Snapedom

I couldn't bear to. I have had lots of discussions with Randomnesses, and they have been frustrating in the extreme. About SWM, I have said that it is possible to empathize with, and be distressed by, both Sev and Lily's behavior. She can't understand that. As far as she is concerned, it is not only unnecessary, but impossible, to forgive a racial slur under any circumstances. But it's okay to smile when a friend is being sexually humiliated.

But what really gets me, and what made me extremely reluctant to subject myself to her essay given conversations I've had with her in the past, is the idea that people who dislike Lily after DH are therefore misogynists. That is absurd. She has refused, in past conversations, to see that there is a difference between showing and telling in fiction. So, when we complain that we do not actually see friendship from Lily toward Sev - all we see is her dismissing, using or hectoring him, at least after they get to Hogwarts - she says, of course they were friends. We are told they were, so they were. She has also refused to see that (and, though this is subtle, it's there) James is abusive to Lily in the SWM scene. I don't see how those of us who do pick up on this, and are disturbed by it, are misogynist! And finally, she refuses to see or take account of Lily's multiple betrayals of Sev (refusing to listen to him after the werewolf caper, blaming him for what his friends have done, blaming him for things they have done together - altogether, what we see from Lily toward Sev is mostly blame and censure, and the way he clings to her shows exactly how friendless and needy he is) before his major betrayal of her. And it was a major betrayal, certainly. But, if you can't see that Sev had good reason to feel betrayed, and to be angry at Lily, I don't think you are reading what is there.

Finally, there's the question of how Rowling writes her female characters. She writes viragoes and amazons and temptresses; she doesn't write likable, complex and believable women and girls. I thought she was headed there, with Hermione (whom I used to love before HBP) and Luna (whom I still love in spite of DH). But Lily and Ginny and Molly are unlikable female characters, IMHO. This is a failure in Rowling's writing, not in me as a reader, for there are plenty of other flawed, complex female characters I simply adore. As I've said elsewhere, Rowling, to me, seems to deny and denigrate the feminine in multiple ways. Again, my saying this does not make me a misogynist. It makes me critical of how Rowling writes female characters, and how she deals with the feminine in her books. And that's a perfectly okay thing for an adult or young adult reader to do. People should read critically and thoughtfully! They should notice when what we are shown in a text doesn't match what we are told.

Those of us who were taking all the Christian symbolism in the books seriously, were particularly distressed at Lily's failure to forgive. Not her being angry, which was justified; not her failure to forget - I am not sure I would ever forget an insult like that from a friend, and it would certainly change my relationship with them. But simply the failure to forgive. A fellow Catholic who was discussing this on another board said, "Not to forgive is the sin against the Holy Spirit." I think I agree with her. But then, I think a lot of us (myself included, probably) throw around the word "forgiveness" without realizing what it means. And these books are marked by their lack of forgiveness and redemption, IMO.

Thanks for reccing me! I really appreciate this getting linked around, even if not everybody here (of course) understands or agrees. I would, however, urge people who actually want to discuss what I'm talking about or have fault in what I said to state their case at my post and try to stay on topic.

I'll pass on the invitation to debate it, but I'm somewhat annoyed (and insulted) that the charge of misogyny is being levelled in response to criticism of Lily.

There are few admirable characters in canon, either male or female. I was disappointed by all of the female characters, except Luna, from the start. Does that make me a misogynist? Rolwing's view of girls/women is very narrow and stereotypical, IMO.

But I'm not just critical of the female characters: most of the males that looked admirable in the beginning had gone downhill by the end. There's plenty of room for criticism all around, and there's no need to call anyone a misogynist (or a mudblood).

Back to the question of Lily/Sev - preferably without anyone else implying that I'm a misogynist (nor is anyone else on this site) just because I'm not totally enamored with Lily.

I think part of the problem comes from a line that was added onto Movie3. The one where Remus says 'Lily saw the good in everyone'. Not really BookCanon, but it was pretty much accepted as canon because everyone thought JKR wouldn't allow Kloves to add it in if it didn't fit her idea of Lily.

So, many of us were expecting a loyal friend, but also someone who would take the time to understand everything that was going on around her before calling judgement.

And - as I said - my problem really isn't so much with her refusal to accept Sev's apology - it's what she was doing previously to then. Especially since JKR implied that Sev was more 'culpable' over his time as a DE than Tom Riddle because he had once been 'loved' and Tom had not.

As far as we can see, that love did not come from Eileen - he was an obviously neglected child (one can only hope she was so terribly depressed that she could no longer do magic - otherwise there is no reason for that child to be stuck in clothes that didn't fit - and little reason for them to be so wrong in style). This left us with the impression that it was Lily's love that should have saved him - and I just do not 'see' love on Lily's part.

But Sev was used to 'love' being like what his parents had - so I can see where he would accept that disagreements (many disagreements) were all part of 'love'. And he was obviously 'starved' for a friend, so I can see where he would accept a friend who placed blame on him when things went wrong - it sounds a great deal like what happened at home for him - what else would he know?

Even the only clues we get to the 'real' Lily are frustrating - as they only come from Slughorn as he tries to 'collect' Harry. She's supposedly cheeky and funny - I wish JKR had shown us that side of her. Presumably she liked Sev's sense of humor at one time. And she was a whiz at potions apparently. I'm hoping they spent some study time working together on them - unfortunately it sounds as if all of Sev's potions corrections come in his NEWT year - after they have gone their separate ways.

I just do not SEE Lily ever acting like a true 'best friend'. And I think she sent Sev some VERY mixed messages by her gradual warming to James. No, I don't see her as leading Sev on - I think he began to believe that she wanted to be treated badly (since she apparently likes James in spite of his 'bad-boy' attitude) and I think that lead to some of his assumptions that becoming a DE would impress Lily.

I do not think this was AT ALL intentional on Lily's part - but I think Sev was a kid with almost no social smarts. And I think this was the understanding he had as 5th year crawls along.

It should be noted that post-OWL, but pre-SWM, Snape is ALONE. He does not seek out Lily who is playing at the lake edge with 'friends'. He knows by then that these friends are trying to get her to drop him since she has specifically told him such. But it is also important to note that his Slytherin 'friends' - who she so dislikes - are also not there for him. I'd really like to know whether or not he DID try to give them up or not. Whether they are somewhere else outside, or just not even in his 'year' -- Hwyla

The scene began with Snape questioning whether Lily was really his friend. She insisted that she was, but we then learned that

1) She had previously heard Snape's theory about Lupin being a werewolf, but disregarded it although it was demonstrably true. (Surely the regularity of Lupin's bouts of illness is hard to avoid noticing once it's been pointed out.);

2) A few days had passed but they hadn't discussed his near-death, ie she hadn't approached him to see how he was;

3) Her information about the incident originated from his enemies, who had been bullying him since the day they met. (Possibly it came through the medium of rumour or even comments by the staff. But could a friend be unaware of blatant staff favouritism towards the Marauders and/or negligence towards Snape's safety? Any investigation and/or subsequent keeping watch would have prevented the Marauders alike from wandering the grounds for the next two years, and from publicly bullying the victim later that same year.;

4) she had already decided to believe them, without hearing her friend's perspective;

5) she, in fact, refused to hear his perspective;

6) She was more concerned about the prank on Mary Macdonald than about his after a near-death experience;

7) She wanted Snape to dump his other "friends" (ie the Slytherins he sometimes hung out with);

8) The worst she found to accuse Snape of was finding his friends' pranks "funny", not of collaborating with them or even of *watching* them prank people (and not of calling people "Mudblood". That accusation came only *after* she officially dumped him.) "D'you know what he tried to do...?" indicates that Snape was not known to have witnessed it but might have *heard* after the event;

9) She believed the right to criticise or choose the other's friends/companions was hers alone, and took offence when he tried to do the same.

As it happens, Snape was certainly right about Lupin being a werewolf and possibly right about James's involvement in the planning stages of the trick.

(A necessary digression here. We were predisposed to discount Snape's version of events because of Dumbledore's comments in PS, but Dumbledore's complete ignorance of salient facts, like the Cloak, the Map, the bullying, the Marauders' Animagus abilities, and Lupin's access to the school grounds and countryside, render his words worthless. Nothing in Lupin's account or Sirius's contradicts James's involvement: "when James heard what Sirius had done, he went after Snape..." is completely compatible with *when Sirius reported what he'd done so far, James realised there was a flaw in the plan and went after Snape...* (for example). And the Marauders' post-Shack behaviour shows no sign of the animosity, angst and mistrust that one would expect Sirius's apparent betrayal of Lupin to evoke. In fact, James trusts his secret-keeping so implicitly that he entrusts his family's safety to the bigmouth who told Snape how to find Lupin. Is that credible?)

Lily, still calling herself Snape's best friend at the time, prejudged him as wrong on all counts and sided with the bullies against him. She was not interested enough to inquire about his condition or feelings, even when the topic came up in conversation. She did not make clear to him that their friendship was at stake unless he dropped his buddies, nor, as far as we can guess, would she have dumped her other friends to spend more time with him, if he did.

I think the text does suggest that Snape was a more loyal friend. He was clearly more invested in their friendship in that scene than she was. When she started to get angry at his protectiveness, he backtracked immediately. And now that we know he already suspected Lupin was a werewolf (and his friends up to mischief), had tried to warn her and been ignored, the likeliest motive for him entering the tunnel was a hope of finding proof that would make her listen. If he saw Pomfrey lead Lupin into the Shack, as we were told, he'd have had to know that Lupin's presence and condition were sanctioned and the staff would come down hard on anyone who interfered. He doesn't seem to have told anyone else his suspicions - eg his Slytherin friends - unless we suppose Dumbledore Obliviated them afterwards...

duj

I felt randomneses was bashing Snapefen in that essay, but I don't believe there's any point arguing, judging by other of his/her posts that I've read.

I didn't see any evidence in canon that Lily was particularly nice or caring or forgiving, and certainly not that she was inclined to see the best in others. On the contrary, we see her constantly criticising people in canon, painting them in the blackest shades - James is a toerag, Mulciber and Avery are both "evil" and Mulciber is also "creepy" - arguing and scapegoating.

There's nothing misogynistic in saying that Lily is a prettier, more talented version of Petunia. If you strip away the hype from the text, that's what's left. Even Hagrid doesn't say Lily or James were *nice* people - "as good a witch or wizard as I ever knew" is clearly a statement about their magical power, not their characters, in context, as he goes on to say that "the myst'ry is why Y-K-W never tried to get 'em on his side before..."

duj

Oh, and I meant to add to my last comment that I am also annoyed at comments (including some in this very thread!) that accuse us Snapefen of *only* condemning Lily and letting Severus off the hook whenever we criticize Lily in the least. Despite the time many take to explicitly say they are both wronged and both wrong.

Oh, and criticizing Lily =/= hating her. Hard concept to grasp, apparently. (not at anyone here, just snerk in general)

Get a life, people. JFC it's only a book.
Snape was an emo loser who got his bestfriend and woman he was supposedly in love with killed as a result of a lot of his very bad decisions.
Lily loved him, but not enough to forgive his bigotry and NOT IN A ROMANTIC WAY. Lily Evans was Snape's BESTFRIEND, not his FANGIRL.

Take off the fangirl glasses and accept the fact that despite his attempts to redeem himself for getting the only real friend he ever had killed, he still wasn't mature enough not to take revenge on James while he was at it.

ANYONE could have killed Voldemort. ANYONE INCLUDING SNAPE. Get rid of all the horcruxes and Voldemort is back to being a mortal wizard. But he didn't because he was a pussy and a bitter old man.

I'm a fan of Lily, Snape, and randomneses' Summer of Love fanfic, which is a lot of fun to read.

However...

Randomneses writes preDH!Severus and doesn't seem to have integrated DH canon into her view of Severus.

Here's what I mean: Before DH, we saw certain behavior, and without any more information, we assumed the most likely motive for that behavior was blah. But in DH, we're actually directly shown that no, the motive was blee.

In her fic, randomneses continues writing a Severus motivated by blah. That's fun to read, but it doesn't fit with DH canon. Because she insists Severus was motivated by blah, randomneses has often dismissed DH readers' complaints that Lily didn't notice and/or appreciate and/or understand blee.

See what I mean?

That's why I'm not interested in reading her essay. Before DH, we knew almost nothing about Lily; if someone ignores DH, I'm not interested in what they have to say about her.

Personally, I don't hate Lily. I do think she was slightly more to blame for their rift than Severus was, because
(a) she was raised well, and he wasn't. So Lily had more of a chance to see the problem and act to prevent it;
(b) by flirting with James rather than defending Severus from him, Lily betrayed Severus unambiguously before Severus betrayed Lily unambiguously.

BTW. I do see a distinction between showing and telling, but I also try to integrate interview canon into my understanding of the novels. Here's the interview reference for the "flirting" interpretation:

Q: How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.

A: Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I'm saying. [Laughter.]

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-3.htm

Translation: "Lily fancied James, and that should be clear from her behavior during that scene. At least to a woman. Because that's how teenaged girls act."

We readers don't have to agree with JKR about how teenaged girls tend to act when they fancy a boy, but she has made it clear what she thinks.

(Does she also think they should act that way? Given that it's *canon* that she ended up with someone who lied to her, *and* that she died young, I wonder.)

The usual reaction of Snape fangirls is to hate Lily because she's the object of Snape's affection. What's so hard to understand about that? White washing Death Eater intentions, rationalizing pureblood elitist propaganda, and making them sound nicer than they actually are - even though they're nothing but racist terrorists if you look at them in real life - are the norm.

Randomness opened a can of crazy with her essay.

Can opened! Worms...everywhere!

Very interesting rec.

There's a follow up to the recc'ed essay here: http://randomneses.livejournal.com/481351.html

I've put my opinions there. I like Lily. I have my own strong feelings on the subject, and I'm not judging those who don't share them. I'll warn you, it's a total teal doe, though. ;)

PS: Yay, I finally get to use my Snape argument icon! I do not share Snape's opinion, though...I just think it's funny. ;)

Sailorlum's posts are here: http://randomneses.livejournal.com/481351.html?thread=9241927#t9241927

I replied there as well, but I wondered what people here thought.

Sailorlum said that Lily was attracted to both Severus and James, but with each of them there was a dealbreaker. With each of them Lily was hoping he'd change, get rid of the dealbreaker so she could act on her feelings.

I agree -- but that's the problem: she was attracted to them both, at a time when Severus was her best friend and James was Random Guy Who's Tortured Her Best Friend For Years. Severus picked up on that, and he took it as a betrayal. I don't blame him.

Severus' realization of this situation distracted him from Lily's attempts at hinting at what he needed to change (aka his betrayal of her). That's ironic; JKR loves irony. It's also tragic. It's not Lily's fault. It's not Severus' fault either.

Sailorlum said that, in order to get through to Severus, Lily "would have had to spell [her objections] out for [Severus] point blank," and I agree. I don't think this was because of social ineptitude on his part; it was because he was distracted by his other concerns. Not just his justified feeling of betrayal, but also by his concern that Lily might be surprised by a fully transformed werewolf. He had genuine reasons to see the Marauders as evil and dangerous. He was desperate to protect Lily from them. When he saw her, he couldn't shut up about it. Nor could he hear Lily's concerns. He was too focused on his own concerns.

Lily felt the same way about Severus' future-Death-Eater friends. And *behaved* the same way. JKR likes parallels, too.

In "The Prince's Tale," we see Severus so focused on his multifacted (Lily's betrayal + Lily's safety) concerns about James that he can't hear Lily's concerns for him. And we *also* see Lily so focused on her concerns for Severus that she can't hear his concerns for her:

Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape's step...

but also

"It was Dark Magic, and if you think that's funny --"

"What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?

"What's Potter got to do with anything?"

The answer to that question is inherent in the structure of the English language: Bringing up "Potter and his mates" in this context, preceded by "what about," indictates the speaker believes there is no difference.

Having a mutually respectful discussion in which you consider and respond to your friend's concerns now requires Lily to explain either why there is a difference, or why you know what, Potter *is* horrible too and I'll stop encouraging (or, OK, fancying -- because that's what she was doing and what Severus was reacting to) him because what he's done to you *is horrible* BUT listen, Mulciber really bothers *me personally* because he's racist against *my group*, see?

Lily does none of that. Instead she dismisses Severus' concerns: plays dumb (above), speaks "coldly" to him, "raises her eyebrows" as he displays his bitterness (that she likes Potter despite everything Potter has done to him) and finally "cuts across" his speech -- she wants to change the subject back to *her* concerns without even *considering* his. (Because it would be too painful for her to consider his; see below.)

This is "black comedy." I mean. It *is* horrifically tragic, if you engage your empathy for the characters. But it's also, in a very "dark" way, completely hilarious. And this isn't just Severus ignoring Lily -- it's Lily ignoring Severus as well. It's one of JKR's parallels.

Another aspect of "she would have had to spell it out for him point blank" -- well then, why didn't she? It's what Severus needed. She had the family background to have developed the social perception to realize that's what he needed. So why didn't she?

She didn't want to. She wanted him to "change on his own." Since she wanted him to change on his own, the most she could do was hint.

I think part of JKR's reason for having Lily want Severus (and/or James, remember) to "change on his own" was just -- "teenage romantic idealism." I don't think it was an accident that JKR had Lily's desire for someone who would "change on his own" lead her to a man who, *canonically*, *lied to her about having changed* at least for a while. I think JKR is making a point here: Don't give in to this culturally "romantic" idea. I suspect we readers are also supposed to notice that Severus was in fact only missing Lily's hints. She chose to portray Severus as someone who, once he did understand what Lily wanted, did it. I think she was trying to say again: Girls, don't give into this "hint at him until he changes" ideal.

But that's only part of it. Another, larger part of it may have been: Lily didn't want to have to tell Severus point blank because she didn't want to admit he needed that. If he needed that, he was willing to consider racism. He was willing to consider racism...and this was her best friend?

I can't blame her for that. The very thought Severus would even consider these ideas was horribly painful to her. Of course it was!

I don't blame her. I do think, though, that coping with this through denial, or even through just dropping the friend, is a more "black and white," teenage type reaction. Another possible reaction is to feel your own pain at the situation, and yet also, at the same time, feel empathy for your friend whose negative experiences with every Muggle or even Muggle-supporter he's ever known other than you make it hard for him to resist these prejudiced ideas.

A person can do that. Could teenage Lily have? Regardless of whether she could have, it's what Severus needed. *Should* she have? Well, she was only human. I don't blame her for not. But I do see that Severus gave in because he had no one to do that for him.

Severus' problem, in the end, was that he had no *adult* to love him / give him what he needed. He had Lily, a peer, and her love helped him...but in the end, kids can't raise themselves. To grow up healthy, you need a parent[al figure], not just a peer.

So not Lily's fault. But not Severus' fault either.

This is something that annoyed me about DH when I first read it. I had been thinking of Snape as, and wanting him to be, someone who had choices, made bad choices, and then chose to change. But DH gave him *so* many negative influences that realistically, it gave him no options. It turned him into a pawn. It made him into someone who'd been railroaded into his bad choices by life / bad luck, and who'd been manipulated into his good choices by Dumbledore. It was annoying. I felt like JKR had finally given in to woobieing up a popular anti-hero character as so many series authors do.

By now I've come to terms with DH. It's depressingly deterministic and bleak, but it is also realistic. The "three abandoned boys" are in line with real-world attachment theory: Harry gets loving parents for the first 14 months, so he assimilates into normal society; Tom gets emotional neglect from birth, so he's a complete sociopath; Severus gets inconsistent parental care and one peer attachment, so he has lifelong problems but isn't a sociopath. (If anyone wants to read a good summary of current attachment research, try The Boy Who Was Raised As a Dog by Perry and Szalavitz.)

"People...
sylvanawood: 12/1/09 09:39 am

...how long have you been around here now?

IGNORE THE TROLL!

What do you expect if you link to such an article on HP Essays and want to discuss it?"

I just saw sylvanwood's comment about the current ruckus and would like to say, I had *no idea* that my innocent linky would result in such a landslide of nastiness from so many people outside of the group. I would never have done it if I'd known, truly. If I envisioned anything, it was perhaps a small discussion about how other people in the HP fandom see our favorite character. I do humbly apologize to the other members of this group; truly I unwittingly opened a can of worms!
Alison