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richardak ([info]richardak) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-02 05:23:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: black racer, char: captain atom/nathaniel adam, char: death of the endless, char: nekron, char: phantom stranger, creator: cary bates, creator: greg weisman, publisher: dc comics, title: captain atom

Captain Atom Does Not Have a Near-Death Experience...

In a comment to scans recently posted by [info]espanolbot depicting a meeing between Tim Hunter and Death, [info]volksjager  mentioned an appearance that Death made in Captain Atom #42. So I decided to post the relevant scans. First, though, I thought I should offer some explanation of what's going on here.

Captain Atom #41 to #43 contained a story-arc that I have to confess I didn't really understand when it first came out; as story about metaphysics and spirituality seemed so out of place in a title that was usually concerned with covert ops, conspiracies, politics, and intrigue. After a while, I began to understand what I believe Bates and Weisman were doing here. You see, Captain Atom is very different from just about any (pseudo-)science-based hero, but similar to some of the more magically-oriented characters like the Spectre in one critical respect: his story begins with his death. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about the silver age Charlton version or the iron age DC version, or for that matter Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan. Simply put, they were transformed into super-beings when their mortal bodies were destroyed, the event normally termed death.

As an aside, I always thought that fact made Dr. Manhattan's statement that there was no difference between a live body and a dead one to be oblivious to the point of absurdity, since Dr. Manhattan/Captain Atom is pretty much walking proof of the existence of the soul. Bates and Weisman, however, were the only storytellers to do anything with that aspect of the character.

What they did with it is this story: Cap is manipulated into, in essence, committing suicide so that he can be with his dead wife Angela. The Black Racer collects his soul and leads him to the beginning of his journey into the afterlife, where he meets another version of death:





I think it's interesting that he feels the need to cover up in front of her. More on that after the next page. It's also interesting to note that he can still transform into Captain Atom, even though he is now just a disembodied spirit.

I also think it's interesting that the compassion, the release, that she's offering him seems pretty clearly to be erotic in nature. Or so I infer from the fact that he pulls away from her, telling her that he's married. I suppose this interpretation was probably an inevitable consequence of depicting death as an attractive young woman. I think the same implication was there in Death: The High Cost of Living, in that I think it was at least in part because he was attracted to her that Sexton kept following her around the whole day.



Next, Cap has to ascend through Purgatory, where he gets some help from a stranger and then runs into the soul of Rick Flagg, whom Cap helps make it through the purging of the sin of sloth. They eventually make it to the top, where they find themselves in the Garden of Eden, where Flagg is reuinted with Karin Grace and Cap with Angela Randall Adam Eiling (long story). They are happy for a moment, before she tells him that he has to go back.

And so Cap meets the third and final incarnation of death, Green Lantern's old enemy Nekron.

In the following issue, Cap does battle with Nekron. Also, in a later issue, Cap meets the Black Racer yet again, and ends up fighting him too, although for a different reason. I'll be happy to post scans from both issues if people are interested.


(Post a new comment)


[info]kusonaga
2009-08-02 10:22 am UTC (link)
Wow, this looks really good. Captain Atom never really grabbed me, to be honest. Maybe I should see if I can pick some of his stuff up.

Oh, and could you expand on the Rick Flag and sin of sloth thing?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]richardak
2009-08-02 10:53 am UTC (link)
I can't recommend picking up some of his stuff too highly. I think he's one of the best superheroes ever written, and I think this series was phenomenal. That being said, while I'm still excited about his new back-up feature in Action Comics, the first installment left me cold.

Speaking of being left cold, in answer to your question, when Cap arrived on the level of Purgatory dedicated to the sin of sloth, he found Rick Flag already there, frozen solid. Cap initially didn't understand why they were there, as they had both led active lives in the military. Flag explained that it was not laziness, but rather complacency; in his case, all the men he had knowingly led to their deaths in suicide missions, all the lies he had told, all the injustices he had stood by and allowed to happen. In the end, Cap realized that the only way to be purged of sloth was not to allow themselves to be frozen into inactivity by the extreme cold, but rather to run, so as to generate warmth. Does that explain it?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]kusonaga
2009-08-02 09:10 pm UTC (link)
It does, thank you. Sounds awesome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]amazingman
2009-08-02 11:02 am UTC (link)
I'm with Richardak. The Captain Atom series still stands as one of the best overall comics series I've ever read. In fact, it's almost painful to read when you realize that nothing comes of it ever. It's fifty issues of sheer brilliance, and then the lead is reduced back into a walking (sometimes flying) military cliche and stereotype.

No one ever mentions his children, his courtship and marriage to a criminal he helped to redeem got tossed to the side of the road for no reason I can think of other than lazyness, it just HURTS.

But while you read it, it is amazing.

Plus, it gave us two things that truely stood out. 1.) You read it and you can see exactly why Nathanial Adams was originally going to be the Monarch. It's so perfect in it's execution it's insane. 2.) The series gave us General Wade Eilling. The most Magnificent Bastard in the DCU this side of Amanda Waller.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]btravage.livejournal.com
2009-08-02 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Was the Wildstorm series a disappointment?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amazingman, 2009-08-03 12:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amazingman, 2009-08-03 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-03 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amazingman, 2009-08-03 02:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amazingman, 2009-08-03 02:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 04:26 am UTC

[info]shanejayell
2009-08-02 11:39 am UTC (link)
Neil Gaiman pretty much disapproves of this story. It was written without consulting him and contradicts what he sees as the Endless verson of Death.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]endis_ni
2009-08-02 12:27 pm UTC (link)
Ah, that makes sense. There's a story with Death in featuring Urania Blackwell (buggered if I can remember the name of it, it's in the third Sandman trade) where Death very specifically explains that she's not merciful release or anything of the kind, she just is.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jlbarnett, 2009-08-02 01:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shanejayell, 2009-08-02 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-02 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nagaoka, 2009-08-03 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-08-02 10:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xandertarbert, 2009-08-02 01:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 01:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merseybeatler, 2009-08-02 01:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-02 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thanekos, 2009-08-02 04:21 pm UTC

[info]silicone_soul
2009-08-02 03:59 pm UTC (link)
For a bit of added irony, Greg Weisman's own version of Death in Gargoyles was closer to Death of the Endless than this.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 05:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]silicone_soul, 2009-08-02 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 05:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arilou_skiff, 2009-08-02 06:06 pm UTC

[info]merseybeatler
2009-08-02 01:26 pm UTC (link)
Zomg Death has crrrraaazy eyes! Although page 7 is kind of funny, I don't think Death would *share*.

(Reply to this)


[info]zordboy
2009-08-02 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. There's an old GL badguy who's a personification of death, and the GLs are currently fighting an army of zombies.

I'm not the only person who read that and went, "Hmmm...." am I?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]aegof.livejournal.com
2009-08-02 05:52 pm UTC (link)
You and the entire rest of the comic book reading internet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-02 07:08 pm UTC (link)
At SDCC, Johns was asked point blank if Necron would show up in BL. He said no.

It could be misdirection, though. I'd prefer that than "OMG, thayz know Capt Atom iz teh Monarchs, gotsta change dat kwik! I knowz, they'd nevah guess the Hawk, dude, yehz!"

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-02 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zordboy, 2009-08-02 11:42 pm UTC

[info]nagaoka
2009-08-02 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Is that Destiny at the bottom there?

(Reply to this)


[info]volksjager
2009-08-02 02:21 pm UTC (link)
I think the lesson here is ,if you want exclusive control of characters,don't make them elemental forces that are supposed to regulate the universe. Wouldn't that mean the must appear all over the place and in other book with other writers ?????????

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]icon_uk
2009-08-02 05:09 pm UTC (link)
Destiny was a already a pre-existing character in the DCU before Gaiman created the Endless.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]volksjager, 2009-08-02 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-08-02 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]volksjager, 2009-08-02 11:58 pm UTC

[info]blake_reitz
2009-08-02 02:53 pm UTC (link)
How far along was Sandman when this was published? I can't help but wonder if some of the odd characterization is in part due to her just not making much of an appearance yet.

It is really weird to put her in the same category as Nekron. I'm going to be keeping my eyes peeled for a black-ring weilding goth chick in Green Lantern group shots.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]aaron_bourque
2009-08-02 07:18 pm UTC (link)
The reaction Gaiman made appeared in issue 20. So it had to be that she simply hadn't appeared enough. Issue 20 marked her third appearance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]blake_reitz
2009-08-02 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Then again, of course the Death of the DCU is compassionate! Think of all the times she lets people off the hook!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]espanolbot
2009-08-02 05:10 pm UTC (link)
What about that Endless Nights story though, when she break into the court of a man who had made himself and his followers immortal, and she went and made them all age to death/narrated how they died in childbrith etc.?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-02 07:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]espanolbot, 2009-08-02 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aaron_bourque, 2009-08-02 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]interrobamf, 2009-08-03 12:52 am UTC

[info]interrobamf
2009-08-02 07:41 pm UTC (link)
I can't be the only guy whose mind went to a bad place when Death of the Endless said "the dark race itself".

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]merseybeatler
2009-08-02 08:36 pm UTC (link)
....Death is racist?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]espanolbot, 2009-08-02 08:39 pm UTC

[info]arbre_rieur
2009-08-02 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Here's Greg Weisman's take on his usage of Death of the Endless:

I love that it's called "infamous". I heard that Neil was pissed off about it. I feel NO GUILT. His own editor had the opportunity to comment on the script. Hell, she could have sent it to him for his comments. Had either she or he notified me with concerns, then of course I would have changed the script to address those concerns. But there was no comment until AFTER the thing was published. And then suddenly, I was "in trouble".

The one thing I do feel bad about is that Death was miscolored in the issue. But that was beyond my control. I never saw the color proofs.

Otherwise, I tried to be faithful, and even intentionally vague. Death never says what she is. Captain Atom guesses at her function and at her relationship to the other "death" figures (i.e. the Racer and Nekron). No one in the issue says that he guessed right. So even if what he said was completely off-base, there's still nothing in the issue that contradicts anything that was established about the Endless. At least not to my mind. One can always choose to believe that Captain Atom was simply wrong.

And if the problem is that she even appeared on the page with Nekron and the Racer, then I have no sympathy. Neil chose to set his characters in the DC Universe. He even absconded with Destiny . I have no problem with that. But it's a shared universe by definition. There were death concepts in it that pre-dated his.

Now, here's the thing. Neil and I have never met or spoken. I don't actually have any conflict with him, and I definitely don't want to generate one now. I'm a huge fan of Sandman. Heck, I don't know if he even remembers the issue at all. I don't know if he ever really had a problem with it. I just heard he did.

(So do I have a chip on my shoulder about it or what?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]neuhallidae
2009-08-02 09:54 pm UTC (link)
When was this written? Because if it's anywhere near recent, then yeah, I'd say that's a pretty fucking huge chip, considering Weisman's own opinions over the handling of the Gargoyles series, which also features characters absconded with from old literature and mythology. And then after that rant, he says he doesn't want to generate conflict? Classy.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]interrobamf, 2009-08-03 12:54 am UTC

[info]btravage.livejournal.com
2009-08-02 11:10 pm UTC (link)
"Dr. Manhattan/Captain Atom is pretty much walking proof of the existence of the soul" The only thing Dr. Manhattan is walking proof of is that a consiousness can survive being thrown into the 4th dimension or whatever. I wouldn't say that necessarily means that it was his soul that servived.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]richardak
2009-08-03 12:59 am UTC (link)
It wasn't being thrown into the fourth dimension and it wasn't whatever. His physical body was destroyed. That's explicit in the text. So he's proof that consciousness can survive the total destruction of the physical body housing that consciousness. That's a pretty good working definition of an immortal soul.

You actually might have a better argument with the iron age Bates/Weisman Cap than with the Silver Age Gill/Ditko version or with Dr. Manhattan, since there is the implication (incorrect in my view) with the Bates/Weisman version that he was just catapulted into the future, not atomized. Except then you have stories like this.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ashtoreth, 2009-08-03 01:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]btravage.livejournal.com, 2009-08-03 03:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]galateus, 2009-08-03 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]richardak, 2009-08-03 09:44 pm UTC


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