InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "You Think You're A Man"

starwolf_oakley (starwolf_oakley) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-18 15:48:00

Entry tags:

char: beast/hank mccoy, char: captain america/steve rogers, char: iron man/tony stark, char: ms. marvel/carol danvers, char: scarlet witch/wanda maximoff, creator: brian michael bendis, creator: steve epting, group: avengers, title: avengers finale

AVENGERS FINALE: I hate Wanda
While recapping the woeful events of AVENGERS #200 and AVENGERS ANNUAL #10, I brought up Ms. Marvel saying she hated Wanda Maximoff in AVENGERS FINALE. And here we are, with words by Brian Michael Bendis and art by Steve Epting. First off, Tony Stark gives a rather half-arsed explanation as to why he can't fund the Avengers anymore and why he's leaving the Mansion a burned-out pit.

Pietro shows up, saying Wanda loved Carol and everyone else. He says Xavier and Magneto are taking care of Wanda, but she'll never be the same once she realizes what she did.

So, Carol hates Wanda more than she hates Marcus, Rogue or Mystique. And who else in the Avengers in that room lost children? I certainly can't think of any.

Stories where mental illness is seen as some sort of moral failing or character weakness really, REALLY aggravate me. That is how society saw mental illness for CENTURIES and still sees it today in many ways.

Yes, this is the superhero comic, and its hard to tell exactly what was wrong with Wanda. And "Womens is crazy!" is common enough in superhero stories. And this is hardly the only example. It's just one of the few times a character we are supposed to sympathize with, if not totally agree with, says that crazy people are just too weak to be sane.

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	geoffsebesta 2009-08-18 08:24 pm UTC (link)
	excellent points. (Reply to this)

	volksjager 2009-08-18 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	I'm with Carol on this one. There are just some things you cannot apologize for. In the end you just don't show your face around the clubhouse anymore... (Reply to this) (Thread)

But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge?

roguefankc
2009-08-18 10:29 pm UTC (link)

If that should be true, then Carol knows that she can't ever make up for her actions in the Civil War and the Registration Act. Ditto for Tony and a good number of the Pro-Regs.

Not that I'm attacking your opinion, but I feel that redemption is for those who don't deserve it (i.e. everyone). If Carol feels this way about Wanda, what's to say the same about Julia Carpenter or Steve Rogers saying the exact same thing to her face?

And I agree that Wanda would have forgiven her.

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	Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? autolychus2 2009-08-18 11:58 pm UTC (link)
	Well, I'm of the opinion that she doesn't have to make up for her actions in the Civil War, but even if she did, nothing she did reaches the level of what Wanda did -- crazy or not. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? geoffsebesta 2009-08-19 02:41 am UTC (link)
	yeah, Marvel is based on the concept that redemption is always possible. Even for the worst person. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge?

novoadonai
2009-08-19 02:51 am UTC (link)

A-freaking-men. They're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at both Carol and Tony in an effort to portray them as the most miserable, persecuted homgz-how-they-suffer people on the planet. i can only imagine this is in an effort to make the audience feel like they've atoned for all the crap they did. as far as i'm concerned, it's not working. i don't forgive Tony and Carol. i don't see how i ever could. but mostly i don't forgive the writers who transformed a character i used to like (Iron Man) and think of as a hero into someone that disgusts me on a personal and professional level.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

starwolf_oakley, 2009-08-19 04:07 am UTC

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

novoadonai, 2009-08-19 04:14 am UTC

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

geoffsebesta, 2009-08-19 07:36 am UTC

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

jlbarnett, 2009-08-19 12:06 pm UTC

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

geoffsebesta, 2009-08-19 12:23 pm UTC

Re: But how does she feel now that Osborn is in charge? -

jlbarnett, 2009-08-19 12:04 pm UTC

ashtoreth
2009-08-18 08:42 pm UTC (link)

The rest of the conversation can be read here.

It's pretty de rigeur in my experience in comics. People always hate the person they loved who betrayed them more than the stranger who wanted to hurt them. Hence, blaming superheroes for Stamford rather than the supervillain who deliberately ran to the school to take out kids. And remember, this is years later, Carol's pretty much forgiven/gotten over the previous trauma.

There was the arc where Kang conquers earth with his son named Marcus. Carol had serious squick but she also forgave him for who he looked like.

(Reply to this)

	xdoop 2009-08-18 09:06 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think Carol is representing Bendis's viewpoint here. I also thought Wanda was portrayed sympathetically in Disassembled and HoM. (Reply to this) (Thread)

rorge
2009-08-18 10:14 pm UTC (link)

I agree. Carol isn't Bendis's mouthpiece here, she's angry, hurting and looking for someone to blame.

The fact that Janet (I think) points out immediately that Wanda would forgive Carol under the same circumstances pretty much sealed it for me that Bendis wasn't condemning Wanda, in any way. They're all sympathetic characters, here.

He demonstrated it again in New Avengers #26, where Clint was all torn up about Wanda killing him twice, and wanted answers, and possibly revenge. After he realised he would get no answers (and after the oddly OOC sexy time), he just left, eventually telling the New Avengers that what he found would do no one any good.

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	starwolf_oakley 2009-08-19 04:21 am UTC (link)
	It was the "Hey, I didn't go on a rampage" and none of the other Avengers went nuts that bugged me. Frank Nelson voice: Well, aren't we soooooo much more mentally stable, Ms. Marvel. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jlbarnett 2009-08-18 09:33 pm UTC (link)
	I just wish they'd fix Wanda. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ar_feiniel_ 2009-08-18 10:56 pm UTC (link)
	Ditto (Reply to this) (Parent)

	volksjager 2009-08-18 11:29 pm UTC (link)
	fix her how? Reality altering power just don't bode well for mental stablity. The same with Franklin Richards... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	timemonkey 2009-08-19 01:25 am UTC (link)
	Tone her powers back down. Come up with some explanation for why they got to powerful and then have that taken away. Maybe there's a surge in the ambiant mystical energy in the Marvel universe and it cranked Wanda's powers up, but once it's over they'll go back down to something reasonable. Or have her hex herself so she can't do this again. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kenn_el 2009-08-18 09:47 pm UTC (link)
	I faithfully read Avengers for years, and Wanda and Pietro were two of my favorites. I haven't picked up Avengers since Avengers:Dissed, nor do I care to. Aside from Marvel's discomfort with women with too much power (see also:Jean Grey), there's also the supposed catalyst for Wanda's psychotic break, which made no sense! Sorry for the rant. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	punishermax 2009-08-18 09:55 pm UTC (link)
	Well let's be totally honest about Jean here. When she became Dark she slaughtered an entire planet, it would have been pretty fucked up for here to walk away scot free from that. And plus she comes back so many damn times they save her a place at the dinner table. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kenn_el 2009-08-18 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	Unless it's been retconned (which I admit is likely), Jean 'ate' a star's energy, which resulted in the death of the Broccoli People. Galactus gets a pass for purposely devouring planets. Hers was at least inadvertent. Marvel promoting eating disorders in women has always been my take. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)