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Tweak says, "Owah tagoo syam..."

Badficwriter (ashtoreth) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-08-18 21:06:00

Entry tags:

char: aquaman/orin/arthur curry, char: atom/ray palmer, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: black canary/dinah lance, char: elongated man/ralph dibny, char: flash/barry allen, char: green lantern/hal jordan, char: red tornado/ulthoon/john smith, char: superman/clark kent, creator: gerry conway, publisher: dc comics, title: justice league of america

The JLA discusses secret identities versus love
This is an oldie that keeps coming to mind when I see Batman discussed. Ray Palmer, the Atom, wants to marry his girlfriend, Jean, but he's concerned about whether the revelation would cause her another breakdown (she's had two already). He asks his friends for advice.

Continuity: They've just defeated 5 old gods who melded together. Earth 1 and 2 are separate. Black Canary is from Earth 2, having migrated when her civilian husband was killed. Red Tornado has taken in a child. Hal Jordan has been dating Carol forever. Barry Allen tried to keep his identity secret, but Iris found out anyway. The Phantom Stranger is making his exit (for once, without someone saying, "OMG WHERE DID HE GO?").

2 pages from Justice League version 1, issue 156

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	volksjager 2009-08-19 01:25 am UTC (link)
	it take your daughter to work day ? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	thebigapricot 2009-08-19 01:48 am UTC (link)
	No, it's take your scary looking daughter with the face of a 40 year old to work day. (Reply to this) (Parent)

aaron_bourque
2009-08-19 01:34 am UTC (link)

Ah, yes. Silver St. Cloud. The woman Alfred wanted Bruce to marry almost immediately after her very first appearance. ICBW, but I don't think Alfred had even met her by this point.

I know this community has a hate-hate relationship with the term "Mary Sue," but I think Silver could almost qualify. If she had been the one to solve crimes instead of Batman, there'd be no question.

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psychop_rex
2009-08-19 07:09 am UTC (link)

...I don't quite understand what you're saying. I LIKED Silver, personally - she was one of the Few women Batman's dated who had a distinct personality of her own. Most of them, of course, are interchangeable bimbos - out of the others, Julie Madison had the default Golden Age girlfriend personality, and Vicki Vale was basically a red-headed knockoff of Lois Lane. Silver, on the other hand, was different. She was beautiful and feisty, of course, as just about every girlfriend in comics is, but more importantly, she was smart and competent. She was a career woman making her way in a man's world, and doing a pretty good job of it - and she was one of the only women Bruce Wayne had ever met at that point who both saw through his 'rich wastrel' persona enough to be attracted to his genuine personality, and was observant enough to realize that Bruce and Batman were one and the same, due to the fact that their chins were identical - a VERY rare occurrence in comics, both then and subsequently. I'd say there are some very good reasons why she's one of the few women in Batman's life that are still remembered lo these many years later.

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	aaron_bourque 2009-08-19 01:45 pm UTC (link)
	I have an instant, kneejerk dislike to pet characters. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	cmdr_zoom 2009-08-19 02:48 pm UTC (link)
	Same here. Not always, but often. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	saralakali 2009-08-19 04:22 pm UTC (link)
	I vote that from now on, when we are referring to a charater in pro-fic that would, in fanfic, be considered a Mary Sue, we use the term "pet character". (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	aaron_bourque 2009-08-19 05:10 pm UTC (link)
	I'll second it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

psychop_rex
2009-08-19 07:40 pm UTC (link)

How is she a 'pet' character? I didn't notice her beating up any bad guys singlehandedly or anything like that - she played a peripheral role in the actual story, and vanished at the end of Englehart's run. Most 'pet' Mary Sue-type characters that I've encountered tend to be either the writer's attempt to create THE most villainous villain of them all, one who makes the rest of the hero's rogues gallery look (theoretically) like wimps, or a new supporting cast member who rapidly becomes the absolute center of the book, eclipsing almost everyone else. Because of this, these characters are left around at the end of the writer's run, with usually unfounded hopes that they will become classic characters that everyone will love, instead of annoying distractions.
Now, while it's true that Silver is indeed still around, and did indeed become an important part of the Batman's life while she was there, she did NOT eclipse everyone else - Gordon, Robin, etc. were still around - she wasn't the center of the book, as mentioned before, and she rapidly removed herself from the scene at the end of the story, vowing never to return. That doesn't fit the qualifications for 'pet' character to me.

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aaron_bourque
2009-08-20 12:38 am UTC (link)

Englehart created her. He had Bruce fall head over heels in love with her practically at first sight. Alfred hears wedding bells almost immediately. She figures out Batman's secret identity (something police, trained reporters, and other investigators can't do, and she's an heiress. A socialite. You think Paris Hilton could figure something like that out?) Once she does, she decides she can't be with him because she doesn't want to worry about him every night. She's the instigator of practically everything when she's on the page. It irritates.

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psychop_rex
2009-08-20 01:03 am UTC (link)

OK, so maybe she IS a 'pet' character, if you put it that way. That does not, however, make her a BAD character. The reason that Mary Sues are often so irritating is that they are frequently given more of a spotlight than they actually deserve; they are bad (or mediocre, anyway) characters masquerading as good ones.
Silver, as far as I'm concerned, isn't like that. She's smart, she's engaging - I LIKE Silver St, Cloud. Maybe she is a 'pet' character, but she's a well-written pet character created by a good writer, and that makes a good deal of difference.

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aaron_bourque
2009-08-20 05:54 am UTC (link)

There's no such thing as a bad character. But when a writer creates a character and pretty much forces that character to be ultra-likable and have everything be because of their actions and to revolve around them . . . don't expect me, personally, to like it.

If someone brought Silver back, and treated her with dignity and respect, I'd be fine. But Englehart's pushing of her was annoying. I'd rather make my own judgements about a character's "likability," thank you very much.

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jaybee3
2009-08-19 02:40 pm UTC (link)

I've always wondered why Silver hasn't been mentioned since Bruce's "death", since she was one of the few civilians who knew Bruce was Batman and should know the current Batman is not Bruce (Dick and Bruce being different body types and Dick using various opportunities to get his Batman caught on camera).

Having said that I realize she was a girlfriend du jour for the writer, just as Talia was O'Neil, Sasha Bourdeux for Rucka and Jezebel Jet for Morrison. One of the reasons the Selina/Bruce idea has lasted so long I think is because her relationship with Bruce is not tied to one particular writer.

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	cmdr_zoom 2009-08-19 02:50 pm UTC (link)
	Serious shades of the competition to pair Luke off with a love interest in the post-Jedi era. (IMO, he shouldn't get one at all - that's not his story/his archetype.) Now I find myself wondering how Zahn managed to push his candidate through. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	interrobamf 2009-08-19 01:41 am UTC (link)
	No, Superman, you just haven't told Lois because you enjoy fucking with her. Not that it's undeserved, but still. (Reply to this)

	zordboy 2009-08-19 01:55 am UTC (link)
	Barry -- "There are no secrets in the bedroom." Wow. That's awfully racy dialogue for the Silver Age. Attention Leaguers -- maybe if you'd spent more time warning Ray that the love of his life is batshit insane, and less time comparing sex lives, maybe a few things in the future might happen differently. Just a crazy thought. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	fredneil.livejournal.com 2009-08-19 02:25 am UTC (link)
	Bronze age. Around 78, I'd guess. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ashtoreth 2009-08-19 02:32 am UTC (link)
	The copyright I just checked says you are correct, sir. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	aaron_bourque 2009-08-19 02:25 am UTC (link)
	If they're referencing Silver St. Cloud, then this was basically the tail-end of the silver age. Steve Englehart introduced her in the Batman story arc that pretty much made comic book readers sit up and pay attention to Batsy for the first time since the "New Look" era, which was just before or around the time Dennis O'Neil made the Joker a killer again. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jkcarrier 2009-08-19 04:16 pm UTC (link)
	Your timeline's a little off. O'Neil & Adams' Joker story came out in 1973, Englehart & Rogers did their run in 1977. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	gothamsprincess 2009-08-19 02:22 am UTC (link)
	I love how in the last panel, everyone except Dinah appears to be glaring at Ray. Way to be supportive there, guys. Glare at him when he makes his decision. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	currer 2009-08-19 02:56 am UTC (link)
	They might as well be chanting, "Pressure, pressure, pressure . . ." (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kingrockwell 2009-08-19 03:18 pm UTC (link)
	No no no, they're humming! "Doo doo doo da da doo doo" over and over again, maybe with hand claps. Any second now Ray'll start singing "Pressure! Pressin' down on you, presin' down on me, no man ask for..." (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Dramatic Unmask currer 2009-08-19 02:57 am UTC (link)
	What we need is Identity Reveal Week. (Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2009-08-19 03:00 am UTC (link)
	NO, RAY!! RUN! FOR RALPH AND SUE'S SAKE, RUN FAR AWAY FROM THE CRAZY LADY!!! (Reply to this)

bluefall
2009-08-19 08:24 am UTC (link)

So, Ray, you don't think there's anything suggestive to the fact that everyone with a family or meaningful fulfilling romance is telling you to come clean, while only the chronic maladjusted bachelors who can't make it work with women to save their lives and restrict their romantic behavior to each other during lonely nights at the Fortress of Solitude are pushing you to keep it to yourself, do you? (Also worthy of note, that Bruce and Clark have known each other's secrets for years and wouldn't dream of not having that ultimate sign of trust in each other.)

This is why I like the Bronze Age. Comics actually started to grow up. (Does that make the Modern Age/Crossover Age/Rape Age a midlife crisis or just an extended adolescence after a couple unusually impressive years of preteen maturity?)

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	jlroberson 2009-08-19 09:56 am UTC (link)
	One thing Johns got right about Palmer, in BLACKEST NIGHT, is his neediness on the issue of relationships. Cheez. And now, because of it, he might be a Black Lantern. Palmer, you're a putz. (Reply to this) (Thread)

jaybee3
2009-08-19 02:44 pm UTC (link)

Neediness is right. Which is also one of the reasons Idenitity Crisis sucks (except for all the major plotholes of course). Jean killed Sue to get Ray back? All she had was crook her finger! Even after she cheated on him, even though she was a harpy (depending on the writer) Ray always wanted her. She didn't need this complicated plot to step on Sue's brain to get him back.

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