InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "liar liar!"

mysteryfan (mysteryfan) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-15 18:39:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, char: wonder girl/troia/donna troy, creator: marshall rogers, creator: steve englehart, creator: terry austin, publisher: dc comics, title: detective comics

By Request
dustbunny105 requested the Batfamily being familial.

Or, as

wal_lace suggested when I posted this on the old s_d: Alternate title: Wonder Girl Makes A Booty Call.
(Her biggest regret? That she didn't tell Dick to bring Batman along too.)

From Detective 474. Story by Steven Englehart, Art by Marshall Rogers and Terry Austin.

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	kitty_tc_69 2009-05-15 09:03 pm UTC (link)
	Thank gods they're long gone. Long live NOIR Batman. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-16 03:53 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, how dare Batman be able to express emotion and friendship with his son! I'd much rather have a Batman who is a deep enough character to be able to embrace multiple story formats without it appearing THAT contrived. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-16 06:40 am UTC (link)
	Yeah. I'm always surprised by how many other character's books he's showing up in at any given time. If he's a loner, he's doing it wrong. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-16 02:18 pm UTC (link)
	Batman's role as loner is mostly in his own publicity, the guy is the centre of a positive hive of heroism mostly inspired by him; Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, Helena, Cass, Sasha Bordeaux. the Outsiders... and so on.. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	mysteryfan 2009-05-16 03:25 pm UTC (link)
	Right. I like to think that he likes to think he's a loner, but everybody close to him knows the truth. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kitty_tc_69 2009-05-16 02:06 pm UTC (link)
	just facepalms at the "his son" thing There's a reason that Robin is only in the Batman movies that suck. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-05-16 02:16 pm UTC (link)
	Ummm... if you don't read Dick as Bruce's son, then I think you've missed the point mightily. And it has to be said, without Robin, we certainly wouldn't have Batman today. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mysteryfan
2009-05-16 06:35 am UTC (link)

This kind of Batman/Robin father son bonding was fairly rare, even for then. I like noir as a genre, but I like to see my favorite characters have a range of settings and behaviors, personally. He's existed for what, 70 years? In quite a few versions. I would be a much less active comics reader if the Batman were only or always portrayed as a grim loner in a bleak setting.

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kitty_tc_69
2009-05-16 02:18 pm UTC (link)

A "grim loner in a bleak setting" is who Batman IS. He's not Superman. He's not Captain America. He's BATMAN. And I'm really sick to death of people trying to resurrect Adam West in the name of "fun". The blue and grey costume, the sunlit settings, the lighthearted attitude, the very existence of Robin... it's just WRONG. It's people like you that caused Shumacher. The misplaced nostalgia for the Silver Age and 60s TV show is what led to "Batman and Robin". And every time we think it's buried for good, people like you and Shumacher and Morrison dig up the corpse. It's a pathetic joke that refuses to die.

Batman: the Animated Series NAILED what Batman should be. Mask of the Phantasm was absolutely definitive, from the art deco stylings to the inherent tragedy to the pitch-perfect characters and settings. They got it right. Batman is NOIR. He's a 40's hardboiled detective in superhero form. The sunlit happy silly "Batman and Robin" is an abberation.

For all that's holy, STOP trying to bring it back.

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mysteryfan
2009-05-16 03:23 pm UTC (link)

I'd really appreciate it if you could express your point of view in a way that didn't presume to know what I like or come off quite so personal and vitriolic.

You're wrong. I'm actually not a fan of Schumacher or Morrison (although I did like one plot device he used), I think the Silver Age IS pretty silly and I don't want the Silver Age back. At ALL. Nor 60s TV show Batman. I happen to think BtAS is brilliant.

That said, the movieverse is different from the comicsverse. Completely, and in many ways. And in the comicsverse, Batman is often surrounded by cadres of people, whether it's the JLA or the Outsiders, one or more of his 5 to 6 children (depending on how you count them), Alfred, Jim Gordon, some others I can't think of right now and the people he's inspired, like Babs.

So there's a difference in the stories and the way they are told: Comicverse and Movieverse.

Also, I'm sure you know this, but Robin isn't from the 60s TV show. He was created shortly after Batman was created. A year later, I think. I believe Batman is 70 and Robin is 69.

At any rate, I'd really appreciate it if you could be more civil in the voicing of your feelings and refrain from phrases like 'people like you', which, in my opinion, is rude.

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kitty_tc_69
2009-05-16 03:52 pm UTC (link)

Sorry... I harbor a deep black fiery hatred for Robin you could ignite a red lightsaber with. In all of comics history he's the source of more bad storytelling and real world consequences --remember, it was the pedophilia subtext Wertham read into the character that inspired his witch hunt-- than anything else combined. He's almost singlehandedly responsible for losing two generations or more of comics to the Silly-ver Age ghetto. He almost killed the movie franchise. He killed noir.

The character, the very concept itself, is a concentrated ball of suck that infects and destroys all it touches. He is an abomination, a vile horrid thing that repulses me to the very core and offends me by his mere existence.

There aren't enough crowbars and explosives in the world to redress the damage the character has done. There isn't enough money in my bank account to drop into 1-900 numbers to kill him off for good. And it will never be enough, until he's retroactively erased for all time.

Sorry I took that out on you... but the subject is rather an emotional one for me.

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runespoor7
2009-05-16 04:43 pm UTC (link)

I'm not going to touch the rest of your comment, but just this:

remember, it was the pedophilia subtext Wertham read into the character that inspired his witch hunt
Not really. There was a lot going on in comic books that Wertham vehemently disagreed with. Mostly violence, crime, and horror, and the link Wertham insisted on making between crime comics and juvenile delinquence.

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kitty_tc_69
2009-05-16 10:56 pm UTC (link)

I'll point you to this excerpt from the Batman Encyclopedia at http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Batman_-_Homosexual_interpretations/id/4898240:

In 1954, psychologist Fredric Wertham's general assertion in his book Seduction of the Innocent was that readers would imitate crimes committed in comic books, and that these works would corrupt the morals of the youth. The most notorious charge in the book, however, was leveled at Batman, in a four-page polemic claiming that Batman and Robin were gay. "They live in sumptuous quarters, with beautiful flowers in large vases, and have a butler," Wertham wrote. "It is like a wish dream of two homosexuals living together." What was more, Wertham asserted, "the Batman type of story may stimulate children to homosexual fantasies."

and the google search http://www.google.com/search?q=wertham+seduction+innocent+robin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a reveals quite a few more references. I'm not making this up.

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runespoor7
2009-05-17 06:07 am UTC (link)

The first part of the quote you're using as proof is this: Fredric Wertham's general assertion in his book Seduction of the Innocent was that readers would imitate crimes committed in comic books, and that these works would corrupt the morals of the youth.

I'm not contesting the fact that Wertham saw Batman and Robin as homosexual fantasies and thought that such a model would turn children into homosexuals; anyone knows that who knows anything about Wertham. But at the time, his biggest target were crime comics. They were the most explicit target of the Hendrickson trials/commission (which were was led to the Comics Code being implemented), they were what got forbidden in several States, they were what parents were worried about.

I'm aware that I'm only pointing you at Wikipedia's article on Wertham, which is not the most reliable source of info, but my big source is Jean-Paul Gabilliet's Of Comics and Men, and I'm not typing 4+ pages.

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mysteryfan
2009-05-17 08:20 am UTC (link)

Thank you for your apology, and for the Batgirl icon you tried to send me. I appreciate it.

As far as Wertham, here's a good site that shows the kinds of books he went on about most. The public tends to think he went on most about Batman, but in reality it was about crime and horror comics more than anything. It's a really interesting site. I'll link to a list of covers of comics that are sited in Seduction of the Innocent. There's also, if you dig around, an incredibly creepy essay from a later parents' magazine about molestation. http://www.seductionoftheinnocent.org/SOTIComics.htm

Even more fascinating to me at the moment is this essay: http://www.toonzone.net/anbat/essays/wg3.html.

Excerpt: Remember perversion staining backwards? If Old Man Wayne is accused of having a same-sex affair with one boy, public perception would assume that that’s what he’s always done. Suddenly the father of orphans becomes the son of perdition. He didn’t give poor Dick and Tim a home out of compassion or to set an example for other prospective foster parents. He did it to molest them. Furthermore, Dick and Tim do more to promote this charge than Terry McGinnis ever could. Supposedly Dick moved into Wayne Manor at age nine (comics version) to eleven (B:TAS) and Tim at age thirteen (TNBA). Both left in a state of extreme mental anguish. Tim went insane. He moved out but still needs therapy forty years later. As for Dick, he fled the country! (Went to South America, according to the comics.) Despite their ages these characters didn’t move out so much as run away from home.

Dick and Tim call Bruce a freak and a manipulator. They blame him for stealing their childhood. Metaphorically speaking, they spit on the ground when his name is mentioned. They left decades ago and nothing can induce them to make the first move toward him. They aren’t there for him. Some villain or other is always trying to assassinate him (Shriek, Blight, Payback, the Royal Flush Gang, the ROTJ Jokerz, their Joker master), but no one ever checks to see if the old man is dead or alive. Maybe they missed the first newscast – but after the fifth attempt, you have to conclude they’re not coming.

That is what the public will see. It needn’t be true. It need only be believed.

But if Wayne does adopt Terry, public perception would conclude that this is what Wayne has always done or tried to do. Bruce Wayne remains the protector of widows and orphans, and if his troubled sons ran away from home, well, it was because they were troubled. That’s why they were in foster care in the first place.

So the writer of that essay takes a different point of view, that Batman's fatherhood should be directly confronted, thus dispelling things.

(This essay deals with Animated Batman, and on a completely unrelated sidenote, except that trying to dispell Wertham led to misogyny, and Batverse women being sexualized inappropriately in order to prop up Batman (thus cheapening both characters) versus the women being motivated by altruism, ew! that Babs slept with a father and son in BB. Ew.)

Also, I need to correct something I said earlier. I said Bruce had a maximum of six kids, and was thinking about whether or not one counted Terry, since in DC Comics U he doesn't exist. Or something. But I forgot about Selina's daughter, and whether Bruce is genetically the father or isn't, I'd be willing to bet that eventually he will be bringing the child up as a father figure. It's his comicsverse nature and too good of a storyline to not get developed at some point on down the line.

So that makes Dick, Jason, Tim, Cass, Terry, Selina's daughter, Damian as children, either adopted or sired, and two more Robins: Steph and Carrie Kelly.

You can hate them, I guess, but they're definitely a part of the comicsverse and a big part of what people like to talk about in this community. Just a thought, and again, thank you for your apology.

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kitty_tc_69
2009-05-17 03:08 pm UTC (link)

Thank you in return for reacting gently rather than jumping down my throat in return. I don't mean to get too personal, but I do have a bit of a ranting side. More often than not it's meant as humorous, channeling the style of Denis Leary and Sam Kinnison to make a point in an over the top fashion, or George Carlin to make a point with dry, piercing wit. I am not these great masters, however, and betimes I fail to utilize the style correctly. Especially when I type from emotion.

Anyhow, to the meat of your post.

Can it really be argued anymore that the comicsverse is so convoluted and scattershot as to be completely broken? Think about it this way: I've been into Batman literally for as long as I can remember. I grew up watching the 60's show in reruns, and the cartoons on TV back when Casey Casem was still voicing Robin and Hannah Barbera still had the license. I was in line for Burton's Batman on opening day. And I absolutely fell in love with the Animated Series.

I should be a perfect mark for DC, and yet even I can't get into the comicsverse. How the hell can they expect anyone else to come aboard if even someone like me won't?

Like almost everything at DC these days, it only makes sense if you've read it that way for years. If you're in the club already, hey great!... if not, well sorry. If you're coming over from outside comics, or from Marvel, or even if you just haven't read any books in a few years, forget it. You're out in the cold. Everything is keyed to the hardcore fan and to hell with everyone else.

It wasn't always like that. DC had that problem in spades once, with a confusing universe that catered only to the core base and labored on with an unwieldy mass of legacy ideas and stories that were often decades out of date. They recognized it, and fixed it. Post Crisis, they streamlined their universe, pruned away the clutter that had built up over the decades, and modernized their characters and settings. They took what made the characters tick at their core and updated them for a modern audience. At that point I started reading not just Batman, but Superman as well. And it rocked. They took all of Marvel's best innovations and went one better on them. They -owned- the decade, firing on all cylinders while their rivals were devolving into the "Xtreeem!" era.

Then the Silver Agents started bleating. They wanted Krypto back, they wanted Kara El back, they wanted all the Robins back, they wanted Superman to be upber-powerful again, they wanted the multiverse back, they wanted "fun!" (read silly and random) stories back, etc etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Well, they got their way. Their comics are just like they remember them, and no one else wants to touch them.

This is not a positive thing.

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psychop_rex
2009-05-17 03:47 pm UTC (link)

For the record, Robin was initially created for precisely the same reason that the Crisis was - to bring new readers into the fold. (For very different reasons, I'll grant you.) Kane and Finger thought that Batman as a brooding loner was getting too difficult to write - this was the age of spoken exposition, after all, and Batman needed someone to talk to, someone the readers could relate to. So they created Robin - and it worked! (I'm sorry, I'm sure you already know this, but I just wanted to make a point.)
As for the current situation - I think the main problem is not so much that writers are bringing in elements of the past (although I personally would prefer to see more Golden Age elements rather than Silver), the problem is that it's not being coordinated properly. The two eras are very different, and time should be taken to integrate each transplant carefully into the modern era, to make it work properly, before bringing in the next one. Therefore, when the next one came in, readers would have accepted the previous transplant as a part of the modern universe, and the next one would seem to flow organically from THAT, instead of just being yanked directly from the past. Unfortunately, what they're ACTUALLY doing is just flinging them about higgledy-piggledy, with one writer saying 'oh, if he can do that, then I can do this', and another saying 'oooh, if those guys can do that, then there's nothing stopping me doing this', except the editor, of course, but he doesn't, and they all keep piling up on top of one another, and it's all a big mess. My guess is that, in ten years or so, things will have settled down a bit and order will reign again, but in the meantime, it's a bit chaotic.

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	mysteryfan 2009-05-17 05:59 pm UTC (link)
	I am so tired of every writer having a different version of the same character and/or not reading up on the character's recent events. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	psychop_rex 2009-05-17 06:15 pm UTC (link)
	In their defense, it must be very complicated keeping track of these things, but I agree. There's little point in HAVING a meticulously detailed continuity if you can't keep it up. (Reply to this) (Parent)

mysteryfan
2009-05-17 05:56 pm UTC (link)

Only have a sec, but I should be a perfect mark for DC, and yet even I can't get into the comicsverse. How the hell can they expect anyone else to come aboard if even someone like me won't?

That is an interesting point, and I think it deserves more time than I have to give right now, but it is interesting.

I also haven't processed your thoughts about DC post-crisis or DC compared to Marvel. I do agree that there are problems in the comicverse. If I have time and don't feel too overwhelmed by the enormity of the topic, I'll try to come back to it. It is interesting to me.

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