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Under an Alive Abusive!James, Harry Would Have Been...?

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Under an Alive Abusive!James, Harry Would Have Been...?

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Based on Abusive!James discussion, I wonder, hypothetically, how Harry would've turned out under that environment, under AU idea of his parents surviving, and him of course living with them.

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/snapedom/124611.html#cutid1

  • I think Rowling believes that people possess innate qualities. I think she intended Harry to be and has always viewed Harry as an unsullied, resilient soul, for the most part. He seemed to endure the abuse of the Dursleys without harm. He resisted Snape's sarcastic put-downs from the first. With Harry's supposed innate inner compass towards good, if James was abusive to Lily, Harry would have defended her (although, wasn't she supposed to be feisty in addition to, ah, something else? "Popular" is all I can think of). If James had abused Harry, even with friends who colluded in the abuse, the situation might have played out as it did with the Dursleys, with Harry sullenly resisting... even if Lily went along with James out of Stockholm Syndrome or for some other reason.

    If Harry identified with abusive James who felt he was still the king of his restricted world, then perhaps Harry would have become Draco, a child who felt himself entitled to special treatment as he mimicked the outward behavior of his father. (I think more of Lucius as a father than as merely an example of overbearing pride, however. I think Lucius was protective of his son, tried to impress on him the value of hard work, and tried to show him how to get along with others, if only for an advantage. If Voldemort hadn't been in the picture, Draco might have turned out fine with Lucius as a father).

    Since this is a forum for discussion about Snape, I suggest we look at Snape's experience for guidance. Snape's childhood home may have contained physical violence (the cowering woman and crying boy in his memory). It may have contained psychological violence: verbal scorn (his father not liking anything), or total neglect (his appearance). Even with this background, Snape was not a physically abusive person -- in fact, his expertise was defense. His verbal comments often seemed borne out of a defensive stance, too, at least to me. Strategic defense, then, seems to be a character trait of Severus Snape, as "fools rush in" defense seems to be a character trait of Harry Potter -- traits which would not waiver no matter what environment they are tested in.

    This assumes that character is static, however, and I don't know enough to agree with that. In real life, the outcome for kids in abusive situations might be harder to predict. Some kids in physically abusive environments identify with and fall into the patterns of one adult. Others break away from the cycle of violence entirely. Some manage a break later in life rather than sooner. There are probably statistics on outcomes for children in abusive situations, but I'm too lazy to look them up and I don't know how reliable they are as predictors of any one person's behavior.

  • I can't really add anything much to the bitter word's excellent response except this: I don't think Harry would be much different because there is a (scary) undercurrent of abuse running through the books, anyway. Severus Snape comes across as an abuse survivor; Harry is definitely an abuse survivor; Hermione is borderline abusive to Ron; James (if only in one scene) is abusive to Lily; it's possible to read Vernon as abusive to Petunia (though I don't think he is - but it's possible) - and so it goes. I guess the real question is: had Harry been raised by a wealthy, pureblood, abusive dad, would he have identified most with his father or his mother? I am no psychologist and can't guess, but, based on the boy we see in the books, it's possible he would have identified most with his father. In that case, what we would get is James 2 - an arrogant and self-righteous bully. The worst case scenario is that we would actually get someone like Barty Crouch, Sr - someone who is, in his way, as cruel as the Death Eaters, but who thinks all his actions are justified because he is fighting them. Then we get a second question: how different is this from the Harry we actually see? (and are we supposed to notice?)
  • I believe that all we see of Severus in the books, until the Prince's Tale, is through Harry's eyes. Harry never really was told much about his mother, and he had great, thick scales on his eyes that precluded him from seeing the true nature of James.

    Severus was not well adjusted as he entered Hogwarts, yet he maintained his integrity and promise to protect Harry. James, however, failed in his one chance to protect his son. I agree that if James had lived, Harry would be just like his father. Severus falsely projected the father's qualities onto the son, and I really cannot imagine Severus wanting to protect Harry if James and Lilly still lived.

    About James, and the potential of him being abusive; he was abusive as an eleven year old, encouraged in his behavior. I cannot see him ever NOT being abusive. He dies at 20 or 21 years of age, and I cannot imagine him maturing in those few short years after school.

    Severus, however stunted in emotional maturity, at the end of the day, put all his hurt and resentment aside and got the job (making sure Harry delivered that killing blow to Voldie) done.

    For all of JKR's lauding of James as the model wizard, I would stand by Severus before anyone else. She never convinced me that James had any redeeming qualities. I think Harry was well served by not having his father around to show him how to abuse, not only his social standing and the goodwill of kindly wizards, but his friends, loved ones and random poor sods that crossed his path.
    • Sorry, that comment about "Severus as a father" was directed towards raisin_gal's comment. I don't know how I ended up clicking on the wrong link. Will repost my comment in the right place!
  • I agree with others that have said that Harry ends up the way he is anyway while getting abused at the Dursley household.

    Since, as Mary says, this is a forum for discussing Snape, do you think maybe we could broaden this topic a little bit and speculate on how Harry might have turned out under the parenting of anybody in general, other than the Dursleys? James, Sirius, Remus, Snape... When James and Lily died, here were several people who might have become candidates for Harry's protection and up-bringing, if only it hadn't been for that love charm thing (and/or Dumbledore's insistence that "not being doted on as the world's savior" was such a good thing for Harry's personality formation -- yeah right, it was *perfect* for raising a nice obedient pig for slaughter). Oh and the fact that Sirius went straight to jail, and Remus was very poor and a danger to himself and others, because nobody had any wolfsbane potion made for him (wow, what a compassionate Order!) but anyway... I personally like to think that even Snape might have been a possibility. After all, Harry is Lily's flesh and blood, and the embodiment of her dying hope. Surely Snape, once he decided to live to protect Harry in her name, wanted to protect not only Harry's physical survival but also his psychological well-being? So, in time, if only Dumbledore had wanted him to, might Snape have become amenable to the idea of adopting Harry and raising him as his own son? Or not a chance? What do you think?

    And I'm curious to wonder what kind of a father *Snape* would have made. Certainly not very friendly towards children and maybe not at all a suitable candidate for parenting, but then he was a very consistent person in terms of setting rules and making his inferiors obey them, which is a helpful environment for a kid to gain a sense of stability in the world. Also he is a man that never physically harms those inferior to him in power (OotP cockroach jar scene and HBP final duel, both with Harry). Which is more than can be said for Vernon, and, it would seem reasonably to assume, James (even if he wasn't actually abusive). And I just can't escape this aching sense that, if Severus had been saddled with a one-year-old child who would eventually start showing unconditional affection towards him, perhaps he might have become a less bitter person over the eleven long years following Lily's death. Unconditional love seems to be the one thing he constantly longed for and never got, so I'm kind of sad about the fact that Dumbledore never for a second considered binding Harry's Lily-protection to her earnest suitor, despite how powerful a wizard Snape is and a way better personal protector than the Dursley family.
    • Oh, what interesting possibilities! Regarding the original question, I am worried that Lily's influence would not have been enough to counter James's attitude, and that Harry would have turned into a Gryffindor version of Draco. Also, if we're assuming that James is abusive, Lily may have become too cowed to defy him. Of course, in that case, Harry might grow to hate his father for mistreating his mother, and resolve to become the opposite of James, so it could go either way.

      As for parent substitutes, I think that Sirius--assuming that he didn't go to Azkaban--is too irresponsible to be a good father. He's more the "buddy" or "cool uncle" type. With his prejudices and recklessness, he would also probably turn out a little Gryffindor-Draco who sees all the Slytherins as Death Eaters.

      Lupin would be a loving parent, I think, and more responsible than Sirius. But there's the whole werewolf problem, as you mentioned, and I'm not sure he's strong enough to be a good role model for Harry. We've seen in the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene that he let his friends get away with doing cruel things, presumably because he was afraid of losing their friendship. And even as an adult, he shows his weaknesses: not telling Dumbledore that Sirius is an animagus; apparently letting Molly and Tonks pressure him into a romance with the latter; and temporarily abandoning his pregnant wife in DH.

      It might work out in a Snupin story, where Lupin and Snape are co-parents, since that would take care of the Wolfsbane Potion problem. Lupin could be the more nurturing parent while Snape is the disciplinarian--although that runs the risk of making Snape the bad guy. And it also assumes that Snape can get over his dislike of Harry.

      But I think, as you said, that he would have a harder time rejecting a one-year-old who is naturally going to bond with his caregiver. I think it would be harder to hate a baby than an older child who already looks like a young James. I guess Harry could already resemble James even as a baby, but to me, babies look less fully formed, and maybe Snape would find it easier to see the Lily in baby Harry. (Or maybe I just have baby-blinders. Personally, I can never see the resemblance when someone coos, "He looks just like his dad!" or "She looks just like her mother!")

      And yes, I think someone as deprived of affection as Snape is will find it hard to resist a child giving him unconditional love. And if Dumbledore played it as "you have to look after Harry for Lily's sake," I think Snape would have taken baby Harry in. And if he saw it as a way to atone for his part in Lily's death, maybe even partially redeem himself (figuratively speaking) in her eyes, then he would do his best to be a good parent to Harry. Maybe he wouldn't exactly know how to go about it, since he doesn't seem to have good examples in Tobias and Eileen, and he'd probably be awkward and overly stern at times, but I think he could grow to love Harry under those circumstances.
      • Awww now I really want to read that Snupin AU! The whole Dursley family got blasted away in the Sirius-Peter fiasco, and with nobody left that's close enough to help strengthen Lily's love charm, Dumbledore orders the two remaining Order members that were closest to her to become Harry's parents. Or something.

        You're right, those two would really complement each other's weaknesses, since Snape wouldn't let grievous misbehaviors go unquestioned and Lupin wouldn't let Snape make Harry feel unloved -- even if the man wanted to shield himself from getting attached to the boy for one reason or another, which with Remus' help he might not, to begin with :)

        There must be at least some Snupin-Harry family fics out there -- do you know of any?
    • I tend to think that Severus, as a parent, would actually be very caring and concerned to "do the thing right," because he seems to be very protective in nature, generally. He treats Draco and his other Slytherins decently, as far as we can tell, and even the children he dislikes he still doesn't harm physically--and I think a case can be made, as terri_testing has suggested elsewhere, that he did not see his emotional abuse as "really bad." That doesn't mean it wasn't; just that he might have been blind to how damaging it could be. That he was physically protective is not even a question: he's always on top of things to heal the injuries from Potions accidents, and he was (as an example) clearly distraught at the news of a student being taken into the Chamber of Secrets.

      I think, too, that if the child(ren) were his own, Severus would not only care deeply but be very protective, to a fault, and very, very biased in favor of his child(ren). Super loyalty, to the point of having blind spots to their flaws--while also holding to a conservative ideal of a strict, stern father. ;-) I don't think the man hated children, per se, or was incapable of feeling any affection for children.
      • Oh yes, Severus could have been a very protective and doting parent, couldn't he! I can just picture it, eight-year-old Harry ending up transporting himself on a roof at school, and his adoptive dad rushing in all worried and angry at the bullies -- not a word of reprimand about doing magic in front of Muggles occuring to him in the heat of the moment. You're right about his protective nature, and not actually hating kids. I'm reminded also of that scene in OotP where he sees Cedric's death in Harry's mind and looks shaken by the image.

        Though I do think Snape wouldn't be blind to his own child's faults, unlike Sirius would probably be, and James' parents (as well as Lily's) potentially were. He loves unconditionally (Lily, Dumbledore) and faithfully defends those he considers his people (Mulciber and Avery), but he seems to do it rationally and by following an objective value system -- at least when it comes to comparing people he likes to people he doesn't like, though not so much when assessing the behavior of his loved ones toward himself (he doesn't seem to see Lily as treating him unfairly). He never says "Mulciber didn't attack that girl" or "he didn't use Dark Arts" in defending his housemates to Lily. He only argues that their bullying bahaviors are nothing worse than what James and his gang call "innocent pranks."

        In his classroom he does seem to favor the Slytherins unduly (although Draco probably *was* good enough with Potions to actually legitimize his treatment) but then we have to remember that Snape was teaching potential future death eaters how to concoct things like poisons and healing salves (when he was teaching Potions) and how defend themselves in combat (DADA). Giving the Slytherin kids -- especially those with Death Eater parents -- actual constructive criticism on those subject matters were extremely risky. So I'm not sure how much he would actually favor his own child if they came to Hogwarts and under his tutelage. Or if they did something to harm somebody else in his own home, as Lily apparently did when she turned teacups into mice and psychologically terrified Petunia (I'm assuming that kind of behavior went unpunished, for the neglected sister to be so resentful). OTOH, he might be blind to a child he loves taking advantage of *him* -- and if Harry grew up to be as charming and cunning as he did in canon, he could play poor Severus like a flute, couldn't he? Ah, how I'd love to see that :)
      • I imagine Severus, as a parent, having at least two shelves full of books and scrolls on parenting and child development.:-)
        • Oh yeah, he'd totally be the type :) Thank God we're not speculating on how he would raise *Neville* because I have a feeling getting dropped off a pier wouldn't have been the only thing he suffered at poor Severus' hands! But then again I bet his methods would have actually been effective. Only, you know, maybe slightly paranoid and on the perfectionist side...
          • I would hope that Severus got his hands on some late 20th/early 21st century parenting books, and not Victorian parenting books. With a child of his own, Severus might even have gotten hiss on a copy of "How toTalk So Kids Will Listen" and improved his teaching style, too.:-)
  • I hope that Lily would leave him. That some of her youthful spunk would come back. I do think that either way, if she stayed of left, that Harry would feel torn apart. I do think he would enjoy he time with James, because he would be great pal and fun. But I also think that Harry might think about doing stuff instead of rushing in, as not to worry his mother. I also wonder where Lily would go if she left James. I often think that part of her motivation for marrying James in the first place was because she found herself alone in both the muggle world and the magical world. Just because she was popular doesn’t mean she had any close friends.

    I also think that Harry would have more compassion for others short comings, since he would see his parents faults. He would no longer have them on a pedestal, but I do believe that his belief in their greatness is what gave him hope and courage to live through the Dursleys and other things.
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