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majingojira ([info]majingojira) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-26 00:20:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: godzilla, char: j. jonah jameson jr., creator: grant morrison, publisher: dc comics, publisher: marvel comics, title: final crisis aftermath dance

Rambling on Grant Morrison's Japanese Heroes

Crossposted from NoScans_Daily. 

With the publication of Final Crisis Aftermath: Dance, some more of the wackiness regarding the Super Young Team of Japanese-Wannabe-American Heroes has risen through the internet.

I thought I'd add to the kafuffle with an unorganized generally off the cuff reaction to this.


 

To preface, I am a media student who happens to like cultural relativism and supernatural/human settings. My favorite films come from 3 different countries (Japan, United States and Yugoslavia). My knowledge of Japan is pretty good, but I'd be an idiot to say I could survive there without a translator.

So, without further dismay and warning off, here are my thoughts.

There are several key concepts that appear to be behind Morrison's Super Young Team.

1) They are Japanese kids who are obsessed with an Aspect of American Culture (Super-Heroics)
2) They are apparently being treated as a J-Pop Idol: Quickly Disposable.

The thing is, these concepts are in line with Japanese culture.

Despite how Americans are portrayed in their media (IN AMERICA), they do take a lot of our pop culture in (Hence the phrase "We're big in Japan"). They are often quick to rally behind a concept or person (often called "Instant Fanclubs") and take things in really frakin weird directions (Cobra Ice Cream? Mayonnaise Bars?). That's exactly what the Super Young Team is doing. However, direct copying is something else.

I guess you might call them the Dojinshi of Superheroes.

The second aspect is present in Japanese Heroics as well. The idea of a hero falling and a legacy taking his place and continuing on is one that permeates their media. With Mecha shows, it is often with an Upgrade or New Mech. Other times, the hero is outright killed and replaced (Kamen Rider). Still other times, the hero is forced to return home and replaced by a new one (Ultraman).

Hatori Hanzo, made famous by Kill Bill, is noted in that he is always the son of Hatori Hanzo--and all Hatori Hanzos are played by the same actor.

Heroes growing old and being replaced sneaks into the culture as well in the oddest places. J-Pop Idols is one of the best known places for this to happen, where the industry uses young girls as face singers and then discards them after a certain period of time (akin to American Idol, really). Actors in Japan have this too if they become "Too Famous" (as being an Attention Whore in Japan is considered morally wrong), which is why many turn to Voice Acting.

The concept of "Christmas Cake" is another example of this. The concept basically means that an unwed woman over the age of 25 is unwanted by single men. Many anime series have "Christmas Cake" characters who (for comedy) lament their status.

So if its all in line with Japanese culture, why is it pissing off so many fanboys and fangirls?

Here, there are also 2 reasons:
1) The deluge of Anime and Manga in the American market has shown the audience how Japan views its own heroic characters.
2) How Japan actually functions militarily.

I'll answer #2 first, as it’s shorter.

Japanese Gun Laws are among the strictest on the planet. The police usually carry a baton and a 5 shot snub-nosed revolver at the most. Only SWAT has access to heavier weapons.

These laws developed from the Sword Laws of older times. This has lead to a rather strange market in Japan for hyper-realistic model guns and air-soft guns for people who still enjoy guns. That and the paperwork to get even the simplest hunting rifle is pretty damn tough from what I understand).

What does this mean? It means that in the advent of Super-humans, the Japanese Police and the JSDF would be getting them registered almost as soon as they appeared. Because of their desire for cultural conformity, they would accept it quite easily in all probability.

In fact, many early heroes in both film, literature and manga worked this into their story. Super Giant--the first Japanese hero put to celluloid, worked with the police almost exclusively. So did Tetsuwan Atom (Astro Boy), and Gigantor/Tetsujin-28's controller often worked for the UN. Ultramen (though often keeping a secret identity) worked for an agency (always changing its gorram name) that fought the monsters and aliens that appeared on earth--which Ultraman was sent to help with.

Many heroes, however, were also rebellious people fighting secret wars--if only for a time. And there are a fair share of "Evil Bureaucracies" that heroes find themselves entangled in as well.

Japanese Heroics and Superhumans have a rich history--second only to the States in terms of output, possibly surpassing them even.

Which brings us to the first problem: that American Audiences expect to see Japanese Heroes similar to what the Japanese have presented for themselves.

But how does it compare, really?

There are very few direct corollaries between Japanese and Western Heroes. There is no Spider-Man for Japan (though there was a Japanese Spider-Man which more or less proves the reality of the Super Young Team by itself), nor is there a Nanoha for America. However, many heroes do seem to fit the Green Lantern motif (alien space cop on earth).

These Archetypes include:

The Robot or Cyborg -- Heroes that gain their powers from Machines in their bodies or by being machines. Examples of note include Kikaider and Astro Boy.

The Mecha Pilot -- A human who pilots a giant robot or anthropoid armored vehicle for their heroics. Can be sub-divided into 3 categories: Real Robots (where robots are just machines and tools); Super Robots (in which they might as well be a Superhuman's Super Suit); God Robots (where the robot is a mysterious being unto itself). Examples include:
Real Robots: the Gundam Franchize, Code Geass, Patlabor.
Super Robots: Mazinger franchize, Getter Robo franchize, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
God Robots: RahXephon, Neon Genesis Evangelion (which is sort of the Watchmen of Anime*), Space Runaway Ideon

The Magical Girl -- A girl with Magical Powers which she uses for the Benifit of others...usually. Has the subgroup of Magical Warrior which is far more of a Super heroine than many magical girls.
Magical Girls: Sally the Witch, Cardcaptor Sakura, Kiki's Delivery Service
Magical Warrior: Cutey Honey (who really gave these girls their nearly-nude transformation sequences), Sailor Moon (which is liberally sprinkled with Sentai concepts), Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
franchise (which is essentially "Magical Girls as Super Robots" by series 2)

The Sentai - Literally, "Task Force". Best known via "Power Rangers." Over 40 years strong with dozens of examples, I think it's well known enough to stand without examples. The point is, they're a team and use teamwork maneuvers to defeat enemies. Who usually explode when they die--for some reason.

Henshin Hero - Henshin translates as "Transform" and Henshin Heroes use an item or power word to change from one form into another superhuman one. Examples include the Kamen Rider franchize, the various "Metal Heroes" (which were a minor, now dead subgenre), Guyver, the Ultraman franchise, and even Japan's first Super Hero Space Giant did this. If you stretch it a bit, Go Nagai's Devilman could also count as such a hero (as he does have two forms).

The Fighter - the Shoenen Staple. A hero whose chosen form of combat is slowly honed through hellish training to defeat his foes and rivals (who often become friends at the end of it all). Doesn't matter if that form of combat is battling monsters/Children’s Card Games, Kung Fu or baking bread, it's always SERIOUS BUISNESS. This type really shows most Shoenen Manga's roots as Sports Comics (whereas western heroes developed from Detectives). Examples include Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, Mahou Sensei Negima in the "Fighting with Martial Arts" category alone. It's extremly popular here in the west.

The Heroic Bleeder - Frankly, this is adopted from the Chinese in the 70s, but has become rather ubiquitous in many anime series. A sort of modern Noir with lots and lots (and lots) of gunplay, often (but not always) with clear cut heroes and villains who all use guns in epic duels. Girls feature prominently as heroes in these. Examples include Grenaider, Cowboy Bebop and Black Lagoon.

(I'd mention
Phantom Thieves, but they're ubiquitous worldwide. Nor will I mention Unwanted Harem, Gaming Anime, Hentai, Magical Girlfriend stories as--while they may contain heroics and heroic characters, those aren't really the point now are they?)

There are Heroes that do not fit these archetypes, but these are the most common iterations.

The Super Young Team contains NONE of these established archetypes. That's probably why people are complaining so much about them. We know what heroes from Japan look like since the mass introduction of many of these characters into the comic-reader's literally consciousness. It creates a preconceived notion of what they're "supposed" to be. And things that deviate from expectations and 'normalcy" are rarely met well by fans. We aren’t the nicest bunch when it comes to change, afterall.

Furthermore, the heroes that do pay homage to these older archetypes, Big Science Action, are a sign that Morrison did do some research (or just remembered things from his childhood). It contained many of the archetypes here, and blatant shout outs to others.

But no magical girls and only a single mecha, two of the more popular forms…

Finally, the linear notes in
Final Crisis Sketch Book reveal another part of the problem:

"
Together in the ruins of Tokyo, young Dai Yokohama and his master fought the three COLONIZERS (all the monsters we see him fight look like "real" versions of POKEMON creatures, as if nature had actually created Pokemon horrors to run around causing real devastation):"

...

My second major fandom was Godzilla. Still is one of my main fandoms. I've written a lot about Godzilla in relation to Japanese culture, the symbolism of Kaiju and why they are truly distinct from monsters created from different cultures.

In Shinto belief, there is a concept which roughly means that each and every thing--object, living thing, geological feature, place, etc. has a spirit to it. The bigger these things are, the more powerful they are. It ranges from ghosts and goblins to outright gods. Kaiju, in essence, were minor gods of destruction and had that level of power and respect behind them. From Grant Morrison's rough description of his Colonizers, we can generally get that he doesn't understand that the monsters are not just beasts. Pokemon itself is actually very good with this, having many of the more powerful Pokemon be rare, hidden beings of great power which get respect for that power.

Here, Pokemon is used as a derogatory, to describe characters that are "cutesy" and childish. The concept of Kawaii is pretty big in Japanese culture and doesn't have the negative connotations that its direct translation (cute) does in the west.

If he doesn't get a hero's adversary and misses something huge within Japanese culture, is it any wonder that there's a hollow sound to the creations for that nation he puts forth?

To quote the opening scene from the finale of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

Anti-Spiral: Your actions are baffling, irregular. Why do you resist us so? You were a virtual life form that was spliced into the genome of the spiral race. When the remnants of that spiral race rose up in rebellion against us, you would be awakened and become our messenger. THAT is your reason for being. The fact that you were born to and loved by a spiral warrior is nothing more than a coincidence. There is nothing special or unique about you. It is quite a rare thing for a messenger to be this recalcitrant. The reason behind your defiance, and the reason behind their obstinace--determining those could give us the key to destroying all spiral life forms.
Nia: No matter how deeply you probe my body, you will never understand!
Anti-Spiral: We have no need to understand. We only need to know.
Nia: Then you may as well give up, because you will never be able to defeat them. He will come, you can be sure of that!

I am now picturing Grant Morrison as the Anti-Spiral. And that's terrible. He knows, but does not appaer to understand the culture he is writing about, which is part of the source for the general misgiving these characters exude.


But those are my thoughts on the situation.

And, for Legality, a Japanese character who got better treatment, and J. Johna Jameson.


Photobucket
Photobucket

* Regardless of the percieved quality, its effect on other series within the same medium let alone the same genre is generally on the same level and both are deconstructive works of older story forms. The comparison holds even if the quality does not quite.
Edited for Correction.


(Post a new comment)

I feel like being mean to Morrison, so...
[info]sailorlibra
2009-05-25 11:39 pm UTC (link)
So, basically, there are thousands of yaoi fangirls out there who could write a more realistic story about Japanese superheroes? Huh.

Great post, though. SD is always great for my geek education. :]

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I feel like being mean to Morrison, so...
[info]jarodrussell
2009-05-26 11:22 am UTC (link)
When Adam Warren needed a manga scene in Empowered, he turned to a yaoi artist. I think that answers your question right there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mullon
2009-05-25 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Wait a minute, this is just that same thing that was posted in no_scans daily.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]majingojira
2009-05-26 12:00 am UTC (link)
Yes. I warned you about it at the very top. First line infact.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mullon, 2009-05-26 11:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 11:39 am UTC

[info]suzene
2009-05-26 01:06 am UTC (link)
And?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jarodrussell
2009-05-26 11:25 am UTC (link)
And I, for one, am glad. I don't check noscans_daily every week, and I'd have missed this otherwise.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]filbypott, 2009-05-26 01:34 pm UTC

[info]interrobamf
2009-05-25 11:51 pm UTC (link)
But no mecha nor magical girls, two of the more popular forms…

Hammersuit Zero-X is mecha.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]majingojira
2009-05-26 12:00 am UTC (link)
I stand Corrected. But given the variety of Mecha in Japan, the precense of only a single one does make it seem underrepresented.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]arbre_rieur
2009-05-26 12:22 am UTC (link)
"The Super Young Team contains NONE of these established archetypes."

Is this really a problem, though? These character types are, well, fictional. There's no reason they can't also be fictional within DC's superhero universe. If an American vampire series shifted scenes to China, most people wouldn't find anything unusual if the Chinese vampires were depicted as your standard vampires instead of the creepy paper-to-the-forehead Asian variety. Just because one kind of fictional being is being portrayed as real doesn't mean another needs to be as well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kamino_neko
2009-05-26 01:00 am UTC (link)
I see you made the same point I was making much more concisely while I was rambling on.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]majingojira
2009-05-26 08:30 am UTC (link)
It is to many fans, given their exposure to the Japanese' output (which Matches or Surpasses the United State's output).

China is an interesting case, actually, as it has a riuch mythology but of late little has been constructed in regards to heroes that I can find.

And I do find your example annoying actually as it takes one precept of mythology from one group and uses it as the truth while unintentionally being dismissive of other cultures unless they tread very carefully.

IE: The vampires in question are effected by the Chinese sticky-charms as their legends hold, but remain from their country of origin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]vignettelante
2009-05-26 12:22 am UTC (link)
Excellent essay.

I think Grant Morrison should have made a hero based on Lelouch/Zero. I was going to try to explain this, but really, offering anything other than my fanboyism as justification would have been dishonest.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]majingojira
2009-05-26 08:32 am UTC (link)
If I didn't lose time for sleep when constructing this, I would have used Zero as a possible analogue for certain American antagonists.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Noirsensei says:
(Anonymous)
2009-05-26 12:57 am UTC (link)
Great essay, and it does a great job of highlighting what has upset Western-but-J-savvy fans about the Super Young Team.

I'm not sure I agree that those fans are right to be upset, though.

I kinda see the SYT unintended as very 'Japanese' heroes, but rather as Japanese heroes who are attempting to riff on Western heroes in the proud Japanese tradition of 'doing it wrong.'

What, exactly, is wrong with that? If that is the case, it's pretty refreshing. Let me rap a bit, here:

I live in Taiwan. Over here there's a great deal of cultural drip-down from Japan. I've visited Japan, too... but I'm not from there, despite my experience with the place... so no worries. I'm not going to claim I know what the Japanese would do. All the same, I'm knee deep in their influence and pop-culture.

Anyway, there are tons of things on this side of the globe that emblazon themselves proudly with Western logos or stylings over half-baked products or ideas. It's a new tradition in and of itself, practically. Let me think of a few things I've seen recently...

- BATMAN, the slot parlor.
- A T-shirt with Hitler dressed as Ronald McDonald.
- "American STYLE" sweet and sour chicken burger.
- A computer company using one of Alex Ross' iconic superman paintings with their logo over the S.
- A hip-hop clothing store called 'NIGGER KING' (They've since changed their name after a lawsuit, but they still sell the old merch. I have a Nigger King hat, and a nice chat with the owner, a young Taiwanese guy. He said that Taiwan didn't get the word until rap music, and to them, that's all it evokes. It's a "cool" word rappers say.)

Of course, there are a few well-known internet examples of this as well.

- Watchmen-tan
- Bishi Bruce and Clark
- And you touched upon that yourself with a mention of motorcycle riding, kaiju battling, Planet Supaidaa hailing Toho Spider-Man, then veered off in another direction.

I'm thinking the Super Young Team is less attempting to say "This is EXACTLY how Japan thinks superheroes should be." but more "This is probably how Japan thinks Western superheroes could be [sold] to the Japanese market."

I hear what you're saying, but I think we're holding different pieces of the puzzle, here.

Also -- it's Morrison. The guy doesn't craft ideas. He crafts vague suggestions that allow someone to reach an idea if they're on the same wavelength as he is. So I'll go out on a limb, a bit.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Noirsensei says:
[info]majingojira
2009-05-26 08:38 am UTC (link)
In the essay, I did not mean to say that the concept itself was bad--I simply found it poorly executed.

Also we get an idea of how Japan sells heroes a bit better from the Japanese Watchmen Trailer, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WNETpX2Jd0

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: Noirsensei says: - (Anonymous), 2009-05-26 12:20 pm UTC
Re: Noirsensei says: - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 12:33 pm UTC

[info]kamino_neko
2009-05-26 12:59 am UTC (link)
Of course, there's a rather obvious problem with using superheroes in real world Japanese media as a model, here.

That being that the DCU isn't an anime/Tokusatsu universe.

It's a world where real superpowered beings already exist, and don't exist under the rather restricted rules that exist in, say, the Super Sentai multiverse.

In a world where superheroes are a real presence, rather than a relatively minor aspect of US pop culture, superheroics in Japan would develop very differently than the pop culture depiction of same did in the real world.

When Superman's in the news every day, when the only reason Green Lantern wasn't instrumental with the Allies winning WWII was because the Germans had a magic weapon which counteracted the American heroes... When a certain percentage of your own people can fly or freeze people with a thought, just because they got stuck in the supermarket cooler one night... Henshin teams are not going to be that common compared to the cape and cowl crowd.

Given a larger look at the Japanese heroic community, I'd expect to see more heroes that fit in with what we see in anime, manga, and tokusatsu, but I would also expect to see teams like the SYT.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]arbre_rieur
2009-05-26 01:02 am UTC (link)
"Of course, there's a rather obvious problem with using superheroes in real world Japanese media as a model, here.

That being that the DCU isn't an anime/Tokusatsu universe."

Well said. This is pretty much what I was trying to get at in my comment above.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bluefall
2009-05-26 01:48 am UTC (link)
Problem is, this team clearly is meant to play as a Japanese spin on DC superheroics. Hence the temporary, Idol concept, the use of (not particularly accurate-sounding) literal word-for-word translation superhero names instead of the more organic translation you get with other non-American heroes, the general trappings of "that anime/manga stuff" that's visible here. Someone at noS_D said there was a bit of an Uncanny Valley effect happening and I think that's right on - this is not, as you attest, superheroics in Japan developing very differently than the pop culture depiction of same did in the real world, this is an attempt to project DCU superheroes through a modern Japanese pop cultural lens. It's just close enough that you can tell they're trying, and just far enough off that it doesn't quite mesh.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 03:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 01:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 02:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 06:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 06:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 02:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-27 06:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brianwilly, 2009-05-26 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arrlaari.livejournal.com, 2009-05-26 05:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-05-26 11:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-27 07:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schmevil, 2009-05-26 09:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-05-26 11:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brianwilly, 2009-05-26 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 05:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 06:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 07:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 08:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 08:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 08:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 08:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 08:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 12:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 08:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 08:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 08:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 09:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]icon_uk, 2009-05-26 09:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-27 08:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadeedge, 2009-05-26 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 07:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadeedge, 2009-05-26 10:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 12:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 01:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brianwilly, 2009-05-26 02:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 03:00 pm UTC
Re: Stupid length limit. - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 03:00 pm UTC
Re: Stupid length limit. - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]timgueguen, 2009-05-27 02:43 am UTC
Stupid length limit. - [info]kamino_neko, 2009-05-26 01:46 pm UTC
Re: Stupid length limit. - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 02:31 pm UTC

[info]randyripoff
2009-05-26 01:55 am UTC (link)
Hmm...

I think I didn't like it because I thought it was written poorly. There's something of a story there, but the "heroes" are uninteresting and we've seen this done better with both The Authority and X-Force/X-Statix.

Well, okay, I can't speak for anyone else, but that is my opinion.

(Reply to this)


[info]greenmask
2009-05-26 02:13 am UTC (link)
P.S, small question: which is the one held to be of higher quality, Evangelion or Watchmen? People get so particular about both.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 08:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thokstar, 2009-05-26 09:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 09:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-05-26 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-05-26 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rdfox, 2009-05-26 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]filbypott, 2009-05-26 02:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brianwilly, 2009-05-26 03:10 pm UTC
Finally, an excuse to use my Tohji icon! - [info]felinephoenix, 2009-05-26 03:15 pm UTC
Re: Finally, an excuse to use my Tohji icon! - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-27 07:00 am UTC

[info]brianwilly
2009-05-26 03:07 am UTC (link)
As a two-decades-long fan of manga, anime, and tokusatsu, I have to say that this is a great article. I often find myself defending Grant Morrison onto the ends of the internets, but when I first saw the concept art for the Super Young Team, my very first thought was "These aren't Japanese superheroes at all. These guys are thoroughly western. Hell, not just that, but they're thoroughly American." You can see many traces of that in The Great Ten as well, which I believe Morrison also created. It's just borderline Eurocentric. I got annoyed at this throughout the Heroes TV show as well, wherein Hiro -- who's lived in Japan all his life -- is for some reason an avid fan of Kitty Pryde and Hulk but doesn't seem to have any opinion whatsoever of his own country's icons.

On the other hand, I very much agree with some posters above that, in the DCU, culture and media and fandom would have all evolved much differently than how they have in our world, due to the very real existence of the flying, spandex-clad mystery people throughout in the 20th Century in most corners of the world. This is not a world of mecha pilots, this is a world of 'roided men in capes and masks. Liveman doesn't save the universe, the Justice League does.

On the other other hand, I myself find that a rather disappointing justification. It makes this corner of the DCU seem kind of shallow instead of the genre-melting-pot that the DCU should be. What the heck is the point of making such a big deal, "Lookit my Japanese superheroes! They're so new and interesting, they're Japanese!!" when they are, in fact, just the same old stuff except you're trying to imbue it with your bare-surface understanding of the culture? Part of the reason I love superheroes so much is because of what they show us about how we see ourselves. The commentary and the metaphor and the nuances. This, though? This commentary and this metaphor just kinda falls flat, largely in part due to lack of research, and I would say that's very rare for Grant Morrison but for the fact that I'm pretty sure I've just now officially thought more about the the topic than he ever did.

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(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 06:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-26 06:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mr_terrific, 2009-05-26 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greenmask, 2009-05-27 06:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 08:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ventoaureo, 2009-05-29 10:29 pm UTC

[info]warpedhand
2009-05-26 06:54 am UTC (link)
I'm wondering where the idea that Western cape and cowl heroes and Japanese heroes are incompatible is coming from. It's more the style of hero than anything else. I mean, if Stargirl (for example) wore a sailor outfit, exactly how different would she be from a Magical Girl? What exactly is the substantive difference between cosmic rays making you stretchy than becoming a rubber man from eating a magic fruit?

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(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 08:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brianwilly, 2009-05-26 01:52 pm UTC

[info]hybrid2
2009-05-26 10:22 am UTC (link)
Awsome post.
lot's of things i did'nt know.
and i've been wondering how many hero genre there was in japanese culture.

(Reply to this)


[info]jarodrussell
2009-05-26 11:20 am UTC (link)
Great post. I can't wait to read the replies.

I am now picturing Grant Morrison as the Anti-Spiral. And that's terrible. He knows, but does not appaer to understand the culture he is writing about, which is part of the source for the general misgiving these characters exude.

I would argue that this is a problem that runs deep in comics, just just comic writers trying to ape Eastern media. The writers know comics, but they fail to understand how they work. As such, you get drek like Final Crisis that has all the look of a comic book, but none of the...spirit of one.

Again, great post!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jarodrussell, 2009-05-26 11:31 am UTC

[info]arbre_rieur
2009-05-26 02:24 pm UTC (link)
Reposting this from elsewhere in these comments because it's about the original post and all the comments as a whole more than it was about the specific thread:

There seem to be two separate arguments running about in all this. One is that the Super Young Team don't act like Japanese people. I don't know enough to know whether that's true or not, but that's certainly a perfectly valid kind of argument to have.

The other argument is that the Super Young Team don't act like the superheroes of Japanese fiction, which I don't find a valid argument. To me, that's like saying a unicorn's horn is the wrong length or that a real ogre wouldn't behave a certain way, or something like that.

Japanese people are real, so of course any story set in the real world or one very much like it, such as the DC universe, should strive to accurately depict them. Japanese superheroes are not real, which means there's no reality for writers to hew to. They can write them as Sentai heroes. They can write them as Liefeld-esque guys with millions of pouches and straps. They can write them as all telepathic. As all non-telepathic. They can write them as all gaining their powers from the same crashed alien vessel. They're all equally valid courses because it's all make-believe.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 02:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arbre_rieur, 2009-05-26 02:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]majingojira, 2009-05-26 03:02 pm UTC


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