InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Beam me up, Scotty!"

sailorlibra (sailorlibra) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-26 12:54:00

Entry tags:

char: batman/bruce wayne, char: catwoman/selina kyle, char: harley quinn/harleen quinzel, char: jim gordon, char: poison ivy/pamela isley, creator: devin grayson, creator: jeph loeb, creator: jim balent, creator: jim lee, creator: karl kesel, creator: terry dodson

Cats, and Poison Ivies, and Girls Named After Motorcycles, Oh My!
The long and convoluted history of Catwoman with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn. This thing ain't dial-up safe, seeing as there is over fifty scans below.

Catwoman first runs into Poison Ivy after Gotham's had its big earthquake. Against her better judgement, Selina has take it upon herself to stop potential looters.

Selina manages to escape and track Ivy down.

Catwoman chooses to smash the formula in Ivy's face, thus defeating both obstacles at once.

While Selina can be said to the victor of her battle with Ivy, her relationship with Harley is a little bit more complicated.
When the two meet, Sel is currently in jail. She's not reacting well to being imprisoned, though it's not just the imprisonment making her act strangely. They end up in cells next to each other and Harley makes Selina tell her about her childhood.

Yes, the art is hideous, thanks for asking.

In case you didn't believe me about Selina being a little crazy. Her actions lead to a riot among the inmates, who capture a few of the guards. Those officials who are not captured decide to send a strange new guard in to negotiate with the prisoners.

Harley may be silly, but she's not at all nice in this story. She decides to torture Commissioner Gordon with Selina's help, because Catwoman holds a grudge against him for putting her in jail.
Both the Commish and Batman think that Selina is solely responsible for the torture, but they can't figure out why she's doing it.

When therapists go evil... It's not a pretty sight.

And thus ends the partnership of Harley Quinn and Catwoman. On a rather sour note, I must admit.
Their next meeting is much more friendly.

I really love the way continuity is used here. Those are familiar with Harley and Cat's past, get an added layer of depth, and those are not, aren't left confused.
While Ivy is also at the party, she and Catwoman never really get a chance to talk. At least, not until Jeph Loeb released the infamous Hush. (And while I actually really really like most of Loeb's work, it would nice if it felt like he was at least slightly familiar with Catwoman's past run-ins with Harley and Ivy.)

Gee, it might have helped Ivy a little bit if she'd used that trick on Catwoman the last time. Y'know the time when Selina kicked her ass?
Unless Dini's disregarding Hush, it would be hard to see how he could establish Sel and Ivy as friends.

Ivy manages to get away, so the BatCat team borrows Superman's dog to track her down.

Harley ends up attacking an opera in Gotham. Yeah, she has good taste.

The three gals of Gotham have a complicated history with each other. A really complicated, I'll-kill-you-type-history. Frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing them interact in Gotham City Sirens, though I hope Dini doesn't just disregard their past history. It's some interesting stuff. (Though not necessarily, good stuff...)

(Post a new comment)

	sandoz_iscariot 2009-04-26 01:18 pm UTC (link)
	Oh lord, that's Balent art in the first set of scans, isn't it? D: Every time I see the purple costume with the tail...I'm filled with fresh new love for the leather and goggles. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	darklorelei 2009-04-26 01:42 pm UTC (link)
	Motto. I mean, I'll admit, I do have a bit of a goggle fetish, but Catwoman has had some terrible costumes. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	thehefner.livejournal.com 2009-04-26 02:31 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously motto! I'm always amazed when I discover people who dislike the Cooke costume, or long for the 90's one again. I mean, if we were talking the Golden Age purple dress costume with the dashing green scarf, I'd understand that. But sheesh. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

kitty_tc_69
2009-04-26 05:37 pm UTC (link)

Prepare to be amazed, then, because you're looking at one.

The current costume utterly fails to be catlike or sexy, nor does it have any continuity of style with the character's history of looks. It also fails for completely hiding her hair, which is an utter turnoff in any female costume. Really, who finds bald women attractive? It becomes instead disturbing and wrong. I don't mind if the hair is a wig built into the mask, but a feminine form without hair is just creepy.

Then again, I think the costume's lack of femininity or attractiveness is what some people find good about it. I won't get into what I feel are the wrongs of sex-negative feminism, or of the double standard that ignores or promotes hyper-masculinity for males while promoting androgynous, neutered looks for female characters, instead I will just say I take issue with that position.

More to the point, however, this is Catwoman we're talking about. She's the archetypical Femme Fatale in all of comics history, the trope maker for the sexy catsuit look. She's supposed to be sexy, seductive, slinky, and sensual --it's what she does. The "androgynous practical" look goes against her entire established character. She should never have short hair or short nails, should never de-emphasize her femininity. She is the closest human thing to the Goddess Bast, and her sultry, catlike sexuality is at the very core of her character. In fact, it's one of her weapons. One of her core traits is that she holds most men in contempt, and uses her allure against them, considering them pathetic when they fall for it. These are aspects that have been with the character since her inception.

And I'll even admit, the new look may work for Holly. She's a different character, and a different kind of Catwoman. But not Selina Kyle. If she doesn't drip pure sexuality in everything she does, she's not Selina. It's her style, it's her theme. It's how she operates.

To ignore that is to ignore everything that makes her Catwoman.

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	darklorelei 2009-04-26 06:20 pm UTC (link)
	I completely disagree with your hair point. A lot. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sandoz_iscariot
2009-04-26 07:12 pm UTC (link)

She's supposed to be sexy, seductive, slinky, and sensual --it's what she does.

I thought what she did was steal things and have exciting adventures, sometimes featuring a complex relationship with Batman.

Different strokes for different folks, but I don't agree with your reasoning, particularly the adjectives "disturbing," "neutered," and "creepy." Bald or short-haired women may not be your idea of beauty, but I don't think the visibility of hair determines whether a woman is sensual or "feminine."

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kitty_tc_69
2009-04-27 02:35 am UTC (link)

Please refer to my post below regarding the butch-to-femme spectrum, and Selina's traditional place on that scale.

Also, thief/adventurer and "foe yay" to Batman are not the extent of Selina's concept or core attributes. One of my biggest peeves with the modern Selina is the fact that the portrayal leaves out the classic elements of the Femme Fatale that have been with her since her inception. And again, it's fine for Holly to be that way, she's a different character and a different Catwoman, but to leave those elements out of Selina is to render her out of character.

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	brandiweed.livejournal.com 2009-04-26 07:30 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, but what are your thoughts on yaoi? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-04-27 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	No, no, that's that other large community that got TOS'd to an LJ clone. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	a_trill 2009-04-26 07:53 pm UTC (link)
	So if I favor practical looks for my superheroines, does that mean I want them to be "neutered"? Do short hair and nails automatically negate femininity? News to me. Really, who finds bald women attractive? Well, I do. Your personal standards for attractiveness are not some universal standard. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

kitty_tc_69
2009-04-27 01:57 am UTC (link)

Umm, length of hair and nails are key indicators on the scale of "butch" to "femme", and that IS a universal standard. It has nothing to do with what I like and much more to do with the fact that Selina Kyle is traditionally very femme, often to an exaggerated degree, and her current look flies in the face of that history with a much more androgynous look.

And while you might find that look "practical", and preferable, it remains out of character for Selina Kyle. And that's the point.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

a_trill
2009-04-27 04:07 am UTC (link)

You think it's out of character for Selina, I don't agree, but that's fine, different strokes. I was addressing other problems I had with what you said. I wasn't specifically talking about Catwoman. I don't think a practical costume has to be "androgynous" or "neutered," that's what I was getting at.

You said, "Who finds bald women attractive?" as if no one would, and that's what I meant by the universal standard remark. My point was that different people have different standards of femininity and attractiveness.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

kitty_tc_69
2009-04-27 03:29 pm UTC (link)

Well I think you'll find that bald women are pretty rare outside the punk scene and a brief flirtation in the 70's (which gave us both Moondragon in comics and the Lt Iria character in the first Star Trek film). And it's undeniably an androgynous look.

But really, that was meant as just an offhand bit of snark, I didn't intend it to be taken so seriously or as the core of what I was trying to get at. And I'm more than happy to apologize to any whom I mistakenly offended.

However, I stand by my belief of the overall effect of the current costume as androgynous. It reminds me of the Robert Palmer girls in his "Simply Irresistible" video, or of 80s era Annie Lennox. And I just don't think that fits what Selina Kyle as Catwoman is all about.

For the record, I don't at all like how B:tAS gave us short-haired, skullcapped Selina. Her characterization was great, but those elements of her look sat wrong with me. And IMO if you're going to hide the hair, at least give her the tail and claws to emphasize the catlike profile as compensation.

On the other hand, you're right that a practical costume doesn't have to be androgynous or neutered. For a good example, look at the new sketches for the Batwoman costume. It's undeniably feminine, but it also is arguably quite a bit more practical than what Batman himself wears most of the time. It's proof in my mind that they didn't have to de-femme Selina, they just chose to. And I think it's a bad choice.

And it really does depend on the character. I love Rachel Summers, who's look has been quite butch for most of her career, especially under Claremont. And I loved the mohawk-and-leather era of Storm, more than any other incarnation. It -worked- for her. It wouldn't work for Selina.

Again, I'd have been fine with the look for Holly. She's a different character with her own style. Selina Kyle to me has certain attributes, strong among them the Femme Fatale elements that sometimes get ignored. Like now. And I miss them and want them back, that's all.

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	snugglebitch.livejournal.com 2009-05-02 08:49 am UTC (link)
	Umm, length of hair and nails are key indicators on the scale of "butch" to "femme", and that IS a universal standard. Hah, not really. (Reply to this) (Parent)

thehefner.livejournal.com
2009-04-26 08:11 pm UTC (link)

First off, hiding the hair is a problem and not a characteristic of Catwoman? Am I understanding this correctly? Then what about her costumes in THE LONG HALLOWEEN/DARK VICTORY, BATMAN RETURNS (NO one seemed to have a problem there!), BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES (both the grey and the black), and countless other times in the comics?

Much of your point seems to stem on the belief that the black catsuit is androgynous and lacks a strong sense of femininity, as well as lacking in sexual attractiveness and power. First off, Diana Rigg begs to differ.

Second of all, I can't possibly see how the catsuit is anything BUT sexy and purely female, much less cat-like. It's called a catsuit for a reason, and it lends her a cat-like sleekness!

So no, it seems to me that the Cooke Catwoman costume is utterly and completely in keeping with Selina's history as a character, while grounding it in a slightly more realistic, practical, and sexy outfit than a garish purple spandex unitard, a silly tail, and dominatrix boots.

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	unknownscribler 2009-04-27 01:13 pm UTC (link)
	Are you perhaps an escape from the anti-matter universe? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	retro_nouveau 2009-04-26 04:15 pm UTC (link)
	Oops! B-b-but I like the purple and long hair. How about dark purple leather? But I'll never get used to ~~Bart's~~ goggles... I used to love Balent until scans daily showed me what Witchblade means. Now it can't be unseen. I now have a new Balent icon anyway. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kitty_tc_69 2009-04-26 05:44 pm UTC (link)
	Don't feel bad, you're not alone. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ulf_boehnke 2009-04-26 01:24 pm UTC (link)
	Are the Body Doubles cosplaying as the ~~Dirty Pair~~ Lovely Angels? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	thandrak 2009-04-26 06:48 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, yes they are. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bluejaybirdie 2009-04-26 02:22 pm UTC (link)
	Gratuitously naked Selina is naked. But seriously though, that was definatly interesting. The "yessss" panel could be taken so very badly out of context... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	runespoor7 2009-04-26 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	Disturbingly fansercivey panels are disturbing. I dunno, I thought the context was "WOMEN PRISON FLICK". (Reply to this) (Parent)

retro_nouveau
2009-04-26 04:01 pm UTC (link)

Wrong - Selina in a padded cell, Selina trying to kill Gordon. Selina is not a nut job, like every other mask in Gotham.

Right - Leslie Thompkins covering for Bruce's exit, and suggesting that Selina should also go where Bruce went. Harley gets the upper hand over Bruce. Yay, Harley... Hey, it could happen! Selina saves Bruce. Cool, Bruce 462, Selina 8. Well, better than zero.

No one takes from me. No one.

Heh, I've never paid enough attention to that before now. Selina got the message.

In the bowling alley, Selina's tail is down. Then the pinsetter activates, and her tail is straight up in the air... XD

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	icon_uk 2009-04-26 04:10 pm UTC (link)
	Frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing them interact in Gotham City Sirens, though I hope Dini doesn't just disregard their past history. Well, at the end of "Heart of Hush" Selina calls in Harley and Ivy to help her, and they seem happy enough, as seen in scottyquick's recent entry, here (Reply to this) (Thread)

sailorlibra
2009-04-26 06:09 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, the post of 'Tec 850 is what inspired this post. In my opinion, Dini never really reveals if the two get along with Catwoman or not. Yes, they're working with her, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're friends with her. In the situation in question, Selina is practically offering Harley and Ivy free money, so of course they're helping her out. But will the truce last, or is it just temporary? That's what I'd like to see in Gotham City Sirens.

After all, we can clearly see that they have a past of not getting along well together.

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	foxhack 2009-04-26 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	BALENT! twitchdies (Reply to this)

	benicio127 2009-04-26 05:48 pm UTC (link)
	Nice job! Y'know the Kesel Harley run.. sighs I just can't imagine Selina actually going to that slumber party/pillow fight/boob fest that Harley threw. I mean buddy-buddy just really is Selina's style. But yeah I think Selina and Harley do have a bit more of a complicated relationship. (Reply to this)

	irenem 2009-04-26 10:02 pm UTC (link)
	Would anyone happen to know the colorist for that first set of scans? For some reason, I really like the colors (moreso than the pencils/ink, anyway.) Maybe it's just that they're muted, and make purple!catsuit look less like skittles. (Reply to this)

	looking2dastars 2009-04-26 10:09 pm UTC (link)
	... Gods, I remember that storyline when Catwoman and Harley met. It was just after Jim Balent left DC... and it was easily one of the worst bunch of comics I've ever read. It was like the woman who wrote it had never read Catwoman before or had any idea what Jim Gordon or Harley were like. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-04-27 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously. I said it in the Brubaker post, I'll say it again here: Selina has suffered some epically bad writing spats in her day. Honestly, I'd be quite happy to see Dini ignore that any of that nonsense ever happened. (Reply to this) (Parent)

batcookies
2009-04-27 02:51 pm UTC (link)

What particularly gets to me is that the stuff by Bronwyn Carlton (who wrote very little other than Catwoman, so it's hard to get a feel for her) was direct justification for the direction taken in Brubaker run (which I didn't like), and really marked the turning point where Selina's stories stopped being about a lovable thief (with some Robin Hood moments and some Lupin III moments). Selina the likable thrillseeking thief became Selina the grim hunted criminal became Selina the billionth grim vigilante of Gotham.

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	batcookies 2009-04-27 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	1. I prefer the purple costume, and its era. 2. Why are Harley, Selina, and Ivy going to be working together? Well one possible reason is that their first "adventure" is going to be them vs. Hush, a guy all of them have reason to hate. So "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" (Reply to this)