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With regard to the request Severus made of Voldemort:
The assumption that Severus had the ability here to save all three people in question is, upon a careful examination of the facts, simply insupportable. Let us recall the positions of everyone involved.
- Voldemort: ruthless megalomaniac willing to torture and kill anyone standing in his way, including his own followers. Determined to kill the child of prophecy.
- Dumbledore: powerful wizard standing in direct, outspoken opposition to Voldemort, though he is apparently willing to lie to and manipulate anyone, including his own followers, if he thinks it is for the greater good.
- Severus: Voldemort's (at least nominal) follower though he does not trust Voldemort to actually grant him what he asks.
- Lily and James: Dumbledore's followers who were thus Voldemort's declared enemies and who had personally at this point in time openly defied him at least three times (either singly or together, this is unclear).
- Harry: their infant son, the subject of the prophecy as interpreted by Voldemort and thus his direct target.
Now, I think it ought to be obvious (but apparently it isn't) that there was nothing Severus could do in this instance to save Harry (and thus nothing he could do to condemn him). He knew that Voldemort believed the boy to be the one prophesied to vanquish him, a future but direct threat that Voldemort intended to do away with before he could become an immediate threat. Asking for the child's life would have been pointless. Voldemort, we are told IIRC, normally did not randomly kill children, so it is a measure of how serious he deemed the threat Harry supposedly posed to him that he was determined to kill him outright. What on earth could a young, talented but poor and otherwise ordinary follower have offered him to convince him to spare the boy? Nothing. Simply asking would in all likelihood have earned Severus an Avada Kedavra, or at the very least a few rounds of Cruciatus and a heap of suspicion for his pains, and would not have resulted in Harry's life being spared in any case. (Perhaps Severus could have gone to the Potters, stood in their doorway, and tried to fight against Voldemort, but he had no hope of defeating him and would simply have been AK'd in any case, thus contributing nothing materially towards the Potters' defense at all.)
This is where I think Dumbledore's argument is disingenuous, and in fact specious. "Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?” he asks - ignoring the fact that Severus was never in any position to make such an exchange. He never had Harry's life (or James' for that matter) in a way that he could offer it to Voldemort "in exchange" for Lily's. We are not talking about hostages here, or Severus possessing information that would lead Voldemort to a child otherwise hidden/protected from him, or anything like that. They are all at risk, and the choice Severus has is merely to ask or not ask for their lives, singly or together. The possibilities (that Severus could calculate) were:
- Severus does nothing, all three die
- Severus asks Voldemort to spare Lily; assuming Voldemort complies, she lives and Harry and James die
- Severus asks for James' life, Lily and Harry die
- Severus asks for James and Lily's lives, Harry dies
- Severus asks for Harry's life, with or without the lives of one/both of the parents, Severus (likely) dies or is tortured and probably comes under suspicion of wavering faith, Harry and probably both his parents die
- Severus asks for Lily and/or James' lives, Voldemort does not comply, all three die, Severus possibly dies or is possibly tortured, probably comes under suspicion
- Severus asks for both Lily and James' lives, Voldemort partially complies, Harry and one of his parents (Voldemort's choice) die
Really, Dumbledore's argument here that Severus traded Harry for Lily is so fundamentally unsound that it comes across as slightly out of characer to me (even for manipulative!Dumbledore). It honestly reads to me like authorial insertion, JKR attempting to paint Severus in the blackest of colors without regard to logic or the actual established facts of her world, more than anything else. The fact that Severus stammeringly replies to Dumbledore's argument with the vague "I have - I have asked him -" rather than an attempt to point out that he in fact could not offer such an exchange merely speaks to me of the depths of his distress here, compounded by the guilt he is likely feeling for reporting the half-prophecy at all. So the argument that Severus chose to sacrifice the life of an infant in return for Lily's when he made his request of Voldemort simply doesn't hold up. Harry was going to die no matter what he did, and he could not have chosen to sacrifice someone he never had a possibility of protecting in the first place. Nothing he could have said would have impacted Harry's fate (so far as he knew) one way or the other.
Did Severus have the option, when he spoke with Voldemort, to spare James' life? This is a slightly murkier issue. We know that he assumed (knew?) that Voldemort meant to kill "them all," meaning not just Harry but James and Lily as well. We know that James and Lily had set themselves in direct opposition to Voldemort and had previously defied him thrice, thus in all likelihood earning them spots on his general hit list, and we know that Severus knew this (since he understood why Voldemort thought the prophecy referred to their child in particular). He obviously thought that he had some chance of sparing at least one of the two adults, since he dared ask for Lily's life; but he also did not ultimately trust Voldemort enough to actually spare either of them (else he would not have approached Dumbledore). We don't know if James and Lily had each defied Voldemort thrice, or only as a couple (that is, we do not know if one of them was considered a greater threat than the other by Voldemort, or if they were seen as equally troublesome). Lacking clearer indicators, it's probably best to assume that James and Lily were roughly of equal importance to Voldemort as enemies of his. If we take interviews as canon, however, one of the three defiances was Lily's refusal to join the Death Eaters - given no corresponding defiance by James alone, this probably slightly tilts the balance against any possibility that she was of less importance to Voldemort and thus safer to ask for/more likely to be spared.
Taking factors other than personal defiance into account: James is the only scion of a noble, wealthy old pureblood family, and a blood traitor, in the eyes of Voldemort's henchmen - though until recently a Potter was apparently considered a perfectly acceptable match for Dorea Black. We know James' father was in Gryffindor, and so unlikely to be of similar opinions as the DEs (though it's not utterly impossible); we know nothing about his mother. Lily was a (seemingly lower middle-class) Muggleborn, and a very powerful and talented witch apparently considered worthy of joining Voldemort's ranks despite her blood status. I think it slightly more probable that Voldemort would be willing to consider sparing a powerful and talented Muggleborn witch (whose wellbeing, by the way, would provide a very handy leash for an equally powerful and talented follower of his own) he had already tried to recruit than a wealthy (read: resource-providing) blood traitor who had, to all indications, thoroughly and ostentatiously distanced himself from any pureblood-supremacist factions and who even as a student was an outspoken opponent of the Dark Arts (whatever they may be), Voldemort's, ah, special hobby. This tilts the balance back towards equilibrium, I think.
So, all things considered, if he were to ask for only one of the adults, Severus might have had roughly equal chances of saving James as he would have of saving Lily. Possibly he had greater chances asking for Lily anyway, depending on how much weight Voldemort gave the 'leash' possibility and how much Severus spun his request as an attempt to revenge himself on Lily herself (as terri_testing has him do in one of her fics), and/or on James through Lily. However, I think it is quite clear that he was not going to not ask for Lily in any case, considering the fact that it was danger to her specifically that motivated him to risk his life and approach Voldemort at all. So what were his chances of having both of them spared?
I rather doubt that they were as high as all that, given what we know about Voldemort and his targets. One life (perhaps especially Lily's?): possible. Voldemort can always kill her later (Voldemort would tell himself), and there are possibilites for manipulation of Severus, for Imperiusing or converting the woman, etc. Both: doubtful. They are already his declared enemies, and are bound to be further radicalized by the murder of their only child. Even if they do not pose the sort of direct threat to him that the child does, they are a threat to his followers, an annoyance, part of the little army his major opponent has put together against him, etc. Plus there's no telling if the child is a one-off, or if there is some special power this particular couple holds that allows them to produce supremely powerful children capable of defeating him; best not to take the risk, strategically speaking. I just really, really don't see Voldemort agreeing to spare both of them, no matter how hard Severus begs. And Severus is neither unobservant nor an imbecile; he probably suspects that his chances of success decrease in inverse proportion to how many lives he requests, generally speaking. Voldemort is not known for his generosity and compassion towards enemies, after all (nor towards followers who step out of line). So, given that Severus was going to ask for Lily's life in any case if he was going to ask at all, it is rather doubtful that he could have successfully asked for James' life as well. It's (just about) possible that he could have saved him, but unlikely, and he probably knew it (leaving aside his feelings about James for the moment).
Thus, his chances of saving anyone in this particular situation:
- Harry: nil
- James alone: possible, but not an option Severus would have considered (and one that raises the same moral issues that saving Lily alone does, given that all three are at risk)
- Lily alone: possible (quite possibly his best shot from a purely strategic perspective, though of course Severus was not working from such a POV)
- James and Lily: perhaps possible, but unlikely; an option we might expect/hope Severus to consider, morally speaking, but one he is not likely to have actually thought about when he spoke to Voldemort
So - first off - IF Voldy spares James this time, he really isn't useful as a 'threat' over Snape's head - not like Lily could be.
And secondly, asking Voldy to save your enemy is NOT normal DE behavior. Sure to raise suspicions just for asking.
On the other hand, it is also likely that these same DEs that were at school with Snape, know that he and Lily were once friends. And just by asking for her life Snape proves that she would be a valuable 'tool' to keep him in line. --Hwyla
Peter WAS able to TRY to convince Voldy to use someone other than Harry for the 'Blood of the Enemy', but in the end the Life Debt did not FORCE one to pay it back (as seen when Peter is reminded of the debt in DH - he hesitates when it is brought up, but it didn't prevent him from attempting harm (not in DHs and not in GoF)
Adding to that, I do not believe there really WAS a Life Debt incurred between Lames (oooo! a typo I 'like') and Snape, since I believe James' main objective was in saving Remus.- Hwyla
life debts
Harry, in restraining 2 adults from committing murder, incurred a life debt.
Harry and Ron risked death (to themselves and Hermione) to pull Malfoy and Goyle from a burning room, and did not?
That makes the whole thing entirely incoherent. It's not about saving an enemy, it's not about risking onself to do so....
I think the simplest explanation is that magically there is no such thing. There is a human tendency to honor someone for saving one at risk to their own life, but it's not a magical bond but an emotional one.
The rest was DD talking through his hat. Consider: First year, Albus didn't know that a full investigation into Severus's death would have revealed the Marauders to be illegal Animagi using their sorcery to loose a werewolf on an innocent village. But he did know that even on the best reading of the situation (assuming Severus to have been wrong in believing all the Marauders to have planned the "joke"), James's two best friends were facing AT THE LEAST expulsion and wand-breaking, more likely Azkaban. Even if DD didn't know James was saving his own skin, he knew James was saving Sirius and Remus's. Did DD really think that saving his dearest friend from prison for committing murder incurred a life debt in the victim?
And the highly edited version DD gave Harry was very carefully designed to ensure that HARRY didn't feel HE owed anything to PROFESSOR SNAPE for repeatedly acting to protect him from Quirrell, not even the barest respect. Had DD said nothing, Harry would have been left only with the knowledge that Snape had endured danger and dishonor to protect a kid he didn't even like, his own worst enemy's son. But with a few well-chosen words, DD reversed the situation. SNAPE had owed Harry's father a life debt; anything he does to protect Harry is only in belated and inadequate repayment of that debt. And Snape wouldn't even do that except he wants to hate noble enemy-saving James in peace. He's not doing it for Harry, or out of duty, or even out of a sense of honor; he's doing it in service of his grudge.
It's practically an instruction manual in how to accept Snape's continued protection without ever giving him any credit for it.
As to Pettigrew--Harry was horrified that stopping Sirius and Remus from killing Pettigrew "makes it my fault if Voldemort comes back!"
DD wants to reassure Harry, he can't do so on the facts, and he urgently wants to get Harry off the topic of Sybil's second prophecy. Which might lead to awkward questions about her first. He's already filled the boy's ears once with a story about life debts--make the boy's role in Pettigrew's escape into a virtue, that should distract him. So, "the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." Well, we saw how that panned out. Peter had no problems with misusing Harry to make that vile potion; and only because Voldemort's silver hand was ensorcelled to punish Peter for the barest flicker of hesitation, did Peter's conscience have any effect at all.
*
However, I take it back; there's one explanation that make our 3 instances coherent. And it's even uglier than the supposition that DD's flat-out lying to Harry.
If my friend wants to kill our mutual enemy, and I stop the murder: then the victim owes me a life debt. If I save someone, friend, stranger, or enemy, under any other circumstances, they're free as a bird of any debt. It's only incurred by attempted murder, and only if the prospective murderer is one's own friend or ally (or saving Goyle from Crabbe's Fiendfyre would surely count).
Which is... interestingly twisted. Saving my friend from becoming a murderer (and myself from being an accessory) puts the victim magically, permanently, in my debt?
I think I'd rather think DD was lying.
Re: life debts
Ick. Oh ick ick ick.
And word about the instruction manual.
Re: life debts
Re: life debts
Moreover, the murder wasn't prevented--just the principal actor shifted.
No problems at all, magically.
(Certainly Dumbledore's portrait/projection in Harry's mind didn't seem to think so. And he/they should know.)
Re: life debts
This phrase from Dumbledore puzzled me for ages...
I think Dumbles is talking of the possibility that Voldemort could offer to let Lily live if she stepped aside and gave him Harry without a fight. As in "Couldn't you have asked your master to offer the mother a chance to exchange her life for her son's?"
Now, I don't think that Severus did anything other than ask for Lily to be spared. I suppose he could have offered up such a plan to Voldemort, but I have a feeling that Severus was freaked out enough that just asking to have her spared may have been hard enough for him. He may not have thought to even make such a suggestion, whether he would have made it (if he had pulled enough wits together to think of it) or not.
I agree that Severus was probably just as confused by Dumbles question as we are, and did his best to answer in his distress.
Unfortunately, it's absurd. "Couldn't you ask Voldemort to spare Lily? For instance, couldn't you propose that he should let her live if, and only if, she hands him her son in exchange? It'd really help the plot if you had." This conversation brought to you by the letters W, T and F. Snape may not have received any mother love, but I'm sure he's heard of it. Whether he cares about the life of an innocent baby, it's hardly rocket science to figure out that Lily would, and asking for her to be spared on those terms is worse than useless.
The basic problem is that Lily's Sacrifice(TM) is such a contrived setup. For it to work there must be someone, at some point, who seriously thinks there's a chance that Lily might agree to let her child be killed provided she gets to survive. Whatever Dumbledore believes -- or more likely pretends to believe -- that someone is too delusional to be Snape. It's not a question of his morality, it's about not being a total whackjob.
I agree, for the reasons you mention, that Snape asked nothing more complicated than for Lily to be spared, and that's what he's trying to communicate. Dumbledore has his own, manipulative reasons to interpret "I have asked him" as, "Why yes, I asked him to spare her on the ridiculously counterproductive terms that you suggest". Why should Snape set any conditions at all? It's far more believable that Lord What-Is-This-Thing-You-Call-Love himself came up with the idea of the exchange, and Snape went, "Anything you say, my Lord", while backing away slowly.
-L
The one thing that may have hidden the family (perhaps out in the back yard or something, under the invisibility cloak) and kept them safe for the time Voldemort was searching for them, they did not in fact have with them.
I wonder if Dumbledore, from the time he heard the prophecy, decided to force the issue with Voldemort by having him attempt to murder Harry? Could he perhaps have known and been counting on the sacrificial magic of Lily? In which case, he would be apprehensive that Severus might spoil his plan (Lily's sacrifice=Voldemort's defeat) by begging V to save Lily.
Alison
Very interesting thoughts though! :) Unfortunately for JKR, the evidence she gives us still holds up a rather disturbing picture of Dumbledore...Jodel has a theory similar to yours over on the Red Hen. Wow is all I could say. Just wow.
Alison
I think the theory is scattered among some of the essays in the Unhallowed Collection there. All her stuff on the Potterverse is accessed on the sidebar anyway. *g*
Unfortunately (for me, anyway), the last time I looked, a lot of the site text was done in graphics, not resizable "real" text, and lots of stuff in PDFs which look nice and all but are rather huge filesizes (bad for dialup). I sent her an email once expressing my difficulty reading her site and she said (paraphrase) no one else ever seemed to have any problems with it so what was my damage. mrr.
- Harry only has to almost 'die' because of the Harrycrux, yes? Otherwise Harry would have nothing to do with the Dark Lord's defeat.
- He just 'almost' dies only because of Lily's Love Protection and Voldemort's attempt to get rid of that factor by taking his blood. Otherwise he'd be toast, and the Harrycrux disabled anyway.
- He only survives the final confrontation because of the Elder Wand mastery, something that Dumbles had before and that Harry gets almost by accident. This mastery leads to Voldemort killing himself essentially.
- the only other thing aside from Harrycrux keeping Voldie alive before that were the other Horcruxes
- Harry himself does NOT have to destroy the other Horcruxes - Ron, Dumbledore, and Crabbe's Fiendfyre, for example, all destroy Horcruxes
Subtract Harry and the Harrycrux from the equation for a moment - go back to before the attack. Voldie has several Horcruxes, which anyone apparently can disable given the right tools. Dumbles has the Elder Wand and mastery of it. Now suppose Severus does not report the prophecy: Harrycrux is never created, Lily's protection never created.
If Dumbles were to hunt down and destroy the other Horcruxes, and then go head-to-head with Voldie, he stands a good chance of winning. If Voldie somehow got the Elder Wand, but Dumbles retained mastery of it, and *then* they faced off, I bet it would go down *exactly* like it did in DH. Voldie would be toast.
Harry has nothing to do with it all *anyway,* I'm saying. He's an additional complication, nothing more. The only reason he *becomes* important is because of dratted self-fulfilling prophecies! Harry functions, tactically speaking, merely as another object. His ability to come back and kill Voldie *himself* is the coincidental result of another string of events. After the Harrycrux was disabled, for all we know, *Severus* could have killed Voldie!
The only thing, really, keeping Voldie in power all that time before Godric's Hollow was the fact that apparently nobody had twigged to his Horcrux collecting mania. The only way I can see that Severus saved the world by reporting the prophecy is if you take the Harrycrux as Dumbles' wake-up call about the possibility of Voldie using Horcruxes at all.
*shrug* Now, you want to talk Severus saving the world by sacrificing himself so that the Hero(TM) had the information he needed during the *second* battle, I'm totally with you. :)
But I agree that had Harry not become a Horcrux it would have probably come down to a showdown of Dumbledore and Voldemort, with the Elder Wand giving its true master an edge.
OTOH how would Dumbledore have known Voldemort had these Horcruxes if Voldemort hadn't been vaporized one way or another? Well, I suppose Slughorn could have decided to come clean at some point. Or someone could have tried to kill Voldemort thus exposing the existence of at least one Horcrux.
WRT your first point: I'm not actually completely convinced, in canon, that Harry's sacrifice had any effect on the defenders. Neville possibly, though I think he also could have perhaps done that through an extreme effort of his own will. He's not a *weak* wizard, after all, just a nervous one with Snape. Beyond that, IIRC Harry is in the Great Hall *casting shield charms* from under the invisibility cloak. That's why the defenders are protected.
But you raise a good question: Had Severus not been present at the time Trelawney made her prophecy (and for the sake of this argument let's assume the Powers of Prophecy have her make exactly the same pronouncement) - what does Albus do, and could his actions have caused the prophecy to come true? For example - suppose he decides to train Harry and Neville especially for their destined roles, does Voldemort notice and decide to attack them? Does Rookwood report to Voldemort that a prophecy about him and an unnamed other showed up at the DOM?
Some very interesting possibilities wrt Dumbles! :)
Unless being master of the Elder Wand allows one to cast extra-super-magic with one's regular wand? But if so then Dumbledore is a worse idiot than I can imagine. He should have never used the Elder Wand in public. He should have hidden it away in 1945 and used its extra-super-powers with his regular wand, to make the Elder Wand harder to trace down. So then during Easter 1998 Voldemort finds the other wand in the tomb, and it matches the wand he saw Dumbledore using in the Department of Mysteries - he thinks the idiot Dumbledore must have lost the Elder Wand in some bar fight long ago and frets about how to find out who did it, and Severus is safe.
But I don't think this is the case, there is a point to Harry using the Elder Wand to repair his broken holly wand and then putting it away. To have the Elder Wand's super-powers one must actually use the Elder Wand. So Harry's shields couldn't have blocked AKs had the DEs been willing to cast them. More likely the defenders survived because most DEs lost the will to fight when they saw that Harry survived an AK again. And Voldemort was rendered mostly harmless by Harry's sacrificial death. Bellatrix was really the most dangerous person around in the second round of fighting, maybe Dolohov too.
DE's lost the will to fight?
Actually, we saw the exact same thing in the fight at the DoM: many DE’s (unlike a lot of Muggle soldiers) apparently just don’t have what it takes to kill kids, even when their own lives are at stake. In my essay “Death Eaters in the Seventies,” I have an analysis of what curses/jinxes DE’s threw in the fight in OotP, and it was the Azkaban escapees—primarily the Lestranges and Dolohov, as here—who brought themselves to use Unforgivables or other really violent curses against the kids. Only those whose souls had been deadened by prolonged exposure to Dementors, or the Imperiused, were really good at using true nasties.
And bear in mind only four DE’s ever really demonstrated that him back—all of his other free followers as of October 1981 were content to leave him in exile. I cannot imagine that the management style we saw displayed in DH changed anyone’s mind on that. So even before Harry’s resurrection, many of Riddle’s human followers were there more out of fear than out of passionate conviction. So they wouldn’t have had much “will to fight” to start with.
Re: DE's lost the will to fight?
Re: DE's lost the will to fight?
The Carrows I rather see as damaged, possibly by the type of abuse Snape suffered, and willing to visit their revenge on the people who represent their own abusers. It's remarkable that although the Carrows rant about filthy, subhuman Muggles and Mudbloods, they actually torture fellow Purebloods.
It also would not surprise me at all to learn that Tom ARRANGED short stints in Azkaban for his lesser followers, like the Carrows. They would come out intellectually embittered against the MoM (assuming they didn't know Tom's complicity) and damaged/soul-deadened by prolonged exposure to Dementors. There's absolutely no canon support for this, but really: we have no reason to imagine Stan Shunpike a willing DE when Scrimgeour nabbled him. But after months of injust incarceration, if someone offered him revenge....? And that's after the Dementors are no longer the guards.
Vince is a little harder; Draco clearly saw something in him to mourn, but what was it? That he knew he was worthless in himself and was trying to attach himself to the only larger-than-him cause that would accept him, is the kindest I can manage.
On the other hand, the Carrows and Crabbes are also represented as being among the STUPIDEST people in canon. I'd expect them to be among the slowest to figure out whether they really want the world according to Tom.....
Re: DE's lost the will to fight?
And Alecto was deeply offended when Neville implied she had some Muggle ancestry somewhere.
Draco mourning Vincent: They were friends for years. That should be enough, I think.
On the other hand, the Carrows and Crabbes are also represented as being among the STUPIDEST people in canon.
That's Goyle, the one who can hardly write. You-Won't-Know-Who has an essay about how each of the Horcruxes represents one of the 7 mortal sins - in the nature of the object, the actions of its last owner before Tom and the person who destroyed it. The diadem represents sloth because it is a short-cut to wisdom and she has Crabbe underachieving out of laziness while Goyle is so out of lack of ability. Lucius found Crabbe Sr suitable to take on his Ministry raid but not Goyle Sr, and in the end Vincent shows more independent thought than Gregory, though unfortunately not for a good cause.
Anyway Sirius' grandmother was a Crabbe, I don't think either of the 5 Blacks of his generation inherited low intelligence.
Re: DE's lost the will to fight?
I can see the opportunists fighting half-heartedly but the naturally sadistic wouldn't mind, at least in the first round, and the Imperio victims' behavior would be similar to the one who Imperioed them. Who apparently was Yaxley - whose known Azkaban experience is about a month or so without dementors - so maybe Thicknesse and his like didn't cause much injury.
Anyway I'd say in the first round the deaths and serious injuries were caused by many of the original DEs as well as new joiners while during the fighting in the Great Hall only a handful were still fighting in earnest - probably only those who had both the cruelty to kill and the ideological attachment to the cause and Fenrir who isn't there for winning Voldemort's cause anyway. I imagine that most of the new joiners escaped if they could as the crowd entered the castle.
Had Severus not been present....
From what I can see, it’s ALBUS’s believing (or pretending to believe) the prophecy that first makes it important. First there’s the argument that Albus deliberately let Snape go without Obliviating him in order to have him hand half of the Prophecy to Tom as a trap. But leaving that aside, Albus immediately hired Trelawney (in effect, rushing her into protective custody) and subsequently worked to protect the people who might have been the subjects of it. Which, of course, let TOM know that he ought to take the matter seriously.
If Rookwood was in a position to report that the record of a prophecy about the Dark Lord had appeared in the DoM, I think most everything would have played out much the same except for the extent of Snape’s feelings of guilt. Tom, on finding out that Dumbledore had unexpectedly hired Trelawney instead of dissolving the position as he’d planned, would have deduced that DD had been the auditor and watched DD for any clues to the prophecy. (Assuming he couldn’t get hold of the record, which WOULD likely have changed matters.) When DD started protecting two newborn babies, Tom would have targeted them.
When Snape found out that the Potters had become specific rather than general targets, he still would have asked for Lily’s life (with even less hope of the request being granted), and then run to DD with his warning (since he’d be unlikely to be aware that it was DD’s actions which led Tom to Lily in the first place). And Snape still would have been first desperate about Lily’s danger, and later senseless with grief at Lily’s death, and still would have been manipulated by Albus into first pledging “anything” and then devoting himself to protecting her baby.
Re: Had Severus not been present....
Had Severus not been there, but a prophecy record did show up (assuming they are automatically created) then either Voldemort finds out the entire prophecy - by getting the record or from Trelawney or he just knows that it exists but not its contents. Hiring Trelawney should still happen, but perhaps there isn't a point to protecting the families more than usual for people with a history of fighting Voldemort who have children they want to keep safe.
Voluntarily? I.e. he let himself be killed in this way rather than escaping and having to become a fugitive, and surely Voldemort would have got him and killed him eventually (as Sirius seems to think had actually happened) and he'd rather die on his own terms?
Offering Lily the choice
So Severus conned the Dark Lord into offering Lily that chance by making it look like an opportunity to add psychological torture to the straightforward murder. Riddle didn't really expect Lily to step aside, but offering her the choice was a way to play with her--and then later with Severus, who would have to thank his Master for so mercifully offering her the chance, even if she refused to take it.
Because of course, if Riddle ever had any intention of sparing Lily (to use her as a hold on Snape or whatever), he'd have just stunned her without the rigmarole.
Could you not ask for mercy, in exchange?
Actually, there is a way to interpret this that makes some sense: Dumbledore is rubbing it in that Snape has ALREADY effectively given Lily’s son to Voldemort by passing on the Prophecy. We know of nothing else that Snape might have done for Voldie that might merit the reward of Lily’s life. So mercy for Lily would be granted, if at all, in exchange for Snape’s having passed on that critically-important information about Voldemort’s prophesied vanquisher.
Suppose Snape had originally assumed the “one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord” who “approaches” to be some hotshot young wizard or witch with a family grudge against Voldie (and realistically, people have had forty years or more to rack up grudges against Voldie—and he’s reputed to have come from somewhere on the Continent twenty years ago, though he speaks English without an accent now). In that case it might have come—for anyone with any vestiges of a conscience it must have come—as an emotional shock to discover that one had painted a target on a baby’s back. It’s one thing to relay information about an unknown enemy soldier to your superior officer; sending someone to kill a baby is something else entirely. Least of all the baby of someone one loves, or even of acquaintances (that last being the story DD fed Harry in “The Seer Overheard” chapter of HBP).
(And IMO that 18-to-24 month gap between the Prophecy and Tom finally catching up with the Potters makes more sense if Tom originally spent a lot of time doing the Wizarding equivalent of watching the ports. But Tom knew that Snape hadn’t heard the whole Prophecy and that Dumbledore had, so he also set his spies on Albus to try to determine who DUMBLEDORE thought his approaching champion was. And eventually Tom noticed that the Order showed no interest in recruiting foreigners, but that Albus WAS hiding several of his followers who had children born at the end of that July…. Indeed, Albus might first have hidden information on WW BIRTHS at the end of July. Aha!)
In which case, Dumbledore spoke of “an exchange” to Severus to guilt-trip him: to remind Severus that he was responsible for Lily’s son’s danger in the first place, that getting Voldemort to spare Lily would, in effect, be exchanging her son’s life for hers, and that Lily would see it in that light and hate it (and him).
Whether Severus could actually comprehend that all of DD's delicate implications at the time, as upset as he was, I should doubt. But I imagine he appreciated them later.
Quite true, and I hadn't thought about it in exactly this way before. I mean, I understood that Dumbledore was putting foul words in Severus's mouth, but really, "exchange" implies that Severus somehow had the power to stop Voldemort doing whatever he felt like: "You can kill Harry if I can have Lily alive. Deal?" As if! Voldemort doesn't need Severus's permission to do that.
Plus there's no telling if the child is a one-off, or if there is some special power this particular couple holds that allows them to produce supremely powerful children capable of defeating him; best not to take the risk, strategically speaking.
While I agree, I don't know if one can make a case that Voldemort is a good strategist. ^_-
We don't know precisely why Severus himself reported it, after all!
The most logical reason is that he was a genuinely faithful follower and, hearing something that obviously concerned his Lord (even if he didn't understand or think through the implications), brought him the news. In other words, he did his job.
But if he's assigned the spy mission in Junish'79 (implied by his comment in SpinnersEnd) then Albus (who knows full well that the DADA job is jinxed) would have already filled the position before Snape could even apply.
Then next Fall/earlyWinter'79 sometime he over hears the prophecy. We have Sybil's comment on how she believes he was looking for tips on interviews - presumably because either Albus gave her that as a reason or Snape used it as a reason when caught. Admittedly Snape COULD have given it as a reason later on, if he applies after this, but I didn't get the feeling that Snape had ever seen Albus again, between the time of the eavesdropping and the meeting on the hillside. And personally, I highly doubt Albus would even allow Snape to HAVE an interview after the eavesdropping.
But we know from Bella that Snape was fully allowed by Voldy to 'not participate' in DE raids etc. In other words, he was allowed to avoid such stuff because he was assigned the job of spying. Wouldn't do to have him discovered to be a DE when he's trying to get a position up at Hogwarts.
So, Snape is caught eavesdropping and the likelyhood that he will ever gain Albus' trust has just become nil - in other words, at the time it appears that he will not be able to complete his assignment, but he has a prophecy as the only bit of success he has to offer. -- Hwyla
Unfortunately for Snape, Albus DID apparently figure him to be a DE (as shown on the hillside). However, I don't think VOLDY knew that.
And I don't think there had to be a big plan scheduled for that particular year. Voldy had been at war for 9 years already. I think Snape was uniquely qualified as a possible spy, just by being an exceptionally bright half-blood. He apparently meets the intelligence criteria and Voldy was careful of Snape's reputation by allowing him to sit out raids and such (as we hear from Bella)
I don't really see any other reason to allow Snape (from the beginning of his DE days) to avoid the risks other DEs take unless it was because Voldy had hopes of placing him in a position to spy.
And IF Snape gets into the DADA position, IF Voldy really WANTED him to stay at Hogwarts, then he could certainly change the curse to allow it. But instead, Snape gets the Potions spot, even better in Voldy's mind! Snape can stay and spy long-term without the need to change the curse on DADA.
What I don't understand is why Voldy would then allow Snape to not take part in any of the risks the other DEs take if he hasn't already decided that Snape should become his spy on Albus. I cannot see a reason why he would let Snape sit out those risks for at least 2 years (Jun'79 to Sept'81 - -okay maybe a few months less as long since Sev probably knew he was getting the job sometime in Sp'81)
I also cannot see Albus bringing Snape into a teaching position so quickly after the meeting on the hillside. For 'me' it makes much more sense IF Snape has been Albus' spy since LateWinter/earlySpring'80. I do not see the Albus on the hillside who was so disgusted with Snape, allowing him in to teach children within 6 months. A year and a half of working together? THEN I can see it. --Hwyla
Are you saying Severus decided to attempt to become DADA teacher out of his own initiative, without input from Voldemort? Because I can't see Voldemort planting an agent at Hogwarts, especially when he only has one academic year in which to operate, without having a specific grand plan for said agent. He sent Quirrell for the Stone, he sent Barty for Harry's blood (couldn't he bleed Harry and send a flask by owl?)
Before the prophecy I can see Voldemort want to be the one to kill Dumbleodre himself. The prophecy made Harry more important than Dumbledore, so he could leave that job to an agent as long as he killed the would-be vanquisher himself. At most, pre-prophecy he'd have wanted to create chaos so that Dumbledore is evicted from Hogwarts in disgrace so that Voldemort could corner him and kill him - but he had to be ready, and I don't think he was. We know there was a new Minister appointed in 1980, which makes me think the war only got upgraded from a nuisance to serious business to the general wizarding public (as opposed to Dumbledore's political circle) in 1979.
What I don't understand is why Voldy would then allow Snape to not take part in any of the risks the other DEs take if he hasn't already decided that Snape should become his spy on Albus. I cannot see a reason why he would let Snape sit out those risks for at least 2 years (Jun'79 to Sept'81 - -okay maybe a few months less as long since Sev probably knew he was getting the job sometime in Sp'81)
He wanted Severus for more than a spy. He wanted him as a saboteur and after the prophecy as an assassin. So he was willing to cultivate him as long as was needed until the right opportunity presented itself.
I also cannot see Albus bringing Snape into a teaching position so quickly after the meeting on the hillside. For 'me' it makes much more sense IF Snape has been Albus' spy since LateWinter/earlySpring'80. I do not see the Albus on the hillside who was so disgusted with Snape, allowing him in to teach children within 6 months.
I actually do. Look at the other people he hired.
About your above comment - I do not see Snape going for the DADA position on his own. I DO see it as on Voldy's orders. But I do not see why there MUST be a plan that would finish in a year. Voldy wants a spy on Albus - IF Snape can get the job, then Voldy could always lift the curse and Snape would then not need to leave at the end of the year.
Instead, Snape eventually landed a job that DID allow him to stay, so Voldy didn't need to change the curse. And by the time Snape actually GOT the DADA job, it seems he would no longer NEED a spy on Albus, because Albus would be dead. Therefore - no need to change the curse either in Voldy's mind -- Hwyla
Voldy could always lift the curse?
It seems possible that even Voldie himself couldn’t lift the curse, since Quirrell died and Barty was Kissed—the worst fates of any of the DADA teachers. Of course, possibly he considered both wizards expendable and voluntarily chose not to lift it—I had Severus argue in my story “His Servant’s Return” that Riddle would have wanted Barty eliminated once Tom was back at full strength, both because Barty was too unstable to work with the other DE’s and because Barty in custody could have given evidence. But why would Tom want Quirrell out of there/injured/killed? Unless maybe, again, to keep from being able to give evidence. In which case he might have INCREASED the curse’s effects—but held it off until his stooge’s use had been fulfilled.
Except—looking at the actual fates suffered by DADA profs, that argument seems to be a stretch. Death by Harry, permanent memory damage from a broken wand, resigned in disgrace, Kissed by a Dementor, assaulted by centaurs, driven out as a murderer… note that the two who tried to KILL Harry suffered worst, the two who attacked Harry next, and Lupin and Snape suffered loss of reputation and employment. Does that really sound like Riddle controlled it at all, when those who attacked Riddle’s nemesis suffered more?