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Here’s another thing I’d like to drag out from the depths of Sailorum’s Snily post-and-commentary for independent attention.
Most often, when I read something by someone with a viewpoint strongly different from mine, it clarifies my understanding of how they view (or misinterpret—evil grin) canon, but it has a hard time altering MY view. But sometimes someone offers an insight that just reverses things for me.
The insight that Lily almost certainly was a prefect in SWM altered my perceptions of her behavior very negatively.
However, one of Sailorum’s responses to a comment has the exact opposite effect on my view of Lily in the Mulciber/Potter argument. Like 00sevvie and others, I’d felt Lily to be cold and distant in that scene, not responding like a true friend, for not expressing overt sympathy and horror over her supposed best friend’s near-murder (and for thinking Mulciber’s failed prank, whatever it was, on a par with death-by-werewolf).
But I see now that I was falling into the old trap of assuming that what I knew, a character knew, and judging them on the basis of my knowledge. (Just like all the fen who think that OF COURSE Snape knew all along that the Dark Lord was an Evul sociopath—I mean, it’s obvious in retrospect, right? How could Sev not have known at 15 that this Dark Lord wizard was Bad News?) I’ve been committing that same sin with Lily.
For here’s what Sailorum so cogently points out:
Here's another thing to consider: Lily is a Gryffindor. Gryffindors are known for, among other things, foolishly risking their lives, sometimes just for the thrill of daring do. They are known for having thrill issues. Lily might know plenty of peers who would be just fine after having their life in danger (as long as they entered into the danger themselves and weren't physically hurt very much or permanently damaged). Lily doesn't know that Sirius played a "prank" on Severus. As far as she knows, Severus went down that tunnel of his own accord, with no prompting. And the Whomping Willow is dangerous to be going on with.
Oh, stars.
From Sev’s point of view, what happened was: his enemies made a deliberate attempt to kill him. At the last minute, James realized that the danger of the Marauders getting caught was too great, so he “rescued” Snape in order to save himself and his friends from expulsion and possibly Azkaban.
Given that Severus already suspected that Moony was a werewolf before heading down that tunnel, I think that he had already spied them going down it—and naturally assumed that Lupin was caged or otherwise secured at the other end. But Severus afterwards has spectacular assurance that Moony was not secured in any way, so he must eventually have concluded that the Marauders must somehow have found a way to be safe in a werewolf’s company. (Which must have absolutely BURNED him—those swaggering empty-headed braggarts figured out how to do something he can’t figure out?) Moreover, James plays the hero card (first with the headmaster and then with Lily) for “rescuing” Severus at risk to himself, when Severus is sure (or becomes sure) that James hadn’t put himself in danger.
But from Lily’s point of view, what happened was: Severus pulled a Gryffindor, almost killed himself messing it up, and has James to thank for his life (which Sev has conspicuously not ever done—thanked James, that is).
Now, stop to consider: Lily’s probably a bit of a daredevil herself (if she did consent to rejecting Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper in favor of the Sirius/Peter switch, she must be—and we did see her sailing off that swing as a little girl), and she’s in a house that values that sort of thing.
Think of how James and Sirius react to risk. They’re adrenaline junkies; they consider a week wasted if they haven’t had three brushes at least with death, physical danger, and/or trouble with the authorities. James is a Quidditch star; they both run around out of bounds and let out a werewolf to play; they lead cops on high-speed chases; they join the Order and fight Death Eaters—and are frustrated to the point of reckless stupidity when circumstances force them to stay hidden at home…. (Now, mind, it’s a fact little observed by the Marauders that many of their exploits endanger others in addition to—or more than—themselves. But hey, by sheer coincidence that happens in the neighborhood of thrill-seekers.)
Compare how Severus and Sirius face deadly risk and eventually death: Severus is openly terrified when he approaches Dumbledore to beg for Lily’s life, white-faced but grimly determined to do his duty in GoF, shows a “face like a death mask” when Riddle threatens him in DH, cries out at the snake’s attack…. Sirius, in complete contrast, is exhilarated at the chance to duel Death Eaters, taunts Bellatrix with relish, and falls through the Veil with a look of surprise on his face. To Sirius, danger is a source of pleasure; even after losing friends horribly, the risk of death is never real to him until it happens. For Severus, the risk is always real (and vividly present to him); being a Slytherin, he’ll face it whenever he must, but he finds nothing whatsoever enjoyable about it.
So: how would Sirius have reacted if one of his harebrained exploits had almost killed him, and Severus had waded in and saved him? The risk of death would not have been traumatic in the least; the humiliation of being caught short and saved by his worst enemy would have been excruciating.
Lily has by then spent five years in this subculture, absorbing its norms. And Severus certainly doesn’t go around telling her that he doesn’t actually enjoy danger—she’d think him a coward.
And she has no way of knowing, and Sev’s not allowed to say enough to prove to her, that the Marauders were responsible for his danger in the first place—and that Severus believes that it was an almost-successful murder attempt, which failed only because James at the last minute realized the danger to the Marauders of carrying it through.
So Lily may really, truly, REALLY not understand that Sev was traumatized by his near-murder by the Marauders. She thinks instead that he risked death voluntarily, for fun. What Sev is sulking over is that he failed at his “sneaking,” and had to be rescued by James.
“And you’re being really ungrateful”…
“Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero?”
Indeed.
And Sev has just found out that his best friend knew he was almost killed and didn't even ask how he was doing. And is siding with his would-be murderers. He'd been forbidden to talk about what happened; obviously Potter was not so constrained.
(Bangs head against wall for merciful interval of oblivion.)
*
This carries the theme of crossed communications between them to a dizzying height.
Oh, oh, ouch.
And thanks, Sailorum.
I hate to be corrected.
Most often, when I read something by someone with a viewpoint strongly different from mine, it clarifies my understanding of how they view (or misinterpret—evil grin) canon, but it has a hard time altering MY view. But sometimes someone offers an insight that just reverses things for me.
The insight that Lily almost certainly was a prefect in SWM altered my perceptions of her behavior very negatively.
However, one of Sailorum’s responses to a comment has the exact opposite effect on my view of Lily in the Mulciber/Potter argument. Like 00sevvie and others, I’d felt Lily to be cold and distant in that scene, not responding like a true friend, for not expressing overt sympathy and horror over her supposed best friend’s near-murder (and for thinking Mulciber’s failed prank, whatever it was, on a par with death-by-werewolf).
But I see now that I was falling into the old trap of assuming that what I knew, a character knew, and judging them on the basis of my knowledge. (Just like all the fen who think that OF COURSE Snape knew all along that the Dark Lord was an Evul sociopath—I mean, it’s obvious in retrospect, right? How could Sev not have known at 15 that this Dark Lord wizard was Bad News?) I’ve been committing that same sin with Lily.
For here’s what Sailorum so cogently points out:
Here's another thing to consider: Lily is a Gryffindor. Gryffindors are known for, among other things, foolishly risking their lives, sometimes just for the thrill of daring do. They are known for having thrill issues. Lily might know plenty of peers who would be just fine after having their life in danger (as long as they entered into the danger themselves and weren't physically hurt very much or permanently damaged). Lily doesn't know that Sirius played a "prank" on Severus. As far as she knows, Severus went down that tunnel of his own accord, with no prompting. And the Whomping Willow is dangerous to be going on with.
Oh, stars.
From Sev’s point of view, what happened was: his enemies made a deliberate attempt to kill him. At the last minute, James realized that the danger of the Marauders getting caught was too great, so he “rescued” Snape in order to save himself and his friends from expulsion and possibly Azkaban.
Given that Severus already suspected that Moony was a werewolf before heading down that tunnel, I think that he had already spied them going down it—and naturally assumed that Lupin was caged or otherwise secured at the other end. But Severus afterwards has spectacular assurance that Moony was not secured in any way, so he must eventually have concluded that the Marauders must somehow have found a way to be safe in a werewolf’s company. (Which must have absolutely BURNED him—those swaggering empty-headed braggarts figured out how to do something he can’t figure out?) Moreover, James plays the hero card (first with the headmaster and then with Lily) for “rescuing” Severus at risk to himself, when Severus is sure (or becomes sure) that James hadn’t put himself in danger.
But from Lily’s point of view, what happened was: Severus pulled a Gryffindor, almost killed himself messing it up, and has James to thank for his life (which Sev has conspicuously not ever done—thanked James, that is).
Now, stop to consider: Lily’s probably a bit of a daredevil herself (if she did consent to rejecting Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper in favor of the Sirius/Peter switch, she must be—and we did see her sailing off that swing as a little girl), and she’s in a house that values that sort of thing.
Think of how James and Sirius react to risk. They’re adrenaline junkies; they consider a week wasted if they haven’t had three brushes at least with death, physical danger, and/or trouble with the authorities. James is a Quidditch star; they both run around out of bounds and let out a werewolf to play; they lead cops on high-speed chases; they join the Order and fight Death Eaters—and are frustrated to the point of reckless stupidity when circumstances force them to stay hidden at home…. (Now, mind, it’s a fact little observed by the Marauders that many of their exploits endanger others in addition to—or more than—themselves. But hey, by sheer coincidence that happens in the neighborhood of thrill-seekers.)
Compare how Severus and Sirius face deadly risk and eventually death: Severus is openly terrified when he approaches Dumbledore to beg for Lily’s life, white-faced but grimly determined to do his duty in GoF, shows a “face like a death mask” when Riddle threatens him in DH, cries out at the snake’s attack…. Sirius, in complete contrast, is exhilarated at the chance to duel Death Eaters, taunts Bellatrix with relish, and falls through the Veil with a look of surprise on his face. To Sirius, danger is a source of pleasure; even after losing friends horribly, the risk of death is never real to him until it happens. For Severus, the risk is always real (and vividly present to him); being a Slytherin, he’ll face it whenever he must, but he finds nothing whatsoever enjoyable about it.
So: how would Sirius have reacted if one of his harebrained exploits had almost killed him, and Severus had waded in and saved him? The risk of death would not have been traumatic in the least; the humiliation of being caught short and saved by his worst enemy would have been excruciating.
Lily has by then spent five years in this subculture, absorbing its norms. And Severus certainly doesn’t go around telling her that he doesn’t actually enjoy danger—she’d think him a coward.
And she has no way of knowing, and Sev’s not allowed to say enough to prove to her, that the Marauders were responsible for his danger in the first place—and that Severus believes that it was an almost-successful murder attempt, which failed only because James at the last minute realized the danger to the Marauders of carrying it through.
So Lily may really, truly, REALLY not understand that Sev was traumatized by his near-murder by the Marauders. She thinks instead that he risked death voluntarily, for fun. What Sev is sulking over is that he failed at his “sneaking,” and had to be rescued by James.
“And you’re being really ungrateful”…
“Saved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero?”
Indeed.
And Sev has just found out that his best friend knew he was almost killed and didn't even ask how he was doing. And is siding with his would-be murderers. He'd been forbidden to talk about what happened; obviously Potter was not so constrained.
(Bangs head against wall for merciful interval of oblivion.)
*
This carries the theme of crossed communications between them to a dizzying height.
Oh, oh, ouch.
And thanks, Sailorum.
I hate to be corrected.
Addendum: Misjudging Lily
Because think of what Severus is going to be brooding over AFTER the conversation. The scene ends with Severus’s dizzying rush of relief at Lily’s insistence that she thinks Potter an arrogant toerag—she doesn’t like his rival, at least!
But afterwards—well, Sev STARTED that memory at the point where he showed that he was feeling insecure about Lily’s friendship for him.
What a lot of Snapefen have been saying, about how Lily, when she found out Sev had almost been killed, if she truly cared for him, she would have found a way to come see how he was doing, and would have expressed some concern for him when they did talk? You think all that won’t occur to Severus afterwards, when he thinks about the implications that she KNEW all along about his brush with death—oh, not the details, but she KNEW. And she obviously didn’t care that much.
My first serious love, I decided that a thing he didn’t do proved that he really didn’t care for me. I naturally spent the rest of the relationship desperately pushing him to prove me wrong, while waiting for him to realize the truth as I had. And of course, eventually I was proved right; he grew tired of this, and me.
Ever since DH put the “joke” before SWM, I’ve tended to assume it was right before—like the month before. But I realize canon doesn’t give that—it was more just that I thought of the two incidents as a one-two punch. Someone else had made a case for it happening before James’s birthday in March, and indeed canon doesn’t say.
This poison may have been working on their relationship for MONTHS. Whatever Lily says or does afterwards, she’s already proved she doesn’t really care about him. Severus already knows she doesn’t; he’s just waiting for the final blow to fall, for her to admit it.
And adult Severus may have ultimately realized (as I did) that it hadn’t been true when he first concluded it. That he had made his fears come true. That may be the true significance of THIS memory, as "Mudblood" was always the point of SWM.
We are totally misjudging Lily based on the “The Prince’s Tale.” Because these were never meant to be Severus’s memories of Lily.
They’re his memories of what went wrong between them.
Re: Addendum: Misjudging Lily
I had always assumed that the converation and SWM happened pretty close together, too, but good point! If it had been months...ooh, he'd have had some serious stewing time.
Honored to provide you the springboard! :D *nods head vigorously at whole post*
(I have a feeling it was James and/or Sirius, who opened their yap(s) to someone. What a couple of wangs!)
RE seeing Severus as a thrill-seeker, if we are to accept the notion that Lily really was still truly friends with Severus on her part by the time of the Mulciber conversation, and had not yet distanced herself from him:
how has she spent 6 or 7 years being friends with Severus (IIRC it's indicated that they met when Severus was 9, and he would be 16 here) and never noticed that he is by far no thrill-seeker? Severus not explicitly stating that he doesn't like to court danger is one thing, but don't friends also generally pick up things from behavioural cues and construct subconscious understandings of their friends based on their behavioral patterns? Why would her knowledge *of him* as an individual with whom she has supposedly closely associated for half a decade suddenly be completely overridden by the norms of a subculture she knows he has not been immersed in, even if she herself has? Because I doubt that they spent their summers thrill-seeking together, and if they did anything of that sort, the impetus would have come from Lily. Wouldn't she remember having to urge Severus into joining in, instead of him taking the lead and being all gung-ho Gryffindorish? Even if he never refused due to his pride, his demeanor would indicate some level of discomfort, I would think.
A real question. Sorry to keep at you. :)
excellent point! and yet...
"--He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. "And he's not... everyone thinks... big Quidditch hero--" Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lily's eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.
"I know James Potter is an arrogant toerag," she said, cutting across Snape. "I don't need you to tell me that. But Mulciber's and Avery's idea of humor is just evil. Evil, Sev."
...
The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed....
Don't those climbing eyebrows rather look as though Lily had just realized that some (maybe she thinks, all) of Sev's dislike of James is jealousy?
And her immediate response was to reassure Sev, NO, she doesn't like his rival! But back to the real point of contention--
Lily doesn't grab Sev and snog him, no. (Drifts off into fanfic....)
But if she HAS just realized that somebody besides James "fancies her," she's not cutting him off cold. If anything, her hastily diverting the discussion back to Mulciber and Avery suggests she's trying to buy time. She's not ready to deal with his feelings; she's not sure of her own.
But she certainly doesn't.... Um. Ouch. The school dance when I was 14, someone told a retarded boy that I liked him. And he believed hir, and was flattered, and lumbered up and asked me to dance....
Needless to say, I am (and was then) ashamed of my response, but I don't think, realistically, most teens would have been more graceful or less cruel. Or less, um, quick to get rid of the embarassment.
So trust me when I say, reassuring Severus (I hate the boy you're imagining as a rival) and hastily changing the subject, is NOT the response of someone embarassed that a clear inferior presumies to take a sexual interest.
Or even the response of someone who simply wants to cut this off before it starts. (That would be more: "My opinion of James Potter is none of your business, and it's none of your business who fancies me, either)
Moreover, she had "blushed" earlier, not flushed in embarassment or anger, at "the intensity of his gaze." I.e. Sev's saying "I won't let you" may get her dander up, but she LIKES being the focus of his intense attention.
Finally, I know everyone's different and all, but... at fifteen I wasn't that quick on picking up nonverbal cues of interest. (Indeed, at twenty I wasn't always.) The only way I'd be that quick to spot signs of, um, more romantic interest from one of my best male buddies was, er, if I was a bit looking for them. On some level.
*
So. Finally. To get to the point you were actually addressing: at fifteen, when you had crushes, did you find it made your JUDGMENT better about the subject? Paying more attention to hir, yes; paying inordinate and obsessive amounts of attention to hir, sometimes; but--clearly assessing the loved one's strengths and weaknesses? (Breaks into helpless laughter.)
If I remember correctly [channels Albus], I think, at that age, I was rather more inclined to whitewash the beloved. Certainly I rather closed my eyes, if I could--and somehow it usually seemed I could--to possible character defects. (However glaring apparent those defects later appeared.)
Now, think back to Harry's reassurance to his younger son in the Epilogue. Harry didn't tell ASP that his Slytherin namesake was the cleverest, most loyal, most devious and determined man he'd ever known, though all would have been true.
Harry said Severus was the bravest.
The ultimate, the only, Gryff accolade.
And I really wouldn't call on a teen to distinguish between stupid risk-taking for thrills and the principled braving of death for a purpose. James was capable of the first, and probably of the second; Severus was unabashedly capable only of the second.
So if Lily refuses to notice that her best friend is, um, timid in comparison to her housemates ... maybe it's because she doesn't want to notice it. Because that would diminish him in her eyes. As he's trying his best to hide that lack of relish in risk-taking from her, for the same reason.
For the same reason.
Re: excellent point! and yet...
True, as a teenager one would try to whitewash the other. But Lily is never shown condemning the Slytherins for *cowardice* or otherwise indicating that considerations of bravery specifically play a huge role in her determination of a person's character as good or bad. She's a Gryff, yes, but so is Hermione, so is Neville...there are different forms of bravery, and Lily is never otherwise shown identifying risk-to-life-and-limb, foolhardy rush into death type bravery with moral character or one's "strengths."
And even if she's not wanting to see him as *timid,* that's a far cry from suddenly, immediately interpreting the only reason for his having gone into the tunnel with thrillseeking. Especially considering how recent this development is - it's in THIS VERY CONVERSATION that that occurs to her, you argue (or so I understood your argument), and she is *still confused* about her own feelings. But then why didn't she go see him *before* this conversation? I thought it was because she thought he had been stupidly thrillseeking but had seen him walking about unharmed - before this conversation? She would have had to already have done a complete about-face on her perception of the personality of someone she's known for years (hard enough for me to buy into fully), before the supposed impetus for that about-face!
Re: excellent point! and yet...
Re: excellent point! and yet...
(...)
it's an interesting point - but could it not be that being seen as a sexual being by someone you regard as a friend is an embarrassing experience?
it's merely personal experience i quote from but as teenager i was embarrased by the sudden hormonal reaction of my male friends. not flattered - it was uncomfortable.
severus has been her friend for such a long time - no matter how close their friendship was or not - and it might have just made her feel uncomfortable to be confronted with the fact, that severus, too, was a sexual being.
maybe she liked him as a friend (or merely tolerated him) but wasn't interested sexually in him at all. i'm aware that makes her sound shallow, but i don't know so many teenage girls who are wise enough to not be blinded by broad shoulders and white teeth in that age and alpha male behaviour ...
(on a fanfic level though i do wish she had fancied severus though ... )
as a teenage girl, as a teenager in general one might generally be confused about oneself. - at all times, we happen to unintentionally hurt others, but as a teenager one is especially prone to it (in this light severus insult in swm is merely a typical teenage reaction ...) not because teenagers are less compassionate, but they are so much more vulnerable.
the fifteen year old lily was not a mature person who was in control of her emotions, who made grown-up, rational decisions. she was a child growing into womanhood, finding out that others regarded her in a sexual way, something that must have scared her, but also in a way made her aware of a power that she hadn't before.
Re: excellent point! and yet...
For me, since JKR said in an interview that Lily could have loved Snape romantically if he hadn't 'gone to the dark side', I interpret blushed as a positive sign of attraction on Lily's part. I'm highly biased by my Snily shipping heart, though. ;)
Re: excellent point! and yet...
A few quick thoughts to add:
I personally don't see Lily as thinking Severus is timid, since he studies the daring Dark Arts and is ballsy enough to fight back against The Marauders. And who knows what kind of spell or potion experiments she's been privy too (nothing Dark, I imagine, but experiments do have a way of going wrong until gotten right).
Also, Lily may not value reckless thrill seeking like James or Sirius. She may merely value the virtue of bravery, and might think that being brave to the point of foolhardy, is dumb. Not that I don't think she has a more adventurous streak than Severus...I just tend to think she has less of one than James or Sirius. Again, I give benefit of doubt. So, that might be part of why she would scold Severus for foolish risk taking...not because he was not as 'good' at risk taking as James, but because that kind of risk is foolish to begin with. Whereas risking one's life to save someone (like James did in this case), would be a worthy cause for life endangerment.
I see James and Sirius as the type who might like to 'play chicken' on motorbikes (crazy risky adrenalin rush), Lily as the type that would go whitewater rafting (thrilling and risky in a more reasonable way), and Severus as the type that would prefer wild roller coasters (all the thrill with very little real risk).
I do think that Severus thinks that Lily sees James as more 'competent' on the risk taking side of things, though. Or he worries she does.