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Tweak says, "U should've told me u loved me"

gargoylekitty (gargoylekitty) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-07-29 11:30:00

Entry tags:

char: black canary/dinah lance, char: wonder woman/diana of themyscira, creator: aaron lopresti, creator: gail simone, publisher: dc comics, title: wonder woman

Wonder Woman #34
Ready for a Wonder Woman and Black Canary team-up?

Starting off from after the preview, skipped a page there, we find Diana and Dinah getting ready to infiltrate (what is assumed to be) Roulette's underground meta-fights. In the process of getting ready we find that Dinah is truly a master of disguise.

Brilliant!
And so, one ride in the invisible jet later, they're ready to put their camo to the test.

And they're in!
Yes, there is some bit of goings on over on Themyscira of note and some dwelling on deeper things but overal it was a pretty fun issue despite(because of?) a bit of the old cage match storyline and, if the last page is any indication, the next issue should be pretty fierce.

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gailsimone
2009-07-30 02:57 pm UTC (link)

Wow. I'm out of time to discuss this this morning, but MAN there's a lot here I disagree with.

You're dead wrong about the Diana Rockwell thing. It absolutely is not negated by what I've done and I think it's a bit weird you keep insisting that it is. We haven't even seen that story yet, and it's only been hinted at so far. "completely guts that whole story"? Really? That seems a trifle melodramatic, considering that it's not even remotely true.

"However, in the end, it easily pares down to "she wears those colors to honor an American who died for an amazon," which takes precisely one sentence to explain."

I maintain that that explains precisely nothing. "Crest of the House of El" is clean, smart, and easy to understand. What you've said here merely brings up a dozen more questions. If you know they answers to those questions, wonderful. If you don't, you've just complicated the origin needlessly and explained absolutely zilch. What American? What Amazon? How did she die? I'll also add that there is nothing, not a blessed thing, added emotionally in that sentence, so it's hard to justify for dramatic reasons, as well.

"Crest of the House of El" doesn't need footnotes and a flashback. It is good juice. "she wears those colors to honor an American who died for an amazon," is a sentence, I'll give you that. But it's not MUCH of a sentence, and it's even less of an explanation.

We can disagree in the end, but certainly, that story has been problematic for a long time and even some of the writers you mention aren't nuts about it, if I remember correctly.

I think this, by the way, "f you'll notice, most writers avoid everything that came before them entirely, regardless of how gainly it might be" is just silly. Name a DC writer, particularly a WW writer, who avoids EVERYTHING that came before, entirely. Come on, Blue.

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bluefall
2009-07-30 03:10 pm UTC (link)

"House of El? What's the House of El? If he came here as a baby, how does he know what his parents' crest was? Why would his human mom put that on a costume? Did she know about Krypton? How did she find out? Memory matrix? What?"

Not as simple as you think - it's just that, unlike Wonder Woman, it's enough a part of the popular consciousness that no one has to ask. If she could get, I dunno, a movie or a series or something... ;_;

Name a DC writer, particularly a WW writer, who avoids EVERYTHING that came before, entirely.

Man, Wonder Woman writers are the worst at that! You know this. How many cities has she lived in? How many supporting cast members have fallen by the wayside? How many amazons have been given names in one run and then never seen again? Take over, change everything! is like the Wonder Woman law, and you yourself have acknowledged this when you said that your purpose in this run was to show how everything prior could be one coherent whole... something that wouldn't be necessary if everyone didn't keep changing everything.

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gailsimone
2009-07-30 05:43 pm UTC (link)

???

These characters have been around for seventy years, Bluefall. Diana has lived in a handful of cities in that time.

We're mistaking the difference between a STORY and a 'retcon.' Diana being exiled is a story. Diana living in Boston is a story. Those things do not negate where she has lived previously or where she has lived in the future any more than Batman's back being broken negated his past or future.

And I don't see the Amazon example as much of a big deal, either. An Amazon is created or favored by one writer, and then not so beloved or even mentioned by another...is that really "Avoiding EVERYTHING that came before, entirely?"

Of course it isn't. The vast, vast majority of readers wouldn't even know.

And you yourself mentioned some writers who referred specifically to this Diana Rockwell Trevor story even knowing that they most likely weren't crazy about it. I have had cameos by very obscure characters and Amazons and will continue to do so. It's ridiculous to think that everything from the past has to continue into each current run whether people like it or not, whether it's intimidating or not, and even whether it's good or not.

Nothing in Diana's past is CHANGED by Diana moving to Washington or to Boston.

It's true I think she needs some cohesive storytelling for a while, but that's more because her stories have been more varied and less rooted than Superman or Batman, not because the writers ignored all previous incarnations.

Hope that makes sense. I think it's easy for the hardcore purist to put their Professor Of Wonderology graduation caps on so tightly that they can lose sight of how that stuff looks to new readers and even those who simply find that level of integral backstory to be a little intimidating. We have to have some kindness and grace for those who DON'T know every Amazon who has ever been named in the book (and believe me, you are far from the most fanatical example of this, there are some who are still angry when a story from the 40's isn't referenced...I don't mean 'fanatical' as an insult, by the way).

The balancing act with Wonder Woman is always trying to not negate the past, but not artlessly shove in every possible detail in her history, either. Your exhaustive posts about the Cheetah are a perfect example. The Cheetah has been many things, and reading your research on her was a blast. But when she is presented to new readers for the first time, you have to strive for a clean, complete version. My goal is never to negate previous versions, but when there are eight previous personalities and they contradict one another, the best you can do is try to use your art and craft to make a compelling version that hints at the whole. The more page time you get, the more you get to do that.

And is change by itself really that awful? Greg's gods were a serious (and effective) change to the gods, but it seems to have gone over well because it was considerate and thoughtful and interesting. I think holding on to the old versions of the gods in that case was a mistake (unfortunately a mandated one). If the new thing is better than the old thing, which you obviously disagree that it is, I say let's have the new thing. But do it in a way that doesn't negate, if possible.

Which is what we're doing precisely.

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gailsimone
2009-07-30 05:47 pm UTC (link)

""House of El? What's the House of El? If he came here as a baby, how does he know what his parents' crest was? Why would his human mom put that on a costume? Did she know about Krypton? How did she find out? Memory matrix? What?"

Not as simple as you think - it's just that, unlike Wonder Woman, it's enough a part of the popular consciousness that no one has to ask. If she could get, I dunno, a movie or a series or something... ;_;"

Yikes, this is a reach.

NONE of that stuff is even slightly necessary to get the sentence explaining the house of El crest. Not a bit of it. Memory Matrix? Are we being serious, here?

But even people with some history with Diana wouldn't know what the sentence with Diana referenced. It answers no questions, just raises new ones.

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batcookies
2009-07-30 09:00 pm UTC (link)

I'm afraid I agree with Gail on the costume. The Diana Trevor thing was a nice story, but way too awkward and contrived for the explanation for Wondy's costume. It honestly wouldn't have been too bad in my mind if she wasn't Steve Trevor's mom, but that element really took things a little too far for me.

That said, I'm not sure about this "the Amazons inspired the American flag" thing...

But most of all I want to throw in that I completely agree that we've been bad in transitioning from one writer to the next for a long time. Everyone seems to want to change the setting, change the cast, etc.

Gail sticking with the DEO is probably our smoothest transition... which really rubs salt in the wound, since the DEO and Diana Prince are the worst things to ever happen to Diana, post-Crisis.

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	magus_69 2009-08-01 08:01 am UTC (link)
	Gail sticking with the DEO is probably our smoothest transition... which really rubs salt in the wound, since the DEO and Diana Prince are the worst things to ever happen to Diana, post-Crisis. The irony is certainly not lost on me. We should be careful about what we wish for. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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