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Torino's Tuesday Question.

The World of Severus Snape

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Torino's Tuesday Question.

[info]melusin
7/1/08 05:47 pm
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In Order of the Phoenix, Snape stores three memories in the Pensieve-we know one was his 'Worst Memory', when he called Lily Mudblood. What do you think the other two were? Have we seen them in canon? And was that one really his worst memory?
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  • [info]vern
    7/1/08 02:56 pm (UTC)
    If I go with canon, the two I would pick would be, when he was spying and overheard the prophecy. Why, because he didn’t want Harry to know it was him. And the other would be when he offered Dumbledore anything if he would protect Lily. I don’t think that he would want Harry know this, or have anything over him.

    For my personal canon I personally view that Snape’s worse memory is when he overheard the prophecy or when he told Voldermort about it. I also like to think that he put more memories in the pensive than three, after all Harry did come in late. Snape has so much to hide. I also include in my personal canon that more happened between Snape and Lily, because for me this makes canon more powerful. Plus there are a few fics that do cover this. I take a lot form tjwritters fic “Severus Snape Sends His Regrets”.
    http://asylums.insanejournal.com/less_for_you/8384.html#cutid1

    I haven’t read any fan fiction that covers what the other two memories might have been, but I bet there is some general consensus in fandom about what they were. I also wonder why in canon Snape would be pulling out his memories in front of Harry. He knows that boy is curious.

    • Pulling out memories in front of Harry

      [info]terri_testing
      7/1/08 05:49 pm (UTC)
      In my fiction "To Do All in my Power", (on Occlumency if you're interested) I have Severus realizing that doing that--and then subsequently leaving the room with the Pensieve unguarded, not once but twice!--showed that, however much he insisted that Harry was just like James, he subconsciously thought of the boy as being like Lily--whose honor he would have trusted not to pry.

      (Severus's idea of Lily here ignores the fact that she did spy on her sister, of course; but we already agree that Snape's view of Lily was somewhat idealized.)

      And part of his anger, then, was feeling betrayed by the boy. In support of that, notice that he takes Harry's word for it that he won't say anything. I guarantee you that there were ways he could have ensured</> Harry not speak of it.

      I agree with your selection of memories.

      • Re: Pulling out memories in front of Harry

        [info]vern
        7/2/08 10:08 am (UTC)
        I found it. Is it finished?
        http://occlumency.sycophanthex.com/viewstory.php?sid=5766

        • Re: Pulling out memories in front of Harry

          [info]terri_testing
          7/2/08 10:28 am (UTC)
          Yes, that one is finished. I'm working on the sequel, Snape's year as Headmaster, but I keep getting distracted by one-shots. Chapters of Headmster Snape are on my livejournal; I really should pull them into chronological order, but haven't yet. I've been trying to post mostly chronologically, so you have to read my lj in reverse to get it in order. Here's Chapter One.
          http://terri-testing.livejournal.com/3903.html

          • Re: Pulling out memories in front of Harry

            [info]vern
            7/2/08 10:47 am (UTC)
            I asked because I saw an epilogue, but then it said the story is not yet completed. I’m also going to friend you on livejournal so I can remember to read your stuff. I did enjoy your story about James.

            • Re: Pulling out memories in front of Harry

              [info]terri_testing
              7/2/08 10:52 am (UTC)
              Goodness, I thought I had marked it properly. Thanks for bringing the oversight to my attention; it's done now.

  • [info]white_rat
    7/1/08 03:25 pm (UTC)
    I believe the O.W.L.S. incident was truely his worst memory. It was how he lost Lily's friendship forever.

  • [info]nehalenia
    7/1/08 10:11 pm (UTC)
    This is a great question, and one I've always wondered about. I'm also surprised that I don't see it explored more often in fan fic. I really don't have an opinion on what else Snape put in the Pensieve, but I do agree there were probably more than three. I'll be interested in seeing what everyone else says.

  • [info]the_bitter_word
    7/2/08 12:35 am (UTC)
    I probably agree with everyone else. I wrote once in a fanfic:

    "These were the memories he hid in Dumbledore's borrowed Pensieve, memories which were, sadly, easy for him to access and remove: the afternoon he was weak enough to lash out at the only friend he had in Lily Evans as the spells he created literally turned his world upside down, exposing him to multiple humiliations; his reaction to being confronted by a werewolf after being lured to the Whomping Willow by Black on the pretext of a meeting between Lily Evans and James Potter; and the night he heard and revealed the Prophecy, and doomed Lily Potter and at least two families to destruction."

    For me, they all involved Lily, and Snape's feeling of personal failure.

  • (Anonymous)
    7/2/08 05:28 am (UTC)
    From a practical POV, since Voldemort has a window into Harry's mind, the most important memory to hide is the one of Snape giving his allegiance to Dumbledore. I'm sure that was the angle Snape played up when he asked to borrow the Pensieve. But there has to be a whole bunch of memories that Harry shouldn't see for security reasons, besides the many painful ones associated with Lily and her death. I wonder if they can be linked so that instead of just one scene, you'd pull out a whole set of data strings marked "Voldemort, spying on", or "Lily, bad memories of", and Harry just happened on the earliest one. After all, that's what he got when Snape was dying: a set of Lily-memories in perfect chronological order.

    Was losing Lily's friendship a worse memory than betraying her? Could be. Human beings are selfish, and besides, this is something he'd feel directly responsible for. He didn't personally kill Lily, but he did kill their friendship. He's not detached enough to realize that it was already on the rocks or that she was always going to marry James.

    -L

  • [info]johari_m
    7/2/08 10:31 pm (UTC)
    I think that the three memories was the one by the lake ( Snape's most memory), only that it was cut and if harry had seen the whole memory, he would have seen the part that happened in the evening.
    the second is when he joined dumbldore.
    I debt about the third - knowing snape, he would have hide from Harry the memory we see him mourning Lily and bounding himself to harry ( after all, he asked D not to tell anyone why he switch sides). I thought that the third memory should have been the moment he realized that lily's son is the one the prophecy talking about.

  • [info]bohemianspirit
    7/3/08 06:30 pm (UTC)
    This is a good question, one I would not have thought to ask. But now that I've been thinking about it, it strikes me that his absolute worst memory must surely be when he learned that Lily had been killed. I wonder if the "three memories," or strands of memory, that Harry sees are actually three sets of memories, and one of the strands is the whole sequence relating to Lily, with the other two strands being other things Severus does not want Harry to see, whether for personal reasons or because they would reveal Severus' true allegiance and his deception of Voldemort, and put Severus as well as the whole opposition to Voldemort at jeopardy.

    On the subject of memories, I have a related question: How, exactly, does the extraction of memories work? Are the memories completely removed from the person's mind, so that the person will not remember them at all unless they are restored back to their mind after the Pensieve session? That seems a bit odd, because they obviously remember enough to remember to put them back in. ;-) Or does extraction simply move them off the "front stage" of the mind, leaving only a dim impression that is much harder to retrieve via Legilimency, or via one's own mental reflection and review? This, of course, is an important question for any of us writing Severus!Lives post-war fic. ;-)

    • [info]nemesister
      7/4/08 04:04 pm (UTC)
      Or does extraction simply move them off the "front stage" of the mind, leaving only a dim impression that is much harder to retrieve via Legilimency

      That must be it. We know that both Dumbledore and Snape know exactly which of their memories is in the pensieve while they are standing outside of the pensieve with Harry. Dumbeldore shows Harry little parts of his when he thinks it fits the topic of conversation (like that tragically nosy girl).

      They are however protected from Legilimency. I think that's the case because the person would just have a memory of the memory, which lacks the actual raw emotions. Reasons for this assumption: 1) The way Dumbledore uses the pensieve. He wants to look at the memories from another angle, so that he can make sense out of them. Getting rid of your personal emotion and therefore bias seems an important part of that.
      2) We know what kind of memories both Snape and Harry retract from each other. The most logical way to protect a memory is too rid it of personal emotions.
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