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parsimonia 2009-03-20 03:01 pm UTC (link)

I also question why she didn't get a wheelchair accessible apartment? This. She may have blown up her last home, but she isn't destitute, and one would think she'd choose an accessible place. Besides, doesn't she own a bit of Gotham real estate here and there? I still hate all the cover art immensely. And I would like to take this opportunity to restate my annoyance with grown women in fiction always calling their fathers "Daddy", for some reason. Also, what the heck is with the car? Jim's seat (and presumably he's driving) is on the right! LOL But I have to admit, it's not terrible. I appreciate that we get to see Dinah and Dick calling, and hanging out with her dad. But we'll see. I must point out, however, that this does not mesh with Battle for the Cowl, since she was apparently up and running as Oracle in that, and she was shown working with Dick et all there. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	jarodrussell 2009-03-20 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, it's not terrible. I like the artist showing her having to lift one leg with her hand. I like the (accurate!) ramp into the mini-van, rather than everyone in Barbara's life owning a sedan. I don't hate this yet, though I have not made up my mind whether or not to buy the mini. The WTF-ness of her purposely delaying a decent bathroom setup just rubs the wrongly. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kamino_neko 2009-03-20 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	Besides, doesn't she own a bit of Gotham real estate here and there? The way she's talking - and the fact she tore the wall up - suggests she actually owns this building and thus doesn't have to worry about the landlord/caretaker intruding, which is why I'm wondering if she HAD to be in this area, and NOW. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 03:33 pm UTC

(no subject) - unknownscribler, 2009-03-21 02:37 am UTC

(no subject) - kamino_neko, 2009-03-21 11:54 am UTC

	unknownscribler 2009-03-20 03:43 pm UTC (link)
	You didn't notice the driver and the fact there's no wheel in front of Jim? Quite clearly he's in a taxi. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 03:52 pm UTC

	daningram 2009-03-20 03:03 pm UTC (link)
	I wonder if the real reason why DC writers are uncrippling Babs is because they can't be bothered to actually do any research about how handicapped people live, or any research whatsoever. (Reply to this)

	foxhack 2009-03-20 03:05 pm UTC (link)
	DISTRACTION BOOBS. (Reply to this)

	mullon 2009-03-20 03:10 pm UTC (link)
	Because when you're in a wheelchair you don't need a bra. (Reply to this)

parsimonia 2009-03-20 03:14 pm UTC (link)

Also, to be nit-picky (natch), isn't it kind of OOC for Babs to not really talked to Dick since Batman's trip to Omega Never Never Land or wherever? Because I mean, god, if Batman is dead in their view, then wow. I can't see Babs not reaching out to Dick, Alfred, Tim and Cass in their collective grief over Bruce. I could be reading too much into it, but Dick's saying "" comes across as pretty pathetic, for both of them. Dick probably would be seeking comfort from Babs, but she's shutting everyone out, so he ends up having to worry about her as well. Not that this series is about Dick, but, just something to note. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	parsimonia 2009-03-20 03:16 pm UTC (link)
	Whoops, I meant to quote Dick's message there: "Since...since...well, I just want to...I just want to check in with you. If you need anything, I'm here." (Boy do I miss the "edit" feature from LJ over here. ;_; ) (Reply to this) (Parent)

bluefall 2009-03-20 03:31 pm UTC (link)

Babs should be nearly as broken up as Dick, actually, if she thinks Bruce is really gone, and probably more than Tim. That's her uncle/brother/mentor/partner we're talking about here, and the fact that both of them are completely emotionally stunted and don't express it much doesn't mean they don't love each other a great damn deal. (Which is a large part of why Jim's casual "with Batman gone" like he doesn't know what that means to her rings really false). Her pulling away from the family makes no sense, particularly when the whole Goddamn point of cancelling her book was that she theoretically is such a Bat-centered person or whatever. And I gotta think after the third message, Dinah would put down the phone and get on her motorcycle. That said, I actually like the art - the physics point is a fair one, but it's just so astonishing to me to see something that's blatant fanservice and yet isn't cheesecakey. She's naked for a reason that makes sense, and that nudity does not interfere with the storytelling or the tone of the scene. I didn't know Western comics were capable of that. o.O (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 03:57 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 04:05 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 04:30 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 04:31 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 04:36 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 04:48 pm UTC

(no subject) - bluefall, 2009-03-20 04:53 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:04 pm UTC

(Deleted post)

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:32 pm UTC

(no subject) - bluefall, 2009-03-20 05:50 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 08:12 pm UTC

(no subject) - bluefall, 2009-03-20 08:40 pm UTC

Instead we get someone new who gets to be Batwoman, and the most powerful woman in the Batverse who - mysteryfan, 2009-03-21 08:13 am UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:48 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 07:35 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 11:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - bluefall, 2009-03-20 04:47 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:09 pm UTC

(no subject) - gwalla.livejournal.com, 2009-03-20 05:46 pm UTC

(no subject) - bluefall, 2009-03-20 07:59 pm UTC

(no subject) - jarodrussell, 2009-03-20 08:04 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 03:57 pm UTC

kamino_neko 2009-03-20 03:18 pm UTC (link)

I also question why she didn't get a wheelchair accessible apartment? I'll wait until we know if there's any particular reason she chose to move into this neighbourhood before thinking too hard on that - if she had to be in the area for some reason, and fast, it's entirely possible getting a fully accessible apartment was an impossibility. If she had her choice of where to live, or could wait, why she didn't get a more accessible apartment, or wait while it was remodelled to fit her needs, does, indeed become a question. (Reply to this)

	majingojira 2009-03-20 03:28 pm UTC (link)
	God, not only is it a poorly, retcon-happy "Let's bring our character down so she can be relatable" opening; it throws in blatant cheescake not three pages in. I have no hope for this of being any quality. It's going to be average at best if it keeps going at this rate. (Reply to this)

Question: parsimonia 2009-03-20 03:30 pm UTC (link)

(Sorry, I'm totally spamming this post with my comments, but...) I just read this comment on the IGN posting there, to quote in full: Okay, I have given DC some slack after the multitude of bad comics I have read lately, (Teen Titans, All-New Atom, Outsiders). I have also dealt with the large amount of fanservice many of their characters, including shower scenes, sex scenes, mostly lesbian, and degrading costumes. But, after reading the preview of Oracle #1, a book I was actually interested in, I'm just angry, hence the user name. I can not believe that they are showing a Barbara Gordon shower scene. There are some many other more tasteful ways they could have done a shower scene for a disabled person (Read The Sword #1). But showing Barbara with big breasts, getting out of her underwear, and basically making love to a shower head has just crossed a line for me. Having one of the most intelligent, beautiful, and important of all super heroes introduced in her own mini-series like this is just sad. Now, I understand the appeal of beautiful people in various states of undress. It has been done in movies, on TV, and in video games. However, I happen to have respect for heroes of fiction. I know they're not real, but I find a person who does the greater good is cool. I know sex sells, but does it have to take up space instead of of good storytelling? What do you guys think? Was that scene exploitive? If so, is it because she's a woman, or a woman with a disability, or both? It didn't initially bother me. In some ways this kind of scene is interesting and relevant to the character, because I get to see (and possibly learn about) how someone who is paraplegic has to deal with some every day stuff differently. I'm trying to picture what this scene would look like if it were a guy. Somehow I don't think we would've had the taking-off-the-underwear panel, but I don't know. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Question: bluefall 2009-03-20 03:38 pm UTC (link)

Oh, it's definitely exploitative and out-of-place. I was definitely like "WTF, naked Babs?" and it's clearly there for the sole purpose of titillation. But like I said above, it's actually weirdly well-done, for that. I mean, usually fanservice takes the form of a woman in combat putting her ass and spine and tits in places where they just can't go, and certainly would never go while fighting. It takes the form of costumes that are ludicrous and would never be worn into battle. It happens while we're ostensibly supposed to be feeling fear, or horror, or sorrow. It interferes with the storytelling and verisimilitude; it's sex where sex does not belong. This was a woman showering before she goes out (makes perfect narrative sense), being naked in that shower (as you do), during a primarily expository scene (where no emotion is particularly being evoked). Was it unnecessary, yes, would I prefer it hadn't been there, yes, but was it disrespectful to the character? Far, far less so than the Jim Lee belly window spanky pants costume on a Benes-contorted posture is to Huntress. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Question: - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 07:25 pm UTC

Re: Question: - bluefall, 2009-03-20 07:55 pm UTC

Re: Question: - halloweenjack, 2009-03-23 04:09 pm UTC

Re: Question: mysteryfan 2009-03-20 03:57 pm UTC (link)

I think we'd have missed the taking off of the underwear panel, but you know, Dick does a lot of shower scenes, and some of the ones I know of are at least moderately comparable in fanservice. I think it's a bit over the top, the closed eyes and shower head, but, you know, six of one, half dozen of another. She doesn't get locked out of her apartment in nothing but a towel that's just barely hanging on, and sometimes that does happen to Dick. Sure, it IS fanservice-y, but I don't, personally see it as particularly exploitive because she's a woman. What I see as ... What I see as wrong, wrong, wrong, is the idea that this oh so important, incredibly strong, longstanding part of the Batverse isn't more involved IN the Batverse. I resent a lot of the things they do (and am worried they may do!!) to Babs, but this shower scene doesn't bother me at all compared to how much I resent the complete ignoring of the fact that she has a longstanding, very, very important relationship with both Bruce and Dick. That bothers me very, very much. Very. It's probably too much to hope for, but could we get at least one of the Gordons written consistently (re: Batman grief and Batman replacement issues) throughout the books. As I think SisterMagpie pointed out re: Battle for the Cowl, it's not like these books are terribly time-consuming to read. And as I'll point out, these characters have existed for decades. Why nothing close to a consistent vision among books? I don't know why someone as together as her doesn't have a better modified apartment, but that could just be me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Question: - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 04:08 pm UTC

Re: Question: - majingojira, 2009-03-20 04:12 pm UTC

Re: Question: - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 04:33 pm UTC

Re: Question: - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:44 pm UTC

Re: Question: - kingrockwell, 2009-03-20 07:53 pm UTC

Re: Question: - jarodrussell, 2009-03-20 04:13 pm UTC

Re: Question: - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:00 pm UTC

Re: Question: - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 05:15 pm UTC

Re: Question: - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:25 pm UTC

Re: Question: - mysteryfan, 2009-03-21 12:13 am UTC

Re: Question: - scottyquick, 2009-03-20 04:47 pm UTC

	unknownscribler 2009-03-20 03:51 pm UTC (link)
	Ignoring everything else, I can't believe that -- given what happened to her last residence -- Babs would move into a fucking appartment building full of privacy-violating collateral damage in the waiting, then set up her mega console in front of the window after casually stealing the power supply for half the building. (Reply to this)

bluefall 2009-03-20 03:52 pm UTC (link)

It is hilarious that Babs doesn't give a crap that she's shorting out her whole apartment complex and inconveniencing dozens of people in order to get her shit set up. I mean, I actually believe that of her, if she's having a bad week and is minus the mellowing influence of Dinah, I'm just saying. Way to be, Babs. In re: broader matters, I'm conflicted. It's my intention to begin boycotting Bat-books entirely; haven't had any on my pull since the RIP nonsense started and can think of no reason to change that. Why spend my money on something that has every likelihood of Babs-as-Batgirl showing up and making me want to kill things? But I was actually looking forward to that Rucka Batwoman run on 'Tec. I'm not sure what to do. What's the likelihood of 'Tec remaining as independent of the rest of the Bat-nonsense as Dini was keeping it? (Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - scottyquick, 2009-03-20 03:59 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 04:39 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 05:24 pm UTC

	thanekos 2009-03-20 04:06 pm UTC (link)
	HACKERS MURDERED well, they blew up a yellow van, what do you expect? (Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - ashez2ashes, 2009-03-20 05:14 pm UTC

	In case my above comment is tl;dr mysteryfan 2009-03-20 04:14 pm UTC (link)
	I'll happily have many, many shower scenes if they'd just write her character in-character. Showering away. (Reply to this)

	neuhallidae 2009-03-20 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	I can't put my finger on anything specific (except those creepy, creepy eyes and that shirt, but they're not huge factors) for a reason why, but I am really hating that cover. (Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 05:53 pm UTC

(no subject) - neuhallidae, 2009-03-20 05:57 pm UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-20 06:00 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-20 11:13 pm UTC

(no subject) - jarodrussell, 2009-03-20 11:18 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-21 08:14 am UTC

(no subject) - parsimonia, 2009-03-21 06:03 pm UTC

(no subject) - mysteryfan, 2009-03-21 11:06 pm UTC

	philippos42 2009-03-20 11:42 pm UTC (link)
	That's some improbably nice muscle tone on someone who's been crippled for a few years. Cover & interior both. (Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - buttler, 2009-03-21 12:13 pm UTC

ada_c 2009-03-21 12:58 am UTC (link)

Oddly enough, what bothered me most about those pages was her cutting the power! As someone who's lived in an apartment where the power randomly cuts off, I know how terribly inconvenient that is. There goes your alarm, the electric water heater shuts off in the middle of your shower, your dinner's ruined, etc etc. It's really disrespctful to everyone else, and shows her as being terribly self-absorbed. Also I do hope it's not a building where tenants pay for their own electricity, cuz then her stealing power is even worse. She should just get a generator or a solar panel or something. (Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - jarodrussell, 2009-03-21 12:29 pm UTC

(no subject) - ada_c, 2009-03-21 01:59 pm UTC

	strangething.livejournal.com 2009-03-23 09:37 pm UTC (link)
	Top-right screen: Sad Commissioner Gordon is sad. (Reply to this)

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