InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "wrong! do it again!"

drsevarius (drsevarius) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-27 09:01:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: catwoman/selina kyle, char: joker, char: robin/catgirl/carrie kelly, creator: frank miller, series: bat/cat, title: the dark knight returns

Bat/Cat: The Dark Knight Returns

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	retro_nouveau 2009-04-27 08:23 am UTC (link)
	More than a pinch of Frank Miller will not make the Batter better. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	icon_uk 2009-04-27 09:46 am UTC (link)
	And we all know about the the Bat-batter, don't we Robin... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ladymirth 2009-04-27 08:54 am UTC (link)
	This is part of the reason I hate DKR so much. Selina as a fat, washed-out madame with horrible make up. Augh! Much as I love Year One... stabs Miller (Reply to this) (Thread)

	benicio127 2009-04-27 09:39 am UTC (link)
	Actually, I"m thinking of putting up some scans for some kind of Batman Elseworlds week in the near future and Selina is a fat madame in Batman: Nine Lives. sniff But still.. loving the Bat/Cat week(s)!!! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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	ashez2ashes 2009-04-27 07:24 pm UTC (link)
	Motto. Before I knew more about Miller, I had read this and it majorly pissed me off. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sherkahn
2009-04-27 09:30 am UTC (link)

I actually liked this. A dystopian future that is likely possible, based on how the world turns out. A world without Batman and the standards he brings is a bad world. Now that I am much older and I have seen how my own circle of friends have risen and 'fallen', I can appreciate it more.

And 20+ years later, modern society looks a LOT like the Dark Knight's world than it did back in the 80's.

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	icon_uk 2009-04-27 09:50 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, but NOT all of your friends have fallen, have they? Some have risen too. It's the sheer, utter, unremitting bleakness of DKR world which is irksome. Where are the likes of Dick (leaving aside the frankly soul destroyingly jarring DKSA), Wally and Donna? The implication from DKR is that ONLY Batman was a good man who could make a difference. Screw that! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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pyynk, 2009-04-27 11:08 pm UTC

	sistermagpie 2009-04-27 09:38 am UTC (link)
	I just will never like this book. For instance, I find I totally disagree with just about everything in the above comment. I don't think society needs Batman's standards to not be this, and the world does not look any more like this future than it did in the 80s to me. It just looks like Frank Miller in any decade. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	schmevil 2009-04-27 10:23 am UTC (link)
	I liked parts of DKR. It had a few moments of awesome, but otherwise was ham-handedly dystopic and ideological. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

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bluefall, 2009-04-27 10:07 pm UTC

	kamino_neko 2009-04-27 11:51 am UTC (link)
	I agree. Full disclosure, I've never actually finished DKR - because, on top of what you say, it's just badly written. The format ill serves it. However, what I managed to get through, reading story rundowns, the scans here, even what people say when praising it, has convinced me the writing wasn't the only thing wrong with it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sherkahn
2009-04-27 11:59 am UTC (link)

Forgive me if I ramble, butI feel passionate about this topic and this book.

In regards to my above comment... the absence of Batman (and the other DC heroes) turned the bright and shiny DC universe in the Dark Knight dystopia future with looser and darker pubic morals, worse than some of Marvel's dark futures.

In this dark DC future there were no ideal heroes around to motivate and inspire people to rise above their own selfish needs. Even with Superman around (although working in a clandestine fashion). The heroes bowed out, and the standards of quality of life and moral code represented better by the Flash, the Green Lantern and Diana went down the toilet.

Further, and to quote TDK Joker, the world and gotham needed "a better class of criminal". Can you imagine the Mutant gang achieving the level of power and fear in the city with the Joker, Killer Croc or the Penguin still running the upper echelons of crime in the city? Where are the mob bosses? Sure they were very very bad men who did very very bad things, but they had standards. I will open this up for debate by saying that TDKR Two-Face doesn't count. Harvey Dent has lost his fight with his dark side, and is self-destructive and nihilistic in his despair. The attempts to clean him up were only cosmetic, and he is rotten to the core, like society.

What we get teens that are street thugs, kids getting their kicks off of theft, rape and murder.
Almost all of them that we see in the book are, except for the new Robin. Basically, teens that grew up without role models on either side. And as hard as I have to admit saying it, those teens are us - the hardened readers. Before the big climax, THE FIGHT, there was a small unspoken moments that I have come to appreciate as I look back at what Batman was, what he is and what he means to us.

It was when the news reporters mentioned that the cities of the United States were in chaos in the nuclear winter, there was ONE city where people could walk safely down the streets. Where the rebelling youth of our future were guided out of the gutter and darkness by one man. The one man who can plunge into the abyss with us and haul us (as a society) back from the brink through sheer spirit and willpower alone into the light. One man who CAN make a difference, with the sheer power of his presence or absence. A man strong enough to take our place in the shadows of our hearts and darkness of our streets and take it all... because he can. Batman.

And to all the posters who have said that we (as Americans) aren't in a world darker now (and closer to the dystopia of the DKNR world), I painfully have two things to counter-argue to you.
1) School shootings
2) the hype over the 'octo-mom'.

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irenem
2009-04-27 12:03 pm UTC (link)

I remember waiting to floored, expecting at least to be amused. I read it in one sitting and then I read some Nancy Drew to clean my brain.

The combination of ugly art, bad writing, and themes worthy of a 15-year-old boy on crack just didn't do it for me. Batman reminded me too much of Cable, Catwoman was too pathetic, the Joker was... blah. I thought the mutant gangs were pretty hilarious, although I don't think that was what Miller was going for.

I did have one pretty weird dream with DKR!Batman threatening to kill me if I didn't paint a picture of him, but other than that I was unaffected.

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	parsimonia 2009-04-27 09:49 am UTC (link)
	I like ASBAR better than this. ASBAR! 0_o (Reply to this) (Thread)

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uadlika, 2009-04-27 10:37 am UTC

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ashtoreth, 2009-04-27 09:34 pm UTC

statham1986
2009-04-27 09:54 am UTC (link)

Besides the addition of Carrie Kelly, who was pretty cool as a female Robin and later, Catgirl, I couldn't stand DKR. Not for what it is, and not for what it caused, which is over twenty years of Batasshole! stories striving to emulate this piece of garbage.

I actually preferred The Dark Knight Strikes Again, because whilst it was utterly ridiculous, at least it recognised that and had fun with the traditional notion of heroes versus villains. This was just crap.

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batcookies, 2009-04-27 03:21 pm UTC

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statham1986, 2009-04-27 03:49 pm UTC

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bluefall, 2009-04-27 10:21 pm UTC

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kamino_neko, 2009-04-28 02:50 am UTC

	cmdr_zoom 2009-04-27 10:37 am UTC (link)
	w wh (Reply to this)

	unknownscribler 2009-04-27 12:12 pm UTC (link)
	Someone needs to re-release DKR with shiny pretty art (frex, I don't recall anything in the dialogue referencing Selina'a appearance...) (Reply to this) (Thread)

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thehefner.livejournal.com, 2009-04-27 12:50 pm UTC

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ashtoreth, 2009-04-27 09:43 pm UTC

	mysteryfan 2009-04-27 01:05 pm UTC (link)
	Ignoring everything ~~because I hate it~~ else, the image above the cut-tag is kind of weirding me out with the Bat-tongue. (I know it's probably NOT his tongue, but that's what I thought it was when I first saw it and I'm having trouble unseeing.) (Reply to this)

Now, really...

besamim
2009-04-27 01:08 pm UTC (link)

Am I really the only s_d-er who likes DKR, without qualification? I'm not talking DKSA which really did suck, nor ASB&R which sucks if it's meant to be taken seriously. I'm talking the original DKR. Along with Year One, it's Miller at his best. Some of the passages are breathtaking:

The twice-repeated passage about the primordial Bat coming for Bruce, as a boy and again as an old man: "Surely the fiercest survivor, the purest warrior...glaring, hating... Claiming me as your own."</em>

Gordon's speech about Pearl Harbor. "It was too big. He was too big."

Batman being haunted by the Joker even beyond the grave: "Stop...stop laughing."

Superman's plea to his adopted mother, Earth, to restore him after the nuclear blast.

Carrie's sheer awe at Batman in command. "It's just his voice. Just him."

And on and on.

C'mon, who's with me here?

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Re: Now, really... Am I really the only s_d-er who likes DKR, without qualification? -

batcookies, 2009-04-27 02:53 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... Am I really the only s_d-er who likes DKR, without qualification? -

benicio127, 2009-04-27 04:42 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... Am I really the only s_d-er who likes DKR, without qualification? -

heat16, 2009-04-27 06:21 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... Am I really the only s_d-er who likes DKR, without qualification? -

besamim, 2009-04-28 09:40 am UTC

Re: Now, really... -

aegof.livejournal.com, 2009-04-27 04:34 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... -

besamim, 2009-04-28 09:42 am UTC

Re: Now, really... -

saralakali, 2009-04-27 05:47 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... -

pyynk, 2009-04-28 11:09 pm UTC

Re: Now, really... -

metrosessuale, 2009-05-01 04:00 am UTC

batcookies
2009-04-27 02:59 pm UTC (link)

Turning the most famous woman in comics into a former prostitute that decides to wear a costume after seeing "a real man", and then having her become a prostitute (Madame, whatever) again as she gets older... this still remains the worst thing Miller ever did, and one of the worst moments in comics history.

Which is a pity, because I otherwise love Year One to pieces.

And of course, other people just had to keep trying to top it. Not just a prostitute, but a raped underage one that ended up in the hospital pissing blood! And her first costume was fetish gear one of her "Johns" wanted her to wear! And not only was she underage when she was introduced to prostitution, she was VERY underage, and her bestest friend in the whole wide world ended up going crazy and trying to kill her, years later, because she and Selina were both working the streets and Selina wasn't the one picked by a VERY bad man!

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bluefall, 2009-04-27 03:36 pm UTC

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magus_69, 2009-04-27 05:16 pm UTC

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bluefall, 2009-04-27 05:19 pm UTC

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batcookies, 2009-04-27 07:39 pm UTC

Just musing -

ashtoreth, 2009-04-27 09:57 pm UTC

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xlineartx, 2009-04-27 05:49 pm UTC

killermoth1
2009-04-27 05:54 pm UTC (link)

I don't know about DKR. On one hand, I think the bashing it is getting here is a little overzealous, I mean, even Miller's whoreswhoreswhores viewpoint doesn't hold up that well past Selina, since both Carrie Kelly (who's name always escapes me for some reason) and the new commissioner were both pretty awesome. It also has some themes beyond its stupendous bleakness, such as how it ultimately ends on a positive note, Bruce realising that the world doesn't have to become darker, and focusing on life rather than death.

On the other of course it goes way to far on the Millermetre (hmm,get it?) and inspired a whole era of Superman haters and Batgod stories. It also goes off the deep and creepy end quite a few times, and the mutants are a mix of scary and utter hilarious 80's styling.

Overall I wouldn't say it's a terrible book, I like to read it occasionally to see if I can still make my mind up on it. Best Bat book EVER!11!? No way. But neither is it horrible trash, for at the very least it has some clever and intriguing moments. But yeah, this scene was not my favourite.....at all.

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ladymirth, 2009-04-27 09:23 pm UTC

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	heat16 2009-04-27 06:27 pm UTC (link)
	I notice how Miller's art tends to get sloppy the longer he works on something. The first chapter of DKR has nice art, and a realistic looking Batman. But the later chapters, Batman gets bulkier and faces become a mess. DKSA has the same problem (althoug the art wasnt that good to begin with) (Reply to this) (Thread)

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pyynk, 2009-04-28 11:04 pm UTC

	merseybeatler 2009-04-27 09:06 pm UTC (link)
	I didn't even particularly like this book, but Carrie Kelly really made it up for me. She's just too incredibly adorable. (Reply to this)

besamim
2009-04-28 10:45 am UTC (link)

Since we're talking DKR (pro or con), I have a purely factual question: Was this story the first to introduce the motif of tension/resentment between Batman and Superman? I seem to recall John Byrne touching on it (though to a much less extreme extent) in his reboot Man of Steel, which was from the same year I think. Just wondering which came first, or if there were other, pre-Crisis stories that set up Bruce and Clark as foils rather than friends, as I seem to recall their being in the Golden and Silver Ages anyway.

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thebat_man, 2009-07-10 02:54 pm UTC

	thebat_man 2009-07-10 01:10 pm UTC (link)
	This is a very realistic depiction of an older woman. Many women gain weight at this age. It's refreshing to see a woman in comics who does not look like a standard comic book female. (Reply to this)

thebat_man
2009-08-25 12:44 pm UTC (link)

I know that dark, grim and gritty comic books are not the current fade in comics and I realize the current trend is a Wholesome Silver Age moral nostalgia/revival but there's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns really isn't "bad" writing at all. Frank Miller makes Gotham City a believably corrupt dangerous place like the real world because Batman works only in a world that's in terrible shape. If Gotham is a nice safe clean town then Batman is an unnecessary idea. DC was dark in the beginning in the Golden Age. Batman has his roots in the pulps, specifically The Shadow. Bill Finger and Bob Kane's Batman's Gotham City was a believably dark place full of crime. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster's Superman fought believable realistic crime and corruption. Catwoman having been a Dominatrix and later in life running an escort service is very believable. I love Frank Miller's cartoony art. Cartoony art goes back to Batman's roots. Frank Miller brought Batman back to his dark roots further than anyone else had, more in line with the original vision of the character. Closer to the police-beating, bone-breaking brutal Bill Finger-Bob Kane original. First is the use of the bat emblem on his chest without the yellow moon in Batman The Dark Knight Returns. In the Golden Age this was the standard. Batman carrying and using guns, which hadn't been seen since 1940. Frank Miller brought back Robin's sling shot which had not been seen since 1940. The gadgets and bat vehicles which had been toned way down in the '70s. Batman originally was a terror striking creature of the night wanted by the police. Batman The Dark Knight Returns was a return to that concept. Frank Miller clearly made Batman darker - far more brutal than he's been in decades - breaking bones, beating cops. He redesigned the batarangs - they're much crueler. If you actually look at the source material - the early stories by Bill Finger, Gardner Fox and Bob Kane - Batman's methods were not nice. He was extreme in his actions. They've castrated the Grimms' fairy tales. And they've castrated the American superhero fairy tales, too. I'm glad Frank Miller doesn't soften Batman any. There is humor in Batman: The Dark Knight Returns such as Robin putting a firecracker in a guys pants, Superman saying to Robin, "Isn't tonight a school night?" Even Joker having Selina in bondage dressed up in a Wonder Woman costume is dark humor.

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