kingrockwell
Date:	July 7th, 2009 03:53 am (UTC)

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Yeah, I think the argument's making too many assumptions, especially the ones getting on to Liefeld for making these statements about Shatterstar when he hadn't complained about anything else in the past twenty years going on with characters he'd created. That accusation kind of misses the point that someone explicitly asked him on his message board how he felt and then those statements were reposted on Robot6.

I've got no love for the guy, but people should really save their energy for a fight that's worth it. Liefeld's way too easy a target, especially with the hole he dug himself with his poor choice of words, to come out of this looking like anything but a bully.

I mean, sure, congrats on finally saying what we'd all been thinking as far as Rictor/Shatterstar goes, but way to stay classy, PAD.

From:	trelas
Date:	July 7th, 2009 05:43 am (UTC)

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To be fair, I don't think the fuss would have been this big if Liefeld had stopped at that. Instead he did continue to point out how he couldn't wait to undo this character development which set people back and other stuff, as you probably noticed in the discussion and kind of falls over all of the place in defending that position.

From:	flidgetjerome
Date:	July 7th, 2009 10:34 am (UTC)

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he has a problem with a character he co-created

The fact that he co-created Shatterstar with Fabian Niceiza isn't getting brought up very much in this kerfluffle. I'd honestly be a lot more sympathetic for Rob if wasn't acting like he was the sole creator and ignoring Niceiza's stated position that Shatterstar would develop a sexuality over time.

From:	drsevarius
Date:	August 22nd, 2009 02:15 am (UTC)

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Niceiza's stated position that Shatterstar would develop a sexuality over time.

what did he say?

From:	janegray
Date:	July 7th, 2009 07:47 pm (UTC)

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he has a problem with a character he co-created and intended to be deliberately asexual, suddenly being gay.

But the thing is, Shatterstar didn't "suddenly" become gay. Heavy implications that he is gay have been presented for over a decade.

http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/183707.html

In particular, X-Force #56, which was published in 1996, has the following paragraph:

She has lost Warpath. [Shatterstar] has lost Rictor.
Both see these missing teammates as "friends."
Both too stubborn to admit they may mean more then that.

If Liefeld claims that Shatterstar's coming out is "contrived", it means he hasn't been paying attentio to the character for at least 13 years.

From:	jlroberson
Date:	July 7th, 2009 11:08 pm (UTC)

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Anyone who starts a sentence with "I have nothing against gays"--phrased that way--does.

From:	icon_uk
Date:	July 7th, 2009 11:31 pm (UTC)

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Can't agree with that, it's the ultimate "damned if you do, damned if you don't" statement regarding how you view sexuality.

The fact that it IS a cliche amongst those who are prejudiced, is not enough to reverse generalise that anyone who uses it is automatically prejudiced

From:	jlroberson
Date:	July 7th, 2009 11:38 pm (UTC)

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Okay, granted. That was unfair. I've been in that position as "some of my best friends" indeed are gay.

From:	foxhack
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:40 am (UTC)

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Oh, from a thread linked to below, this is something Rob said (it's relevant to the scan):

“I remember seeing some image, I believe from a Youngblood comic by Rob Liefeld, where a group of ” heroes” are sitting around in a bathtub, doing drugs and getting blowjobs from two characters that look an awful lot like Cyclops and Wolverine.

Did I imagine that?”

No you did not. That was Youngblood:Blodsport written by Mark Millar and drawn by myself. Approved and published. Mark used that scene to depict the debauchery that former Youngblood’s had fallen into.

So, even though Liefeld drew it... Millar wrote it.

From:	ashtoreth
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:56 am (UTC)

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Millar usually does better dialogue. This is painfully stilted.

From:	sinisterlink
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:55 am (UTC)

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Okay, saying already that Rictor and Shatterstar are in a "romantic relationship" is getting just a bit ahead of yourself. Seriously, it's one panel at the end of an issue where Shatterstar grabs Rictor's face and kisses him. While Peter David has stated that it's not a cop-out or anything, one kiss does not mean they are instantly a couple. If they DO become a couple, that's fine. But I'm kind of tired of going on different messages boards and such and seeing people already looking waaaaaay too into this. Seriously, I went to one messageboard and almost everyone there was just going on and on like, "OMG, I'm so happy they are a couple now, they are so in love with each other, this is so awesome, maybe they'll get married and we can have the first gay wedding in Marvel, etc." Everyone needs to just chill and wait till the next issues or whatever to see how it pans out.

If Rictor and Shatterstar do get together, I hope they at least mention that Rictor is bi, though. I will be so ticked off if they do a Willow and have him just suddenly be like, "Oh, I'm gay now".

From:	schala_kid
Date:	July 7th, 2009 05:03 am (UTC)

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I know, Rictor always seemed to me as being pretty interested in women, so he at least has to be bi.

From:	icon_uk
Date:	July 8th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)

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Not necessarily, it could just as easily be that he'd never even considered men as romantic/sexual partners before, but now he has, that's what he wants. Orientation is within the mind of the person, not an external assumption.

Willow Rosenberg is an example, she'd have classified herself as straight (and does) right up until the moment she meets Tara. From that point on she identifies exclusively as gay, never once bisexual. The fact she's HAD a sexual relationship with a male in the past doesn't automatically make her bi.

From:	southerncracker
Date:	July 7th, 2009 04:05 am (UTC)

I always remember Youngblood as the poster child for 90s decadence.

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But this page is serious crack.

How the hell did they not get in trouble with Marvel for this?

From:	timgueguen
Date:	July 7th, 2009 05:38 am (UTC)

Re: I always remember Youngblood as the poster child for 90s decadence.

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Parody defense? After all it can be argued the viewer is supposed to know that isn't the real Logan and Scott.

From:	nezchan
Date:	July 7th, 2009 05:38 am (UTC)

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You know, the badstupid gay thing doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that his head in the first panel is only three inches thick.

From:	statham1986
Date:	July 7th, 2009 10:31 am (UTC)

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Liefeld is a touch more eloquent here than he usually is, right up until this point;

“Your opinion doesn’t change the fact that it sucks and it’s not a positive move in most fans’ eyes. And it’s all well and fine that you don’t respect a creator’s wishes or intent. I’m different like that.”

Which just continues to reek of his egotism and stupidity, and hints more at the fact that he's just being a baby about a character he's had nearly zilch to do with in two decades is gay. Despite the fact that the article already states that Shatterstar was asexual and 'learning about human customs' and the like. So is it, oh, I don't know, too much of stretch to imagine he decided to be gay??

From:	ssjrevan
Date:	July 7th, 2009 01:17 pm (UTC)

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Um why does Cyclops have Jeans head?

From:	long_silence
Date:	July 7th, 2009 09:02 pm (UTC)

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I assume its a wig.

Same reason Logan's wearing the Marvel Girl mask.

From:	janegray
Date:	July 7th, 2009 07:34 pm (UTC)

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To my understanding, Liefeld wrote the character for his first dozen appearances, giving him only the very shallowest characterization, then completely abandoned him for like twenty years, leaving other writers to develop him nearly from scratch. These other writers have been heavily implying that the character is gay for over a decade (I'm talking Cable-And-Deadpool-level implications, here).

Now the implications finally pay off, and suddenly Liefeld is bitching?

Even though he has had absolutely nothing to do with the development of the character for two decades, and never gave him much of a characterization to begin with?

Even though the anvilicous implications have been going on for over a decade, and he never objected to them?

Even though he doesn't own the character anyway, and Marvel has been making huge changes to all of his creations for decades, and he never objected to those either?

Even though the other creator of the character, Fabian Nicieza, admitted that he meant for the character to eventually develop a sexuality?

Shut up, Liefeld.

From:	kingrockwell
Date:	July 7th, 2009 11:48 pm (UTC)

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I hate to defend the guy, but in all fairness he made those statements now because someone went to his message board and asked him.

From:	silverzeo
Date:	July 8th, 2009 12:56 am (UTC)

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This strip explains why no one takes more than half of today's comic seriously...

From:	psychop_rex
Date:	July 8th, 2009 05:44 am (UTC)

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Sooo, the message is, what? 'If the other guy dresses up like your girlfriend while he's giving you a BJ, it's not gay'?
Also, note the girl in the background looking on in eager interest. 'Oh, wow, come look, they're going to do it AGAIN! Seriously, I would have thought they'd have run out of protein by now.'