Tweak

InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Voices carry"

superfan1 (superfan1) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-12 02:52:00

Entry tags:

char: alfred pennyworth, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, char: superman/clark kent, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, creator: ed benes, creator: judd winick, title: batman

Batman #687
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(Post a new comment)

	aaron_bourque 2009-06-12 03:32 am UTC (link)
	Durr, Batman made plans?!? This is a total shurprishe to me. (Reply to this)

icon_uk
2009-06-12 03:57 am UTC (link)

Nightwing - "So you LOST the Batcostume... and then you found it... is it a bad time to ask what you did with the skeleton that was INSIDE the costume?"

Superman - "Well, I wanted SOME sort of memorial for the Fortress of Solitude"

And yes Superman, that is both extremely abrupt and rather tacky of you to ask that right then.

Clearly the Damian that Alfred sees is completely different from the Damian that everyone else sees, to the extent that I have to imagine him having some sort of hallucinatory event every time he looks at the little shit.

Oh, and who's the "them" in the last panel? The bats?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

stig
2009-06-12 09:40 am UTC (link)

Mahnke has stated that there's a clue to what happened to Bruce in the cowl of the costume Superman is holding when he gets the body in FC; I for one believe that the difference is in the lack of white lenses on the costume drawn by Mahnke as compared to that which Batman was killed in.

Add that to the fact that Supes is handing over a cowl with intact eyelenses, no visible damage, and black rather than blue...and you may begin to smell a rat. What does Kal know, that we don't?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

unknownscribler, 2009-06-13 06:08 am UTC

runespoor7
2009-06-12 04:35 pm UTC (link)

I read Clark's question as an expression of how lost he is. Batman has a plan, Batman always has a plan, and Clark needs to hear it so he knows what to do next. Because no matter how awful you feel when someone you cares about dies, the world doesn't stop. Yeah, I know this is the most hackneyed, obnoxious possible way to state the thing, I'm sorry I can't find a better way to phrase it.

Clark's not dealing with Bruce's death well at all in this scene. He's incredibly awkward. Compare his question to Alfred, for all that it's asked out of genuine concern but terribly worded, to Diana's equilibrium.

Someone who knows Superman's character better than I do could say how likely or otherwise a reaction all of this scene is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

jlroberson
2009-06-12 04:23 am UTC (link)

I'm liking the direction this is taken. Having just read BATMAN & ROBIN(and if someone else doesn't get to it I'll post some pages once I'm less busy) and thoroughly enjoyed it, I will say that this was a step that, even temporarily, had to be taken.

Why? Because Bruce Wayne was about as played out as it could get. There's only so much you can push Wayne's psychotic torment before you end up with nothing left to say about it except "MY PARENTS ARE DEAD"punch. And if that's all there ends up being to Batman, being a superhero is no longer really what he is. If you set up a character like that in any other medium--or in comics not designed to last forever--then ultimately there has to be an end, a conclusion. Otherwise it's writers just being sadistic to a character and you have to wonder, after a while, as to the point. This wasn't the case before Miller; pre-Crisis Batman was tormented but balanced. But afterward, the examination and critique Miller brought to the fore in DKR was obviously what the fans wanted, so DC, never one to miss a buck, obliged. But having deconstructed and debased that Batman, what do you do then? Eventually he crosses the line from tragic to pathetic. So what Morrison did with him, for all its missteps, was necessary, even if it's not necessarily the end one might have liked to see.

And B&R is FUN. And Dick has a moment in the book where he scares a crook, but rather than the "I am king of hell" way Bruce would have done it, he does it in, well, a Robin way. With a sense of malicious glee.
Am I wrong in saying there seems to be a little Spider-Man in this approach?(and is there anyone who draws clothing the way it really looks on people better than Quitely? Check out that glove)and I have to say, fuck it, I'll post a few bits I happen to have handy--I like this:

Also: GODDAMN FLYING BATMOBILE.

Oh yes.

YES.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

evah_k
2009-06-12 06:03 am UTC (link)

If you just look at the pathetic soap opera the Batman books have degenerated into in the last six or seven years you might even be right.
I´ve been reading Batman for over 30 years now, and to me, the stories and, above all, the character never got old. They used to be about a man fighting crime and injustice, and provided the reader with a look at society on one hand and the sometimes strange and tragic fates of individuals, costumed and civilian, on the other. You´d think a changing world around us, new conflicts, social issues, a new self-awareness, hell, even new types of crime! would inspire writers to look at the world through a human hero´s eyes.
But obviously nobody can be arsed with this kind of reflexion of reality anymore, so we get more inbred navel-gazing in one book and fairy-tale randomness in the other.

On another note, where does all this "my parents are dead" nonsense come from? It´s not as if the storylines even addressed this issue, it´s not as if you could see Batman wailing about it anywhere. Seems to me more the kind of stereotype and annoying oh-so-funny remark typical for the internet.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 06:47 am UTC

besamim, 2009-06-12 07:02 am UTC

evah_k, 2009-06-12 07:20 am UTC

jlroberson, 2009-06-12 07:49 am UTC

evah_k, 2009-06-12 09:13 am UTC

jlroberson, 2009-06-12 03:52 pm UTC

evah_k, 2009-06-13 12:42 pm UTC

jlroberson, 2009-06-13 06:50 pm UTC

evah_k, 2009-06-14 02:02 pm UTC

sistermagpie, 2009-06-12 08:40 am UTC

brandiweed.livejournal.com, 2009-06-12 09:49 am UTC

jlroberson, 2009-06-12 05:52 pm UTC

besamim
2009-06-12 07:04 am UTC (link)

pre-Crisis Batman was tormented but balanced. But afterward, the examination and critique Miller brought to the fore in DKR was obviously what the fans wanted, so DC, never one to miss a buck, obliged. But having deconstructed and debased that Batman, what do you do then? Eventually he crosses the line from tragic to pathetic. So what Morrison did with him, for all its missteps, was necessary, even if it's not necessarily the end one might have liked to see.

Except that, as you noted in your first paragraph, this "end" is only temporary. Bruce Wayne will return as Batman. So the question remains, when he does return will his writers (and editors) portray him as noble and balanced rather than brooding, assholish and pathetic? That's what we were promised after Infinite Crisis ("I won't be going alone"), and look how consistently that played out. Can DC collectively allow the returned Bruce Wayne to be--despite the lingering memory of his parents' death--stable and trusting? If not, if he's going to be all "I must spy on everyone and snap and growl at my Bat-family and develop detailed plans to kill my allies on the miniscule chance they'll go bad"...well, then DC may as well just leave him in that prehistoric cave forever.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jlbarnett, 2009-06-12 05:32 pm UTC

xlineartx
2009-06-12 12:48 pm UTC (link)

One of my biggest industry pet peeves is how they kill characters off instead of doing something new with them. It's lazy writing and it makes for useless comic book death-and-resurrection arcs that I really can't stand.

And I don't know about Morrison's run, since I've been avoiding it like the plague, but I think Paul Dini's run on Detective Comics had a really well-rounded, emotionally mature Bruce. I also think Bruce Wayne is too iconic of a Batman to turn the character into a legacy. It just alienates non-fans.

Also, Damian is a snotty Mary Sue. I'd read a Dick Grayson/Tim Drake Batman and Robin, or a Dick Grayson/Stephanie Brown, or a Dick Grayson/pretty much anyone else run, but I'm boycotting this whole Damian thing on principle.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	hammster.livejournal.com 2009-06-12 04:23 am UTC (link)
	I reeaaaallllly like the art in this. And I like that it seems to address the mourning process, which has seemed... stilted at best, in other places. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2009-06-12 05:29 am UTC (link)
	This is a bit late in coming. Three months ago it would have really moved me, but we had to have that Squabble for the Cowl BS first, evidently. And I still don´t buy into the idea of Alfred being a "father" to Bruce. He had a father, one he loved and revered almost religiously. It´s, like, the whole point of his origin story, folks. -evah (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gargoylekitty 2009-06-12 09:59 am UTC (link)
	Alfred cared for Bruce for the majority of his life. Alfred is as much Bruce's father as the man who died in that ally. Hell, Thomas Wayne is more, as you said, a religious-like figure in Bruce's life than anything. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

darklorelei, 2009-06-12 12:41 pm UTC

	xlineartx 2009-06-12 01:26 pm UTC (link)
	I refer you to this. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sakura_yuy 2009-06-12 05:58 am UTC (link)
	Ok, I feel pretty bad considering this was supposed to be an emotional moment and all. But all I could think while reading those pages was "wow, Nightwing is SO pretty!" Anyone else? (Reply to this) (Thread)

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 06:16 am UTC

sakura_yuy, 2009-06-12 06:30 am UTC

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 06:44 am UTC

lyraeinne, 2009-06-12 08:54 am UTC

cmdr_zoom, 2009-06-12 10:03 am UTC

tanetris, 2009-06-12 10:24 am UTC

sakura_yuy, 2009-06-12 11:30 am UTC

foxhack, 2009-06-12 10:19 am UTC

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 10:32 am UTC

scottyquick, 2009-06-12 06:58 pm UTC

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 07:17 pm UTC

sakura_yuy, 2009-06-12 11:29 am UTC

	04nbod 2009-06-12 07:25 am UTC (link)
	This may be a bad time but thats one pretty pretty Nightwing. (Reply to this)

jupiterrhode
2009-06-12 08:32 am UTC (link)

What is with people coloring Diana's bracelets gold recently? They're SILVER goddamn it.

Also, in that moment of silence for Alfred, it's a nice change to see Diana all tense and muscly with Dick's ass towards the reader. From what I hear, Nightwing gets treated more "female" in art than other characters, but still. Usually it would be the woman with her ass out like that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

gargoylekitty, 2009-06-12 10:04 am UTC

lyraeinne
2009-06-12 08:50 am UTC (link)

I have to say I really, really loved this issue. So much of the energy in the Batverse has been going into the inevitable costume switch thus far, so much so that the few tiny moments we did get of the Batfamily in mourning have really felt a little muted and forced, at least to me. I mean, we’ve seen Dick crying and Tim being distant and Alfred struggling, but it’s all seemed like an afterthought against a backdrop of all the practical issues of Gotham going to pieces. I think this is really the first story in which I actually felt the absence of Bruce and not just Batman.

I also liked the expansion of Battle for the Cowl’s justification for Dick not wanting to be Batman, which always felt a little overly simplistic to me. A story about Dick taking Bruce’s costume should really be a story about Bruce and Dick, and here we actually get to see a struggle that has more to do with Dick missing someone he loved and not being ready to let him go in spite of how mostly rational and practical he’s been when discussing it with Tim. Again, it’s something we’ve seen bits of before, but I felt like we needed more of an emotionally centered explanation for the turn around for it to really make sense for Dick.

But... now I really want to know what did happen to the skeleton. What exactly are they planning on doing with it if not burying it in the ground? Unless I'm missing something important, of course. [/morbid curiosity]

And the art is gorgeous, of course. The man tears in particular are kind of breathtaking.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

runespoor7, 2009-06-12 01:27 pm UTC

lyraeinne, 2009-06-12 01:52 pm UTC

	tanetris 2009-06-12 08:52 am UTC (link)
	"Am I 'all right'? pause No, sir. I am not. My son has died." is perfect Alfred. (Reply to this) (Thread)

taggerung301, 2009-06-12 08:55 am UTC

endis_ni, 2009-06-12 09:34 am UTC

	kagome654 2009-06-12 09:06 am UTC (link)
	Alfred ;__; (Reply to this)

	yaseen101 2009-06-12 09:46 am UTC (link)
	Loved this issue and this is the first time I've seen people compliment Ed Benes on his artwork. (Reply to this) (Thread)

perletwo, 2009-06-12 10:53 am UTC

yaseen101, 2009-06-12 01:01 pm UTC

	cmdr_zoom 2009-06-12 10:12 am UTC (link)
	So, can someone who remembers (better than I) the last time this circus was in town remind me: about how far through the Death and Return of ~~Superman~~ Batman are we right now? (Reply to this) (Thread)

thandrak, 2009-06-12 10:43 am UTC

	sherkahn 2009-06-12 12:39 pm UTC (link)
	Where's Bat-Mite in all this? (Reply to this) (Thread)

pyrotwilight, 2009-06-12 12:45 pm UTC

sherkahn, 2009-06-12 01:08 pm UTC

icon_uk, 2009-06-12 07:19 pm UTC

xlineartx, 2009-06-12 01:45 pm UTC

liarashadowsong, 2009-06-12 02:43 pm UTC

shadowvalkyrie, 2009-06-12 04:31 pm UTC

	freddylloyd 2009-06-12 02:51 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think DC was well served by the order in which the company released its after-Bruce books. People complain about abruptness, lack of explanation in Battle for the Cowl, Batman and Robin, and Red Robin—and here's a lot of explanation. Perhaps a collection will sort these out into proper order. (Reply to this)

	lencannon 2009-06-12 03:07 pm UTC (link)
	Alfred was nice in this, but I don't care. The current Batman line seems incredibly redundant to me, since Batman and Robin is clearly the headline book for the Bat titles right now and this is just going to be playing around. Detective Comics is probably going to be the best out of the side books, I think. I'm terrified but cautiously optimistic about Gotham City Sirens as well. (Reply to this)

shadowvalkyrie
2009-06-12 04:28 pm UTC (link)

Huh, this is almost nice.

The art fluctuates wildly between really good and really weird from panel to panel, but there's been worse, so I'm not complaining. Even if such blatantly sexualised art in a mourning scene seems a little off.

I like how we're actually getting some emotions other than overblown collective bitchfest here -- I'd just be more moved by Dick and Alfred's grief if we had any reason to believe Bruce was actually dead.

If in fact there is such a thing as a conspiracy under way, with Clark and Diana knowing more than they're saying... Well, that'd be ten kinds of nasty. If it's true, they'd better have a REALLY good reason or I call characterisation bullshit. (Yet again. *sigh*)

It would also be better to have Tim there than Damian, but I think we've settled that I'm not the only one who hates that little shit so much by now that even a mention of his name automatically makes my feet twitch, so it probably goes without saying.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

shadeedge, 2009-06-12 04:50 pm UTC

darkknightjrk, 2009-06-13 01:39 am UTC

shadowvalkyrie, 2009-06-13 03:32 am UTC

	mysteryfan 2009-06-13 09:04 am UTC (link)
	This looks really good! Picking it up today and looking forward to it. ... Under it all there was just flesh, blood and bone. And a man who never feared deat. You know as well as I do he was frightened of a great many things, but his own mortality barely made the top hundred list with him. That whole page...Wow! (Reply to this)