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Hello, everyone!
I would like to get your opinions on whether Severus attended a Muggle school before going to Hogwarts or was he home-schooled (by his mother)? Or perhaps he mainly taught himself?
Everyone attends Hogwarts at age 11 or 12. By this age, students know how to read and write, etc. Given that Severus is a half-blood and resided in a Muggle town, do you think he went to Muggle school? If so, he should've met Lily there and need not introduce himself in the playground (it is possible, of course, that their town has more than one school and they went to different ones). He seems to be totally into his wizarding roots that he dislikes anything Muggle. His mother could've taught him the basics (along with his quite extensive knowledge of magic, etc.). On the other hand, he seems to be very neglected so I'm not very convinced that his mother or father spent a lot of time with him (besides Tobias not liking anything much as he put it)....
I'm very interested to hear your take on this.
I would like to get your opinions on whether Severus attended a Muggle school before going to Hogwarts or was he home-schooled (by his mother)? Or perhaps he mainly taught himself?
Everyone attends Hogwarts at age 11 or 12. By this age, students know how to read and write, etc. Given that Severus is a half-blood and resided in a Muggle town, do you think he went to Muggle school? If so, he should've met Lily there and need not introduce himself in the playground (it is possible, of course, that their town has more than one school and they went to different ones). He seems to be totally into his wizarding roots that he dislikes anything Muggle. His mother could've taught him the basics (along with his quite extensive knowledge of magic, etc.). On the other hand, he seems to be very neglected so I'm not very convinced that his mother or father spent a lot of time with him (besides Tobias not liking anything much as he put it)....
I'm very interested to hear your take on this.
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I have the idea of Lily's family being socially and economically a cut or two above the Snapes.
But yes, I don't think they could have gone to the same school. If you believe JKR, Eileen would have been brought up in a tradition of homeschooling - but maybeTobias would have insisted on his son going to a proper school, where he was bullied and ostracised for being such a weirdo with funny clothes. I don't expect the teachers liked him either, as he would have been scornful of science lessons and other Muggle stuff, and was probably years ahead of the other kids by virtue of his own reading (although in rather different subjects than they taught).
Oh, and he was always crap at games, mostly because he didn't want to be there.
Of course Harry attended Muggle school did he not? So magical kids, and Muggle borns do, but I think Sev was raised as a wizard, a pureblood witch like Eileen may not feel comfortable sending her son to a Muggle school.
I also agree that the Evans girls attended what we in America call private school ( I read somewhere in England it's called public though ). I agree they were not rich but I imagine their father woulod have worked hard to send them to a better school.
He probably started to teach himself mostly, as Eileen became more depressed/alcoholic/whatever her problem was. He was certainly studying indipendendly at school, it makes sense that it always used to be that way.
If he was indeed home-schooled by Eileen, it must have been terribly lonely for him....his father was (at the very least) verbally abusive, his mother sullen/cross/problematic/depressed.... imagine, dealing with that 24/7. Not that he would have a better time at a Muggle school. We see young Petunia's - although she is not a nice person - reaction to him. It's safe to say that there were other Petunia's in the neighborhood, too.
And yes,I agree with your last statement---I also think his creativity and inventiveness in his Hogwarts years had its roots in his primary schooling, even if he was home-schooled.
However, to try and split the difference between the two choices, I'll say that maybe he went to a Muggle school for a short time--perhaps at Tobias's insistence, against Eileen's wishes. But he began doing spontaneous magic, much as Harry did--maybe in reaction to being bullied by the other kids, and his parents hastily took him out of school, and Eileen home-schooled him from then on. He wouldn't have spent long enough at school to be properly socialized, and it would have demonstrated to him that he could never fit in with the Muggles. Also, at this point, Tobias may have washed his hands of his son, realizing that Severus will never be "normal," and maybe it is at this point that the neglect of Severus begins and the fighting between his parents escalates.
He could've started infant school (ages 4-6)--- back then, the kids could hardly tease/mock him for being weird or poor or the funny clothes, they were too young to distinguish such things yet, I think. Then perhaps sometime in junior school (primary school) from ages 7-10, he was home schooled already.
I'm not sure how much homeschooling costs- I presume there are learning materials that could be availed of free of charge so it's not likely that his parents would spend more for homeschooling him. In state-run schools in the UK, there are no fees charged -- fees for for field trips and other school-related activities are voluntary and kids are allowed to attend even if they can't pay.
Yes, it's very plausible that he was pulled-out of Muggle school for doing spontaneous magic, especially if other kids teased/bullied him for a variety of reasons say, from ages 7-10. Imagine him breaking a branch at a school yard or similar everyday, like with Petunia. You also have an interesting view on the Tobias/Eileen fighting scenario and when the neglect started.
I've always thought of Severus as having attended a Muggle school, ever since HBP at least, and my main reason was because he is described as a very logical thinker, which is supposed to be a rare thing for a powerful wizard to be according to Hermione. In PS/SS we see Hermione solving that puzzle that Snape devised, which Quirrel (or Voldemort) also managed to solve so it wasn't *that* rare for a wizard to be able to handle logic after all, but to me it seemed significant that Hermione is the one putting down wizards' lack of logical sense and solving that puzzle at such a speed. Hard-working mindset aside, I think Muggle education is where she got a training in that kind of thinking processes, because Hogwarts surely never teaches anything constructive to the kids' logical thinking capacity. Yet Snape is narratively described as not only quick-witted but also extremely logical in his thinking process -- as in GoF when Harry observes that he "put two and two together as only Snape can." (Although "only Snape can" was probably just his panicked exaggeration -- I would hope that most teachers at Hogwarts have at least enough wits to see the egg and the Marauder's map and immediately know it's Harry.) Then we have HBP Ch.2, where the way Snape manipulates the conversation to dig for information while defending and reinforcing his own believability requires not only guts and quick thinking but also logical thinking abilities.
Also, if Snape had to attend a Muggle school in that kind of attire and suffer constant bullying, it would make more sense for him to end up joining the Death Eaters than if his sentiments about Muggles came solely from his resentment of his father. He did know of Lily's love for her sister, after all, and must have seen her parents too, even if it was only from a distance. But if his view of "all muggles" had already been set from his five years of schooling, it's more understandable that he completely disregards Petunia from the first moment he set eyes on the Evans sisters.
So I never thought of the possibility that Severus might have been homeschooled, but that's a very interesting idea. Certainly goes well with the level of wizarding knowledge he already had before attending Hogwarts, including possibly enough DADA talent to garner him a bad name among the Gryffindors... Although in my own view I always assumed that was just a product of his curious and studious nature, the same as in Hermione's case (only, Severus got a head start, since he could get his hands on wizarding reading material and live demonstrations -- his mom -- from a way earlier age than she).
Also, I kind of took for granted that all muggle-born children (and some half-bloods like Harry) attend their Muggle schools without much incident, even if they have random bursts of magic from time to time. Harry's magic went off even as his aunt and uncle tried to make him suppress it, but that didn't really get him into enough trouble to get him kicked out of school. And, in the case of children that don't get as much punishment for performing wandless magic as Harry did, I'm suspecting that they have greater ability to control their magic, at least when they're not too emotional. Lily could control her magic to fly off swings and make flower petals open and close: those were conscious things she did. Tom at the orphanage, too, did things with his magic that he consciously aimed to do. So I kind of thought Severus must have done fine at school as long as he kept his anger in check -- which, though, might have been a very hard thing to do, considering his temperament and probable circumstance. But, you know, unlike Harry and Hermione whose guardians were mere mortals, Severus had a witch mother. Surely if he did something too disastrous to let the matter lie, it would have been an easy work for her to hop over to the school and obliviate the people involved before it got out of hand?
--- Hogwarts surely never teaches anything constructive to the kids' logical thinking capacity.
Oh, I *fully* agree with this! It seems to be that all the kids need to do is (mainly) memorize a bunch of spells, practice wand movements, learn how to take care of plants and creatures, and they're all set. For all their pride in their magical heritage and skills, their education -- even at the NEWTs level -- is sadly lacking to me! No wonder young Severus improved his potions book and invented some spells of his own.
I also don't doubt that young Severus was made fun of/bullied in Muggle school--- at least starting from an age when kids become aware of social class and what's 'cool' and 'uncool', plus when his 'weirdness' (uncontrolled or controlled magic) became very apparent. Those, coupled with his temperament (as you pointed out), definitely would've made things unpleasant for him in Muggle school. I also wonder if he had such 'weird' bursts of magic, like Harry turning his teacher's hair blue. With Severus, it's possible that he could've done more than that, so I can imagine Eileen quite busy obliviating people.
Severus at Muggle School
Father of the Man
‘The child is father of the man.’ Wordsworth.
Chapter 1 Baby
“Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions… weak people, in other words—they stand no chance…!” Professor Snape
In which Sevvie learns about the Statute of Secrecy
http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/22
Chapter Two: Infant School
“… that Snape boy. They live down Spinner’s End, by the river.” Petunia Evans
In which Sevvie learns it would be better to hide his intelligence.
http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/24
Chapter 3: Escalations:
“Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year.” Sirius Black
In which Sevvie learns to fight fire with fire.
http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/34
Chapter 4: Witch:
“It’s real for us. Not for her.” Severus Snape
In which Severus develops a theory as to why Lily Evans is different from the other children of his experience.
\http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/3
Chapter 5: Epilogue: On the Hogwarts Express
“See ya, Snivellus!” James Potter / Sirius Black
In which Severus decides that he can count on no Wizarding children but Lily to be his ally.
http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/41
Re: Severus at Muggle School
Thanks for the links to your fanfic! I so enjoy reading on young Severus..... At a glance, I'm so interested in Chapter 2 (Infant School) but of course, I will read all chapters.
Is this a work in progress? What years will your fanfic cover?
I tend to think he tried to get along but repeatedly failed. Why else would he watch from the bushes (more than once apparently) - he knew he was unlikely to get a positive reaction. It seemed to me that he tried to plan out the best introduction he could make, but then was disappointed yet again.
One interesting idea also comes from this - altho' wizards (in general) are not very logical, logic is not just a 'learned' trait, but also somewhat related to brain activity (left/right brain dominance). I'm beginning to wonder whether Tobias was a very 'logical' thinker and Snape inherited some of his logical-thinking. Might affect Tobias' reaction to finding out his wife was a witch (or his son, a wizard)
As for not having met Lily before - I like the idea of a different school. Snape lives 'down by the river'. He could easily be in a different school neighborhood. Altho' why Petunia would then know of him I've no idea. I've wondered whether she was already associating with 'bullies' by then. Snape would probably be known to every bully in town.
Alternatively, it seems to be canon that Petunia would be the kind to listen to gossip - perhaps he was known as that 'Snape kid' specifically because the neighbors talked about him (maybe even because he did NOT go to the local school?). I tend to think however that IF he was being gossiped about then the lack of attention he received from home would have reached the 'authorities' and something would have been done. Maybe Child Services came by and Eileen 'obliviated' them?
-- Hwyla
Oh, that hiding in the bushes part and his disappointment afterwards---good insight on how he must've tried to get along with other children but failed.....makes me feel really sorry for him.
Tobias may have been a logical person --- perhaps that's one reason why he wasn't impressed with magic besides not liking anything much as young Severus put it.
There are only a few details about Lily and Severus' hometown - all we know is that it's a mill town (not particularly prosperous) in Northern England. And that Spinner's End is by the river is said/ described as the worst part of town. It may be that they attended schools in different areas of the same locality, if the town is well-populated. However, as you pointed out, Petunia (who started gossiping early) does know about the 'Snape boy' so it means that their neighborhoods are close enough to recognize each other and know some details about other kids. Or perhaps it was a small town so it's fairly easy to know about other people even if you don't know them personally.
I agree that it's possible for the Snape family to be gossiped about - 'that Snape boy' does not come across as complimentary to me. It may be due to the fighting and an obviously neglected child, and not only on being poor.
Oh God, that is a horrible possibility. And a likely one. *shudders*
And about Snape’s clothes. There is a fan fic whose interpretation I do like, and that he was dressing up as a wizard when he met Lily. I do hate to think of him dressing like that all the time. I like to think of him in jeans, converse sneakers and a t-shirt, sometimes striped. I’m just thinking about clothes that I remember the boys used when I was growing up.
As for Lily I can see her going to a private school. Not because her parents were well off, but they wanted better for their daughters. I do think the Evans family did experience some hard times. This is why I see Petunia acting the way she does. She wants to give Dudley what she never had. She wants to keep up with the Jones. I believe that Petunia is one of the few characters in canon that we can look at and maybe get some ideas about Lily. Not so much what Petunia says, but how she acts.
The comment 'that Snape boy' from Petunia may indicate that Severus could've gone to Muggle school as he was known to the other kids, known enough for Petunia to know of him and where he lived. I do think Petunia was already a gossip at that age, though, so I can't also discount the possibility that she went out her way to know everyone- so that look down on others and be a 'snob'. I have no doubt that his magic and temperament would have put off other kids, especially if there were more young Petunia's in their town.
Like you, I would love young Severus to have better clothes than what we saw in The Prince's Tale (I was thinking, aren't there clothes from charity that are decent for him to wear and his mother could do magic)? But then if it were so, the graying pants we see in SWM would hard to explain. We know his family was poor, but he need not be 'pitiful'...like you pointed out.
Like Melusin, I grew up in a northern industrial town (at the same time as Snape, in my case) and while a few of my acquaintances went to private schools, it was pretty unusual even in my prosperous neighbourhood, especially at primary age. As far as I can remember, it tended to be the children of small industrialists rather than 'healthcare professionals' who used private schools - the doctor's daughter went to my state primary, but a drill manufacturer's child might well have gone to the prep (as did our next-door neighbour's kids - he made aluminium window sections).
A Petunia would have stood out in my day (but not as much as my name did) and I knew one Lily (and a Ginevra - the only one I've ever met). All definitely middle-class, though I have a feeling that names weren't so socially stratified as they are now, and a Lily Evans could have been belonged to a family of any social standing.
However, the big divide wouldn't have been household income but *religion* - Catholic kids went to Catholic primaries. Protestants, non-believers and (outside big cities) Jewish kids went to ordinary local schools. So, the most pertinent question is - what were Eileen Prince's and Tobias Snape's religions, if any?
Several people have posited that Eileen Prince might have been Jewish - it's not an unusual Jewish name; Severus has characteristic Jewish features; and it adds an interesting dimension to the Prince/Snape marriage.
The name Snape is unusual - there seem to be two families with that name on JewishGen compared to 3,219 hits in the 1901 census, most from Lancashire and Cumberland. (There, I knew he was from the proper side of the Pennines!) The locations and names definitely don't suggest Jewishness. I'll have a look if there is any evidence of Catholicism (sounds like CSI) - there's a large Catholic minority in Lancashire.
Evans, now, boyoh - they've got to be chapel. So - different primary schools seems the most likely explanation, and different religions or social circumstances the reason.
I'll have a look if there is any evidence of Catholicism (sounds like CSI) - there's a large Catholic minority in Lancashire.
Please do, because I find it very interesting. Also I find a lot of fan fics that has the Snapes as Catholic, so I have been wondering if it was possible.
I'm astonished to hear that because I've come across many posts by British HP fans who explained that Britain is rather secular, i.e. people might belong to a church but don't really act upon it.
Was it still different in the 1960s? Or do people attend confessional schools despite the fact that they ignore their religion at all other times?
Back to the original question - I always thought Severus went to a Muggle primary, and was bullied and made unhappy there. That he and the Evans girls would have gone to different schools makes a lot of sense - thanks for explaining that this is typical for different religions. We don't get that so much in America.
I doubt the bulk of them were purchased by his parents in his childhood because of their apparent economical situation. I also doubt the bulk of them were purchased by Severus in adulthood, because I'd think he would keep most of his books at Hogwarts, perhaps bring a trunk-worth of them with him for the summer. So I think most of them were inherited, or brought over by his parents from their childhood homes.
I can't see Severus developing the view of his father as one who doesn't like much of anything if Tobias were an avid reader, and if he wasn't one he'd probably sell books to feed his family. So I think the books were mostly magical and came from Eileen's family. If Eileen was hiding her magical status from her husband for a while then she wouldn't fill the house with magical books, but once it was obvious Severus was magical she probably brought over some books from which to teach him as well as for her own use at home. Once Tobias gave up on his son ever becoming 'normal' Eileen probably increased the inflow of books. It is possible that the house became the live-in library we see in HBP only at a later time, perhaps when Eileen's parents died and she inherited them all - this could easily have been well after Severus started at Hogwarts. Perhaps the spells that allowed placing shelves across the door without the need to leave room for the door to open was cast by Severus at some point after that.
- Oryx