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GryffindorJ (gryffindorj) wrote in loveandwar,
@ 2008-03-21 11:00:00

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Entry tags:	meta

Meta
torino10154 is sick and gryffindorj is ~~hung over~~ babysitting so this is our quick attempt at meta. Below the cut is a discussion of JKR's misunderstanding of her own characters.

Many of us believe we know Severus Snape well. His personality, his motivations, what sort of tea he would drink-certainly without sugar. In October, Melissa Anelli of the Leaky Cauldron participated in a webchat with the Washington Post. Torino asked her this . . .

Torino: Is Rowling's opinion of the characters the only one that matters or are they open to interpretation by the readers?

To which she replied:

Melissa Anelli: I think that her opinion matters more than any other reader's does, but that doesn't mean we aren't free to imagine the characters in the ways we wish. As long as we don't insist she's wrong about her own characters, you know? It's fun to imagine them in different ways.

Of course, the meat of the answer is that we can't insist she is wrong about her characters. We think she is. We use Severus as an example but in actuality it is Lily we are questioning. JKR said Lily could have grown to love Snape if he hadn't been so obsessed with Dark Magic.

Perhaps we are alone on this but what exactly are young Canon Snape's selling points?
Lets discard his physical attributes as clearly a person can be greasy haired or ill dressed and still be a pleasant human being. So lets focus on his personality.

He loves Lily which is all well and good for a forward moving relationship, but she was a "popular girl" so his affections were not the only ones. Based on some of his sarcastic lines he probably does have a wicked sense of humor. His dealings with people who aren't Lily do seem to suggest an anti-social nature. Or if not then just a very large personal space.

As for talent, he is a most talented potions master. Based on his DADA OWL he was also very concerned with doing well. We hesitate to say he was gifted. There were certainly other more celebrated minds at Hogwarts the same time as him. We admit a fair bit of confusion over the altered Potions book-whether it was entirely his work or not. But even so, Slughorn prattled on to Harry about what a natural Lily was. Which came first then, Snape's love of Potions or his ability to keep up with Lily?

He knew Lily from the time they were both about 10. He apparently was already practicing quite a bit of magic by the time he got to Hogwarts, if Sirius is to be believed when he said Snape knew more curses and hexes than most seventh years. So shouldn't Lily's opinion of Snape have already been turned against his darker side long before the scene in Snape's Worst Memory? She is clearly already amused with James at Snape's expense in that scene..

Lily's opportunity to fall in love with Snape possibly came and went by their second encounter, when he caused the branch to fall on Petunia. Their first meeting was clearly just a misunderstanding: she didn't know what his calling her a witch meant to him. But even accidental magic as we believe is the case with the branch (oh, he thought about it falling all right, but we don't believe he intended it to happen) suggests his darker nature.

They are separated into two different houses. Not just any two houses but houses that have a rivalry as old as the founders. This means they have one class together the first two years of their education. This also means they do not share so much as a single meal together. Lily lives in a house where by definition alone a Slytherin is not worth the time of day.

So which of his charms was she meant to love? He has not money, charm, or a pleasant appearance.

It seems a real life example of the lines from Much Ado About Nothing, Act V, Scene II:

Benedick: And, I pray thee now, tell me for
which of my bad parts didst thou first fall in love with me?

Beatrice: For them all together; which maintained so politic
a state of evil that they will not admit any good
part to intermingle with them. But for which of my
good parts did you first suffer love for me?

Benedick: Suffer love! a good epithet! I do suffer love
indeed, for I love thee against my will.

Of course, if one brings James into the equation, the scales are tipped extraordinarily in his favor. Popular, handsome, moneyed, talented and always around. James was an incredible bully and Lily informs him that he and Snape are equal in that regard.

We would suggest Snape had little with which to win Lily, only her friendship. An appreciation for Snape generally comes with more mature audiences not adolescent girls, which Lily is an adolescent in the majority of those memories. How Rowling could suggest Lily would ever fall in love with Snape is astounding. And for us proves that she really doesn't understand her characters as well as fandom does.

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(Post a new comment)

	svartalfur 2008-03-21 06:10 pm UTC (link)
	Well, JKR can't know if Lily would've been able to fall in love with Snape, since it isn't in the books. Once canon is closed, the author is just another reader (okay, a reader with a copy right, but that's another question g). Characterisation really isn't JKR's forte. ;D May I post a link to your meta at the masterlist? (Reply to this) (Thread)

gryffindorj
2008-03-21 06:51 pm UTC (link)

Once canon is closed, the author is just another reader (okay, a reader with a copy right, but that's another question *g*).
Something I know we both agree with but niether of us had ever put it so well. Really all of those quotes are nothing more than a glorified opinion.

Of course you can link to this from your masterlist.

BTW I forgot to comment on your journal but your meta on Holmes was awesome. It made me go to the library to check out Holmes so I can read it again.

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	svartalfur 2008-03-21 07:06 pm UTC (link)
	Hey, thank you! That's a great compliment. :D Added you to the list here. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	torino10154 2008-03-22 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	Well, JKR can't know if Lily would've been able to fall in love with Snape, since it isn't in the books. Yes, of course. But there are certain things she wants us to believe that are so hard to believe, I almost feel like she read a different book that I did. Saying Lily could have loved Snape just feels disingenuous. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	svartalfur 2008-03-23 10:48 am UTC (link)
	Saying Lily could have loved Snape just feels disingenuous. Yup. Absolutely! Tbh, that remark of hers sounded very condescending to me. I'll give you that white lie and you'll leave me alone with all things Snape. She doesn't understand Snape shippers at all, because she hates her best, most multifaceted character. And what does that say about her? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sweetmelodykiss 2008-03-21 06:38 pm UTC (link)
	That was awesome! Wonderful insight. I wish I could write meta like that. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-21 10:13 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for the very nice compliment. We don't think we're exactly talented when it comes to this at all. This was more of something we agreed about for a very long time and so we brought it here. It's amazing we agree on something concerning JKR and a small bit about James. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	torino10154 2008-03-22 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks. gryffindorj and I are used to arguing like this from our Leaky days. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

gryffindorj
2008-03-22 09:54 pm UTC (link)

*sigh* Leaky the place we met and courted *wink*. Ever miss the days of telling someone how completely wrong they are but in a politeish way? Which reminds me Coach told me he liked my essay but told me I was wrong about Wormtail, that the traitor would redeem himself. Now that I think about it a lot of people told me that. I think I would like a statement from each one stating how correct I was and that they were wrong.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	torino10154 2008-03-23 12:00 am UTC (link)
	You are an egomaniac. You were right, everyone else was wrong. How much more validation do you need? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-23 12:11 am UTC (link)
	everyone else was wrong Give yourself some credit dear you did agree with me and so did T so not everyone was wrong. If I were an egomaniac would I really need the validation? Winning seems to be enough as I didn't go back to rub it in everyone's face. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	torino10154 2008-03-23 01:21 am UTC (link)
	Well, you just said you wanted a statement from everyone admitting they were wrong and you were right. That sounds like wanting to rub people's faces in it. You know I don't really feel this strongly on the topic but you tend to push me into the position of having to take a hard line. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-23 02:10 am UTC (link)
	Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Tarurus? Gryffindor?? I push people? Can this be???? is shocked (Reply to this) (Parent)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-23 02:12 am UTC (link)
	Tarurus WTF???? Taurus (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	torino10154 2008-03-23 02:19 am UTC (link)
	That's my girl. :P (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-23 04:07 am UTC (link)
	It's just too bad comments are more relaxed otherwise I would have my spelling and you would have your commas. (Reply to this) (Parent)

alwaysasnapefan
2008-03-21 06:58 pm UTC (link)

I don't see why she wouldn't have fallen in love with Snape, as opposed to James. James had nothing going for him but looks and money until he stopped being such a bully to most people. He used to hex people for fun. What a little bitch. I hope dearly that memory wasn't the only time Lily told James off.

Snape, on the other hand, enjoyed the darker side of magic and joined the Death Eaters to impress Lily with his power. He seemed to not have been loved at home, unlike James who had an "air of being so well-cared-for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked" (DH, "The Prince's Tale").

It's unfortunate that Lily never looked outside of herself enough to realize the stark impact she always had on Snape's life. By their fifth year it seemed she was just looking for an excuse to dump him as a friend. She thought he was too far gone? Well, he wasn't. If she'd just kept the friendship, just tried a little harder for his sake, he probably wouldn't have even joined Voldemort's ranks!

I can't help thinking that if she knew, really knew, how much Snape cared for her, how much she meant to him, she would have loved him very much indeed, and we'd be reading about Harry Snape or something.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

gryffindorj
2008-03-22 03:45 am UTC (link)

I wanted to give myself time before I replied to this so it didn't come off that I was James fangirling. So ah I'm going to reply to these things in reverse order starting with the last paragraph.
I can't help thinking that if she knew, really knew, how much Snape cared for her, how much she meant to him, she would have loved him very much indeed, and we'd be reading about Harry Snape or something.
No matter how much you desperately love someone and even if you tell them and do everything you can to make sure they know sometime that can never be returned. You can flip that around as well no matter how much someone feels for you or perhaps is worthy of the love you can give them you can't make yourself love them. You can't force romantic feelings.

Even though Lily is not my favorite and I certainly think she is over perfectionized by JKR I do disagree here. It is unfair to expect such depth and responsibility from a fifteen year old girl. It's like being the little jewish girl and all of the sudden your best friend is interested in what Hitler has to say. No he's not going around throwing people into the gas chamber but he is doing something which directionaly endangers who you are not even by choice but by birth. Which leads me to think of James. When it comes to friendship in Potterverse James is really the better example of a friend in good times and bad than Lily. If Ron "don't touch me werewolf" is any indication about the general feeling of werewolves among wizardingkind then Sirius and James not abandoning Remus is truly specatacular. One could argue but they already knew and loved him and knew a werewolf wasn't who Remus was. This is true but a Death Eater wasn't who Snape was either when he was 12. So funny I am defending Lily and slamming her in the same paragraph, so in short you can't blame her except for I do.

Speaking of James we (torino and I) didn't want this to be a James vs. Snape thing because Lord knows her and I will go to our graves never bringing up James with the other ever again. James was a bully, yes but ah so was Snape. Lily says they are the same in SWM. It is not James's fault he is loved, there in fact are worse things in the world then someone being noticeably loved. James is smart (best in his year--McG POA), athletic (even Snape admits this), popular, monied, and good at everything (Remus and Sirius OotP). Snape has NOTHING going for him while James has EVERYTHING going for him. It is neither of their faults that fortune smiled so bright on one and pissed on the other. And even worse Snape can't socialize well at all. On the train James gives Snape a hard time about Slytherin and then he even gives Sirius a hard time about Slytherin"I thought you were ok"--DH. The difference is Sirius gets those 11 year old boy interactions and brushes off James's insult and Snape doesn't know the game and gets huffy. Even his interactions with Lily someone who is his friend already are rough. Snape had no hope with Lily and JKR saying she doesn't get it at all. No one marries the weird kid from next door.

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alwaysasnapefan
2008-03-22 05:55 pm UTC (link)

I think, for a while, he meant a whole lot to her. Where they stopped understanding each other was when he believed he needed power to impress the girl who already liked him a lot. He also chose the wrong kind of power.

How can you blame him for being upset by the boys' advances when he lacked a strong emotional base? You have to have a strong emotional base to deal with intense teasing, and lemme tell you it does not come from a lack of feeling loved, at home or elsewhere. James had that emotional base -- even Sirius did. Wasn't it when he turned Gryffindor that his parents and he grew apart?

Another stupid factor in Lily and Severus's lives that drew them apart was the Sorting Hat. I can't stress enough how I think Sorting is a dumb idea. It only breeds factions and hate. Think of how things would have been different if they were around each other all the time -- think Ron and Hermione and Harry!

Hey, I'm just trying to go with what J.K. said in the chat last summer, which is, like you discussed, that Lily could have fallen for Severus.

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gryffindorj
2008-03-22 07:57 pm UTC (link)

I disagree I never got the impression Lily liked Snape a lot. She liked him as a friend and he made her blush but from those memories I never saw them as an in love couple. I saw him loving her and it no returned.

I think you misunderstand me with the other boys advances. James in that memory is no advancing on Lily AT ALL. In fact he's kind of a dick to her. Snape is huffy about James ripping on Slytherin. My only point was Sirius is socialized most likely from having a brother around and cousins, he knows the game. Snape is not well socialized so he doesn't know the way to get James to shut his mouth is to give him shit right back or not get upset. Sirius always felt different then his family, if he's already thinking at 11 he wants to be different this was not the first time he felt like an outsider in his family. In fact his was so bad he ran away from it .

Sorting hat is dumb but think Luna. Luna is in a different house yet they are able to build a strong relationship with her. I think the biggest problem is that it was Slytherin vs. Gryffindor. It would have been different if it were any other combination of houses.

I know and I know what you mean by what JKR said. All I am saying is that I think she is full of shit on this subject. There is no way in my mind I see Lily ever picking Snape. I think had Lily not died Snape would have gotten over her eventually but he was never given that opportunity.

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	gryffindorj 2008-03-22 08:14 pm UTC (link)
	I should clarify my statement of "There is no way in my mind I see Lily ever picking Snape". It sounds rather rash (read:Gryffindor) of me to say that. I did not mean I see Lily picking James over Snape time and time again. Throw James completely out the window make him never to have been born whatever to me Lily would never have picked Snape period at all ever. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	alwaysasnapefan 2008-03-23 02:56 am UTC (link)
	I guess you're entitled to your opinion, girls, even if it doesn't fit with what the characters' creator herself stated. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-23 04:09 am UTC (link)
	That was our point was that she's is wrong and most fans know better. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	alwaysasnapefan 2008-03-23 04:53 am UTC (link)
	I got your point. I'm just saying, if she invented them, she knows them better than anyone else, because she can change who they are at a moment's notice. No fan can ever know the characters like Jo can, because Jo is their creator and what she thinks she knows about the characters therefore has to be true. Just sayin'. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

torino10154
2008-03-23 05:20 am UTC (link)

I still disagree. Did you know Arthur Conan Doyle didn't understand Sherlock Holmes? He killed him off and had to bring him back by popular demand.

JKR has said things that directly contradict her own books-like that Dumbledore died in 1996 and Fred Weasley in 1997. IMO, those are errors simply because she thinks "oh, Harry's sixth year Dumbledore died so that's 1996." But when she can make simple mistakes of fact, why can I not question her statements?

If it isn't in the book, it isn't canon whether she wants it to be or not. I told my mother about Harry's job as well as a few of the other extraneous tidbits and she asked where that was in the book. Of course I said JKR had said that after and she said oh well, that doesn't count. If it didn't make the story, it wasn't important enough to be included.

I have seen many fic authors say that characters get away from you, they steal scenes, they grow beyond the author's original intent. I firmly believe she had to squeeze Snape back into the role she wanted for him in DH because he had grown above and beyond her vision of him. And I do still believe she created a great character and in DH did all in her power to destroy him.

She tried to take away Snape's intelligence, by showing he followed Dumbledore's every order never thinking for himself; she made him desperately pathetic, by dressing him in his mother's shirt for god's sake; she cut away from Snape everything but his love of Lily and expects us to believe she could have loved him as a man. It's beyond the pale.

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alwaysasnapefan
2008-03-23 05:43 am UTC (link)

I think you have a little too much aggression toward the creator of some of the best characters of our time.

I see Snape how I want to, yes, but that doesn't mean I have the right to say I know him better than she does. If she tells me in person that I know him better than she does, I'll buy it, but until then, whatever she wants him to be, he is. That's how inventing a character works.

Characters take over scenes when I use them, yes, but they're my perception of her characters. My perception. She's right, whatever she says. She is. George marries Angelina Johnson. Hagrid dies alone. Dumbledore is gay. Snape dies. These things are real in the universe she created. They are canon.

We have control over what we perceive the characters to be and in how we use them in our fiction and art, but we are not the experts. She is. We have free rein, but they are hers.

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gryffindorj
2008-03-23 10:07 pm UTC (link)

First off let me defend torino a little bit. She is no unappreciative towards JKR nor the characters she has created. It is true I may see JKR in a bit of a more pleasant light than torino but I do not think torino's opinions are unfounded venomous or unfair.

90% of the readers of Harry Potter do not read every interview, know every quote JKR has ever said. I have heard from many many people "I am surprised Neville didn't marry Luna." To which I think "Of course Neville wasn't going to marry Luna JKR said that he wouldn't ages ago." But the average reader doesn't know these things because they are not important enough for the text. When in 30 years someone who isn't even born yet picks up Harry Potter the text is the text and every thing said about the text is just opinion. That makes the text canon and what JKR says not canon.

She can't even follow her own rules she sets up. So what she got some dates wrong, right? Well what about entirely messing up how the Fidelius Charm from what she said earlier? She completely contradicted what she said about it on her website. But no wait I am wrong there what she says on her site isn't canon so she really didn't mess that up. So lets go with a complete canon inconsistency. In POA it is stated the Potters are under the Fidelius Charm less than a week before they were betrayed. Fast forward to DH and look at the letter from Lily to Sirius. First she talks about crying and crying over the McKinnons death with occured two weeks before the photo shown by Moody in OotP to Harry. Yes in the letter Lily and James haven't seen Sirius in quite a long time. Ok maybe two weeks is a long time to Lily so lets continue to the fact that some people in the picture died quite a long time after it was taken six months plus. She also says DD still has the invisibility cloak which in DH it says DD only had it the week leading up to the Potters death which Sirius had seen them within the week because he was there when the charm was set. Also the letter sounds as if it were sent right after Harry's first birthday (July 31 1981) but clearly if DD has the invisibility cloak and Peter is already to betray them and the Fidlius Charm is in place this letter can not have been sent seven days before October 31, 1981. JKR can't even keep it straight in one letter.

Aside from Snape and Lily JKR has said things about characters that I find not necesarily to be true. JKR said James and Sirius were arrogant to believe they could out smart LV with the Fidelius Charm. This personally infuriates me as James and Sirius trusted a friend and arrogance or not did nothing to believe they could trust a their friend. It's a shame she tries to excuse Wormtail for stabbing James, Lily, Harry and Sirius in the back. There is not excuse for betrayal to someones death let alone a friend.

Look at what she did in Lupin in DH. No one would have ever thought he would run out on his pregnant wife and with such a feeble excuse. She could have given him a much stronger excuse to which Harry could have still reacted the same and not made our dear Remus seem like such an asshole. But she was intent on making us hate everyone we loved. Also Harry using Expliarmus to defeat LV after the talking to Remus gave him about it at the front of the book is a total slap in the face to our dear Remus. And makes Harry look like an complete moron who knows one spell. Good thing him being Head Auror isn't canon otherwise the Wizarding World would be in complete danger of dark wizards because the head of their elite crime fighting force knows one spell.

Her perception though perhaps slightly better then ours because well she created them I do not think she investigates them as heavily as we do. She makes mistakes within her own works so she is going to make mistakes out side of it.

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alwaysasnapefan
2008-03-24 02:30 am UTC (link)

You don't know the birthday of characters she hasn't told you the birthday of. You don't know all the Death Eaters that have ever existed. You will never know anything about the Potterverse unless she tells it to you. You wouldn't have heard of Sirius if it wasn't for her.

I'm pretty sure that makes her the ultimate authority, griffindorj and torino.

But anyway, I'm done arguing this.

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gryffindorj
2008-03-24 04:21 am UTC (link)

First off I could give a shit about birthdays and DE names are all but listed in GOF, OotP and DH, so they are canon there. Second I love the world and characters JKR has created I wouldn't be here if I didn't. But it is not just my right to be critical of Potterverse it is my duty. As a fan I am allowed to be disappointed to the point of anger about the works. Sure it's ok when the story doesn't unfold the way I wanted to but when the story is not the best it can be I can be upset. JKR is brilliant in POA absolutely beginning to end one of the best books I have ever read, that is why when read something like DH and know what she is capable of I can be upset. Further I can be upset when I believe the grasp she has on characters is off. She does not love Snape remotely as much as we the fans do. Does that mean out opinion is better then hers, no. But it does mean that perhaps we take more time to understand and think about what drives him instead of discarding him as a cruel man.

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	alisanne 2008-03-21 07:03 pm UTC (link)
	shakes head And yet another reason for me to think that JK really has no clue about her own characters. Great job, girls! :) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-21 10:15 pm UTC (link)
	The characters have grown beyond her story. She fails to grasp how deeply we feel about them and that just because she says something we don't think it fits the character. Thanks for the very nice compliment. (Reply to this) (Parent)

torino10154
2008-03-22 06:36 pm UTC (link)

Thanks for reading, alisanne.

And yet another reason for me to think that JK really has no clue about her own characters.

That's the thing-little things start piling up and then you finally say, "Hey, wait a minute. That makes no sense."

gryffindorj and I were discussing the fact that in general Snape is more of a mature taste-more what a 30+ year old desires than what a 15 year old would (unless it's Harry of course ;) ).

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	akuma_river 2008-03-22 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	I think maybe if Snape didn't insult her and if she didn't quickly marry James, maybe they could have hooked up. Honestly, I'm sure her and James could have lasted if she saw how badass Snape became... But maybe that's just my Snarry fangirl showing herself. Her loss Harry's gain. ;D (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gryffindorj 2008-03-22 07:48 pm UTC (link)
	Her loss Harry's gain. ;D AMEN!!! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	akuma_river 2008-03-22 07:55 pm UTC (link)
	nods I even address Lily's callous write-off manner of Snape in my Ephiphany fic, unfortunately it's a chapter 1 thing at the moment. must finish fic for pf (uber late fic) (Reply to this) (Parent)

iulia_linnea
2008-03-22 09:20 pm UTC (link)

I think that Lily always had an affection for Severus that was complicated by her concerns with his fascination for the Dark Arts. She does defend him in the Worst Memory scene, and we know that she did continue to be friends with him and defend him even after their different Sortings. I'd be more willing to posit that she was half in love with him at some point, but that his behavior and interests—especially his calling her Mudblood—drove her away. The fact that canon points to her having stood by him for so long is proof of loyalty and affection on Lily's part to me, but an adolescent girl can only be pushed so far, and Snape's adolescent behavior was too much for her to handle. I imagine that if their difficulties had occurred when they were older and Snape had turned away from the Dark Arts, they might have been able to handle their falling out.

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gryffindorj
2008-03-22 10:08 pm UTC (link)

I don't disagree with you on the whole but I do see it different. Yes true she does defend him but she also is amused at his expense at one point. That is what makes me (and I'm pretty sure torino too) think that by time SWM happen she was already growing tired of him. Him calling her a "Mudblood" looks more to be the straw that broke the camels back. I think eventually the sorting would have gotten to them him calling her a Mudblood or not. Imagine the things Snape heard from his peers in Slytherin about being friends with the little Gryffindor Mudblood or Lily who was "a popular girl" being friends with the little greesy Slytherin oddball. I agree that as adults the scenario would have been different but I think perhaps Snape also would have realized there are other women in the world besides Lily.

Thanks for reading and adding such a great comment. You are making me rethink this a little bit.

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torino10154
2008-03-23 01:35 am UTC (link)

I won't disagree that she had affection for him at some point. However, by the time of that scene she clearly is already totally off him. Her defense of him is really more of a scene between Lily and James. Severus and Lily do not speak to one another at all-until he insults her and she replies in kind. Lily does nearly smile when James performs levicorpus on Severus and she points out that James is as bad as Severus is. Hardly a defense of her friend there.

I would maintain that once they were sorted as they were it was never going to work out. Not in Rowling's universe. But from childhood I can recall friends that were my friends at home, on my street but we hardly spoke to each other at school. Friends of convenience not friends of preference. I think at the time Lily really was the exception to Severus's rule regarding Muggleborns.

As a teen, Severus couldn't express how much Lily meant to him and Lily couldn't make it clear to him that what he was doing was driving her away. But I still would compare her to either a popular cheerleader or the homecoming queen and while she might have been friends with many of her classmates, the dorky, nerdy oddball would not have been her love interest.

In my mind Severus is more the type that would marry later in life, to someone that shared interests with him-whether that was another professor at Hogwarts or at one of the "Potions Conferences" we hear so much about. He's like a fine wine. Only with age can he be appreciated.

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	carpet_diemon 2008-03-23 05:43 am UTC (link)
	Awesome. I always think of it the other way around. But looking at it from Lily's POV (so to speak) is really interesting... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	torino10154 2008-04-02 04:55 pm UTC (link)
	I meant to reply to you for ages-I apologize. While gryffindorj says she knows what you mean, I was a little confused when you said you look at it the other way around-do you mean why it wouldn't have worked from Snape's POV? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

carpet_diemon
2008-04-02 10:37 pm UTC (link)

Gyah. It's all right; I figured that maybe you two were the sort that just don't reply to comments. Anyhow, I'm just going to reply to one of you so things don't get too confusing here. I guess what I mean is that, JK holds Lily up as the paragon of virtue, and we're supposed to accept that--no questions asked.

So that left all of us who like Snape yelling "WTF?" My point is just that this is the first time I've seen a close examination of Lily's faults in this relationship. And it really reveals a lot, not only about the, er, unrealistic aspects of her character, but also the aspects of the relationship itself.

I mean, let's assume JK's right. Lily is Jesus in a skirt. Snape is attracted to dark, evil, screwed up characters--and Lily. James enjoys the company of a soon-to-be Voldie's henchman, a werewolf, and a man who everyone could conceive of committing murder--and Lily. It's like, Lily's not even human, she's a snitch, this bright, shiny thing that nobody relates to (not even the readers) but THEY WANT IT.

And that's a sad excuse for love on all sides.

The Beatrice and Benedick analogy only works if Lily is as flawed as Snape. And I kinda wish she had been. Because, even had she not gone with Snape (and she couldn't have, the story would have died), but it would have made things a bit more realistic between James and her too.

Whew. Does that clarify a bit. {;

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gryffindorj
2008-04-02 10:59 pm UTC (link)

We are totally the replying sort it just kind of fell through the cracks. Mostly my fault as I was the one getting the notifications and torino was off sick, dieing and hiding from relatives.

Lily is Jesus in a skirt LMAO!!!! OMG that is so damn funny. Torino and I have always thought she was Mary, Jesus's perfect virgin mother, but this one works as well.

Lily is essentially Ginny since every one marries their mum so Lily is what; bossy, a fangirl, a bit of a slut, and all together very uninteresting. Yeah not better than anything you pointed out.

It's JKR's inability to understand her readers. We love Snape, we love Remus, we (mostly me) love Sirius. We like characters with depth and facets and flaws not some perfect little something we are supposed to love because why? The hero loves them? Or Lily why do we love her? Is it because every male (and I am sure females if we asked) wanted to ~~fuck~~ love her. It's so ridiculous.

I love what you pointed out how is something so perfect even appealing. We don't have to love someone just because we are told to.

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	gryffindorj 2008-04-02 05:07 pm UTC (link)
	I thought I replied to you ages ago, sorry. I say torino reply and realized I hadn't. What you mean, I think, is that you always viewed it of why Snape would pick her. Right? (Reply to this) (Parent)

spidermoth
2008-03-29 06:18 am UTC (link)

IMO, the most compelling case against a friendship between Snape and Lily evolving into something deeper is that the whole friendship seemed to be a last minute, unweildy, and amateurish backstory add-on to explain and justify why DD trusted Snape. IMO again, it just doesn't seem possible that for six years Harry Potter attended Hogwarts and no one ever mentioned that Snape and his mother were friends, or even that they spoke to each other. The whole scenario rings false. Harry spent energy trying to get people to talk to him about his mother for years. How is it possible that until he sees Snape's memories(DH)he is not even aware that they knew each other well enough to speak to each other. Until Harry sees Snape's memories, the only indication he has that Snape knew his mother at all was the incident where Snape called Lily a mudblood. Think about how many times Harry had access to people who were there at Hogwarts at the time Snape, Lily, and the marauders attended school. More so than most students, he had occasion to ask DD, McG, RL, SB, Sluggy, etc. to tell him about his parents. They uniformly told him stories about his Dad and Snape, but not one of them thought to mention that when Snape and Evans came to Hogwarts they were friends. Even if JK needed to hold this important information in reserve so as not to tip her hand about Snape's loyalties, there still should have been a glimmer of their association given to us earlier in the story. I'm not sold.

Also, as has been said, I agree that its just not believable that a beautiful, sunny, smart, outgoing girl of any age would be drawn to, and then stay with, such a troubled, posturing, gawkish, and ill-favored boy as SS. As soon as those children got on the train to Hogwarts Snape lost his only trump card with Lily, which was the fact that up until that time he was the only person she knew who could tell her about magic and the wizarding world. Once she stepped on that train, Snape was no longer an essential commodity. And even giving Snape the benefit of the doubt that one on one he and Lily got along; a gregarious, well adjusted girl would not have to put up with an unpleasant friend when she has so many other, more palatable options. Add to that, the reaction Lily most probably had when she saw Snape in a more social context and found that he was generally disliked. I don't even believe canon does a credible job of convincing us that he was liked within his own house.

TBC...post too long!

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spidermoth
2008-03-29 06:29 am UTC (link)

Anyway...all this has been said. I most definately fall into the camp of fans who will never be convinced that JK really understands her characters. I do believe she is inordinately blessed with a powerful muse--one which speaks through her. She does not have to have a deep understanding of what she creates as long as she does not interfere with their progression. Unfortunately, I found her interference to have been the source of all of the problems with DH. IMO, DH was grossly over-thought and full of character favoritism and sabotage. (In the case of Snape, character assassination.) Just some of the problems for me with DH were the addition of all the devices associated with the DH's which were cumbersome and took valuable time away from resolving outstanding character issues...the fleshing out of secondary and incidental characters such as Alberforth and Grindlewald and Lovegood, etc. which again forced choices to be made to neglect characters who had been with us since the beginning (Snape and Hagrid being glaring examples)...also, over and over again, scenarios were built up then abandoned abruptly or never resolved (leaving Grimmauld Place, the dragon at Gringotts, to name two)...OOC issues were rife, particularly Lupin, but there were many smaller instances...and the denoument with LV was pedestrian and terrifically anticlimactic. Finally, the psuedo-death and then resurrection of Harry was counter to all previous assertions throughout the story that death could not be reversed by magic, and the epilogue was blatant pandering at its worst. (I realize I'm making blanket statements without giving examples but I can do that upon request. lol! Particularyl regarding the epilogue...but really, all I can say is "WTF?")

soooo...that was long winded but I need, every now and again, to get it off my chest.

Thankfully, in fandom, I can truly say "Whew! I feel better now..." then move on to truly enjoying the nuances and depth of the fascinating characters in the HP universe.

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	torino10154 2008-04-02 04:52 pm UTC (link)
	I agree here. So many of us were disappointed with DH. But what clinched it for me was when avowed Snape haters felt he got the shaft. So it wasn't just Snape lovers in denial about it. Add all the other lame and poorly constructed plot threads and it was a mess. And that is sad because it should have been the best book of all. And it's not. (Reply to this) (Parent)

torino10154
2008-04-02 04:48 pm UTC (link)

I didn't see this-sorry! OK, personally I have no real issues with a theoretical friendship between the two of them. How JKR explained it sucked to high heaven but I can't say I was at all surprised that they knew one another. I agree with you about how lame it is that nobody mentioned it, but I do believe JKR did plan it-she just did a piss poor job on the execution. (If you really care, I can go into all the details which I believe support the fact that JKR did actually plan that and it wasn't stuffed in at the last minute, in spite of the fact that it does feel that way in DH itself.)

I totally agree with your second paragraph though-I think you may have stated exactly what we were trying to get across in the meta. But you said it better. ;)

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