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kingrockwell ([info]kingrockwell) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-25 00:48:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current location:Dallas
Current music:Neil Young ~ "Cowgirl In The Sand"
Entry tags:char: question/vic sage, creator: steve ditko, publisher: charlton, series: it's not about the answers, theme: objectivism

It's Not About The Answers: Behind The Mask Of Vic Sage, pt 2

Ditko: Vic the Enforcer (pt 2)

I may be vacationing out of state, but I still found time between hanging around with the family to crop up Mysterious Suspense #1 for you guys.

The first full title Vic carried, Mysterious Suspense was proposed as a quarterly series starring The Question, but by the time its first issue was published in October 1968, Charlton's Action Hero line had been dead for the better part of a year, though Blue Beetle would manage one more issue (#5, in the previous post) after a year of nothing. Ditko himself had already moved on to new things, having created both the Creeper and Hawk & Dove for DC in the months preceding Mysterious Suspense. The future was looking bleak for Vic Sage, but he still gave it his all for this one issue.

So, without any further ado,

(8 1/2 pages out of 26)

The issue is split into three parts, each bookended with Ditko's "man and morals against the world" narration. No credits are given, so whether Ditko did the dialogue or if D.C Glanzman was still at it I couldn't tell you. Cherish the No-Face on this page, you won't see him much this time.

While investigating a crime boss, Vic catches him fraternizing with a supposedly legitimate businessman, soda king Jason Ord. Disgusted to his core, as so many things I'm sure must make him, he vows to find proof of the connection to take Ord down, or would at least if things hadn't gotten in the way.
Meanwhile Syd, up to his old tricks, talks one of Vic's sponsors into dropping him due to the image he associates with the company. When the sponsor informs Vic of the bad news, Vic tells him he's fine with it ("your money, your decision" essentially), as long as it's really what the sponsor wanted, and not what others convinced him he might want. Vic says that kind of thing a lot in this story. Despondent, the sponsor walks off when Syd catches up with him.

Ord, greatly offended, storms out. Sam asks Vic what the hell he's doing.

Vic says a man's a fool to accept things on faith, and that he can only decide about Ord by what he knows or can prove. Whether Vic's saying that Sam shouldn't assume Ord's an alright guy because of his rep, or that he understands if Sam can't accept what he's saying without proof is unclear. The former would be typical of Vic, but the latter would harmonize with the tune he's singing throughout the issue. Either way, Sam tells him he'll decide what to do after he comes back from a trip he's on his way out the door for.

Anyway, Syd hears about how Vic treated Ord and goes to taunt his team about the likelihood that they might lose their jobs. The heavy snarks of Vic's news team send Syd and his goons home licking their wounds. When thoughts on the situation take a more serious turn, Vic pops in to say some inspiring words.

Or not. Nothing is meaningful to Vic but justice. Friendship is just a word to him.
Vic spills, says no one can be a part of the investigation unless they want to be. Al tells him they're gonna get burned either way when the heat is on. After Vic leaves, the team goes back to worrying he might be digging his own grave.

Meanwhile, Ord is playing like he's the Kingpin.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is shaping up to be Born Again, only 18 years earlier and only one issue long.
Syd plays like he's offering an olive branch and tells Vic he'd be better off apologizing the Ord. Of course, to Vic this is more like an act of war. As Syd and posse walk off, one of the goons has a familiar thought.

Okay, so it's a month before a story built on that idea is published in Blue Beetle #5, so it's not quite cliche yet at this point, but it's still egregious and so strawman-y. I will never be cool with it.

Anyway, Ord gets to work on his defamation game.



The problem with Ord's plan of course is that Vic is about as compromising as a mountain. The police can't find any connection between Ord and Kroe and warn Vic that he might fallen for a lie. It's easy to dispel doubts though when you're your own uncited source. Sam's come to a decision about the whole thing and calls everyone in his office.

Vic gives his team the straight, repeating the line-in-the-sand tune like a parrot.

Ord and Kroe plot on ways to keep Vic busy for two weeks, and Vic practices his Mule walk as part one comes to a close.




As Nora makes her I'm-not-helping-out-of-loyalty speech, Vic gets a call from the cops. Al has been caught at the scene of a murder, drunk and carrying a gun. When Vic gets there, Al explains this guy Joe Elp once told him he'd found a connection between Ord and Kroe, so Al went to see him to help Vic. They'd been drinking a bit when someone hit Al from behind, and he didn't wake up till the police got there.

This leads to more public fallout, which is really no surprise. Ord and Kroe gloat to each other, Vic gets a little stonier. Al's bail is set, Vic turns even doing a friend a solid into a self-righteous recital of his favorite song.

I get what you're saying there Vic, but sometimes "You're welcome" is enough. This could've been interesting if the smear campaign had gotten Vic so intense and self-righteous that he alienated everyone he knew out of principle, and even though he was right in the end, the way he handled it made everyone a little wary and distrusting of him, but that's a little too unheroic and deconstructionist for Ditko.
As Ditko has it, Vic still doesn't quite stand alone, and again it's an old white man backing him up.

Oh, fantastic. Now we're supposed to believe that it's directly unhealthy to one's mind to refrain from listening to Vic's broadcast! Thanks, Ditko. :/

Vic keeps up his investigation into Elp's death, knowing it will prove Al's innocence, and hoping it'll stick to Ord.


Vic leads the police to get Bo, but unfortunately for them (and for Bo) Kroe's men have already been there. Vic decides it's about time the situation were under his control.
As Sam's deadline draws near, we go to an intermission at the WWB offices.

And Ord receives a mysterious (and suspenseful!) note in the mail.

Vic, with a camera and tape recorder in tow, tails Kroe to the meeting, figuring Ord'll be too paranoid to be safely followed. When he gets there, a thug with a gun gets the drop on him and takes him to see the boss. Part two ends abruptly on Ord shouting about seeing Vic suffer.


"Why does a man fight? To survive! To achieve proper values and goals! To keep secure the values he already has! The alternative? Give up...lose by default." That's what part three's opener says as Ord takes a swing at Vic. Our hero turns the fight around handily and works his way deeper into the warehouse, where it's easier to hide, and easier to do this:

Ditko's Vic might've been a bastard, but he was certainly clever.
Vic keeps this game up for a few pages while the deadline at WWB runs out. Sam calls a meeting, but Nora has to stand in. Syd gloats in for face, so she gives him a fist, and hands Sam Vic's contract per Vic's orders. Sam doesn't want to send them packing without Vic being there, so he postpones his decision again.
Back in the warehouse, Vic has fought his way to a telephone.

Actually, Syd, Vic's snuck up on Ord and Kroe with his tape recorder.
The cops arrive and everyone panics. Vic comes out of his hiding spot to confront Ord and Kroe.

He fires toward Vic and runs off. The cops catch him and everyone goes looking for Vic, who's still busy doing his job.

Sam tells Vic his job's safe, and we cut back to WWB where Syd, in a last ditch effort to undercut Vic, breaks the Ord story in a broadcast of his own.

Syd is regaling a group with tales of his bravery throughout the investigation when he sees Vic walk by, gets nervous and clams up. I'm sure I'd seen that happen in one of the other stories, but the specifics fail me.
The story ends on one more narration box.


And there you have it. Ditko never handled The Question again, but he did create Mr. A, who was pretty much Vic, only more ruthless, more uncompromising, more Randite. Where Vic showed a flagrant disregard for the lives of criminals, Mr. A actively killed them. He had similar distinctions even, include a calling card (though A's, instead of a smoking question mark, was a simple black and white card, to emphasize his moral views), a weird mask (a stone-faced metal helmet), similar jobs and similar tastes in clothes. You can watch this video of Alan Moore recounting a song he'd written about him way back when, or read about him.

Vic himself sat on the shelves for a good thirteen years before meeting with some renewed interest. Next time we'll look at those issues, featuring Vic's team-ups with Ted Kord and his journey from Charlton to DC. Don't miss it!


(Post a new comment)


[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 01:29 am UTC (link)
Oh, I know this one. Basically, Herb Tarlek as a Randian villain. How can you beat that? That drug manufacturer with his head--hmm, maybe they should ask him why his head is getting so big. But it has to be, to bear the weight of that word balloon.

And my God what a dick he is as they leave the court. I think a "Sagedickery" tag should be made just for this. the guy KNOWS he's been set up, and SAGE knows he's been set up, so why is he making excuses to Vic in the first place? Wouldn't a "let's get that bastard" attitude make more sense, if anything? I mean, uh, it's Vic they're after, what does his cutting himself loose help anyway? Oh, but then Vic wouldn';t have a reason to explain why he doesn't care about his friend. Vic's anus must be clenched so tight, I don't think he died from lung cancer; I think he formed a black hole down there, and it sucked out his guts and spine.

Has anyone ever pointed out that other people only exist in Sage's universe as straw men to prove his strength? It's the Rand universe; other than the impossible heroes, everyone else's conversations are nothing but strings of excuses. Often made without prompting, like everyone is Raskolnikov. Ditko comics psychoanalyze themselves as you read.

Vic Sage is how Rush Limbaugh sees himself. Think about it with that bit where the beatniks berate him.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 01:30 am UTC (link)
And yes, I have it in for Ayn Rand. Former cultists are often vehement toward their former cults.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 01:42 am UTC (link)
I'm visiting my brother this week, and he got The Fountainhead for his birthday a few months back. We both had a pretty good laugh over it at the time, but a couple days ago he told me I'd probably like it. For the writing, even!
I think I raised my eyebrow so high it might be broken.

I've known way too many Randites in my life to ever give the lady a fair chance.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]darkknightjrk
2009-07-10 03:49 am UTC (link)
The very very basics of the philosophy I can get and agree with--it's when you get deeper, and see her sexual hang-ups and homophobia, amongst other things, that it starts getting a little...wierd.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 01:43 am UTC (link)
And as for the former cultists to their cults bit, there's a reason I was pretty firmly anti-Christian for a good while.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 03:40 am UTC (link)
I include the Christian right as a cult, as would most rational Christians. Thank Cthulhu I was raised an Episcopalian and at least had a concept of critical thinking. (I'm an agnostic now, and was always liberal, but still acknowledge my ethics to have originated in religion. Had the religion turned out to have really stood for those things I might not have rejected it. Rand, at the time, was actually a bridge away from that. But Carl Sagan was a more positive one.

I've been reading a bunch of material about the CR this week, and will be for a bit, because I'm putting together a project, comics or prose, related to them. And not kind. And the thing that bothers me? I thought the initial plot I came up with was far-fetched.

Now, reading about them, watching JESUS CAMP and stuff like that which is like wading through sewage...I think my ideas are tame. Seriously. We have no idea what's going on in that dark side of America.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 09:17 am UTC (link)
Oh yeah, it took me a while to remind myself that I was an atheist, a humanist even, instead of a maltheist. I've poured all those feelings into comics just so they wouldn't rot away my own core and turn me against my fellow man.

And even then, because of the part of me whose favorite books are God Bless You Mr. Rosewater and The Brothers Karamazov, the same part that gets rubbed the wrong way by Ditko's Vic, I'm always making sure I'm not writing strawmen, always trying to turn my villains into anti-villains.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Inside, This Is How Rorscharch sees His Life
[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 12:17 pm UTC (link)
That's the thing: they're all strawmen. And more--this is the way a paranoid views the world, this whole story. Look at the moments where the villain is laughing with all his cohorts.

Tellin' ya, this would be as fascinating to psychoanalyze as a Jack Chick comic. And Didactic Ditko in this period TOTALLY reminds me of the tone of Jack Chick.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 01:38 am UTC (link)
Vic does get better. :(
At the very least, if the Ditko isn't your thing (which i could totally see, i only dig it for historical purposes mostly), rest easy knowing that this is the end of it. The next part involves comics by Benjamin Smith, Greg Guler, Marv Wolfman and Len Wein (and maybe some other loose panels if I think they're relevant). It'll be a fun intermission before we get into Denny O'Neil's stuff (which even with its dramatic reinvention of the character may be recognized as more necessary now that we've seen what he had to work with).

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 03:44 am UTC (link)
Oh no, I love Ditko. It's a fascinating little miniverse he makes.

But I'm a former TCJ guy, and more than liking Ditko I like to dissect this period of his work. This is all not so much slagging as, well, defining. There's a fevered subconscious at work here and, as said, it seems to lay itself bare as you read, and as we get into Mr. A it starts to get scary.(Remember the "Angel" story?)

Though as I grow older, I start to see aspects of this further back, in Parker, only really moderated by Lee. I think if Ditko had written Spidey? It would have been sort of L'il Question.

And Dr. Strange SO makes little sense in context of most of his post-50s work.

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[info]psychop_rex
2009-06-26 04:14 am UTC (link)
Apparently, someone he knew made a joke once along the lines of 'hey, Steve, you realize your Dr. Strange artwork was a major inspiration for LSD culture?' He took it at face value, and was absolutely horrified - I mean, real gape-jawed, bug-eyed 'what have I DONE?' sort of stuff. 'Oh, NO! I fed the hippies! Mother Rand, forgive me!'

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[info]btravage.livejournal.com
2009-07-24 11:16 pm UTC (link)
I recall an anecdote that I heard where Ditko drew a scene of Spider-Man swinging over some hippies intended for him to say something like "get a job", but Lee wrote Spider-Man as encouraging them instead.

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[info]jlroberson
2009-07-25 01:57 am UTC (link)
My god, Bagge's Spider-Man really IS what Ditko's would have been.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-07-25 04:38 am UTC (link)
And this is exactly why Stan Lee is the only thing that made early Spider-Man tolerable to me, and prolly has something to do with why I liked John Romita better.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-06-26 04:10 am UTC (link)
I'm torn over this story. On the one hand, Vic's refusal to compromise his firmly-held beliefs, NO MATTER WHAT, because he KNOWS he's right, and he's not going to back down, regardless of the personal consequences - that's pretty awesome, really. On the other - damn, but Ditko Vic is a jerk. He makes some valid points, but the guy wouldn't know diplomacy if it walked up and bit him on the leg - tact, either. The man's basically a zealot, who's willing to toss everything and everyone on the fire of his own beliefs. As it turns out, his beliefs are correct, but that doesn't change the fact that he's being unreasonably abrasive to the only people in town who're on his side.
Still, that changing-back-and-forth scene is a pretty nifty bit of strategy, and Ditko knew his stuff as an artist and storyteller, even if subtlety was not his strong suit. Vic, I'm glad you've evolved since then.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 09:23 am UTC (link)
The uncompromising vs. the total asshole is the essential conflict in liking Ditko's Vic. It's interesting to see how they relate to Rorschach, as that guy had no social skills and the only friends he had barely tolerated him.
And this is why I really like Rucka's Vic, as he's a lot more diplomatic, a lot less serious, and you can track how he evolved from Ditko and through O'Neil to where he ended up.

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[info]psychop_rex
2009-06-26 04:06 pm UTC (link)
The thing with Rorschach, though, is that his evolution as a character is actually almost the opposite of Vic's - he started out as a fairly nice guy, then became a lunatic. I mean, at the beginning of his arc in Watchmen - chronologically, I mean, as seen through flashbacks - he's a bit overly driven and spooky, and keeps to himself, but he's got a pretty good partnership with Nite-Owl, and seems like someone you could actually have a fairly normal conversation with. Then he starts getting a bit spookier, then the thing with the little girl and the dogs happens, and he outright snaps, and turns into the bean-munching psycho we all know and love - eh, in a 'this is wrong, and I know it, but oh well' sort of way, that is. If he and Vic, as he was just pre-death, were ever to meet, they might actually get along pretty well, because they'd both recognize parts of themselves in the other - Vic would go 'hey, this guy is sort of like I used to be', and Rorschach would go 'hurrm - this guy's sort of like I used to be'.

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[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 07:15 pm UTC (link)
I seem to remember that O'Neil's Question--far different from this Vic with a broader sense of philosophy thanks to "old-fashioned logical positivist" Rodor(by the way, I'm not sure O'Neil understands what that term means)--read WATCHMEN and tried to imitate him. And it did not go well.

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[info]psychop_rex
2009-06-26 07:43 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, it was pretty interesting, actually - he basically said 'I like this guy's style', and went on a 'what would Rorschach do?' binge for a little while. It didn't work; as a matter of fact, it got his ass kicked, and led to these immortal lines:

Crook: "Any last words?"

Question: "Yeah. Rorschach sucks."

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[info]darkknightjrk
2009-07-10 03:44 am UTC (link)
"who's willing to toss everything and everyone on the fire of his own beliefs."

Did he? Maybe I read it wrong, but didn't he tell his "friends" to not try to help him unless they actually believed him?

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[info]kingrockwell
2009-07-10 04:10 am UTC (link)
Tell is too light a term, demanded is closer. In that example, he didn't give a toss about his friendship to them or theirs to him, only that they followed his rules.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]psychop_rex
2009-07-10 04:14 am UTC (link)
Well, yes, technically, but he does so in an unnecessarily harsh fashion. Look at how he treats the poor guy who's gone to bat for him and been arrested for it, who's saying he'll quit his job so he doesn't drag Vic down through association with him. Vic COULD have said 'Man, you don't have to do that, I'll be fine - just stick with me and we'll see this through', but instead he practically rips the guy a new hole for being afraid to face the music - and this is his friend! If I were that guy, I'd say 'up yours, you ungrateful prick - I'm trying to be considerate here, and you're calling me a coward because I don't want to see you taken down? #@%^ this noise, I'm quittin' anyway.'

(Reply to this) (Parent)

BEATNIKS!
[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 12:13 pm UTC (link)
Wantin' peace and stuff...

Also: did anyone notice he fools that one crook with a FINGER IN HIS BACK?

Have a friend poke a finger in your back, telling you it's a gun. Then have a good laugh.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: BEATNIKS!
[info]kingrockwell
2009-06-26 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Ah, but have mystery gas that might melt your face off flowing out of it and you have a completely different story!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

Re: BEATNIKS!
[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 12:28 pm UTC (link)
Now I have this picture in my mind of an insane Vic, become a dictator, forcing all hippies to wear the Mask. Forever.

"WhaMMMWHNNNG"

"You have given up your self, so you won't know the difference. Now stand up straight, hippie!"

(Reply to this) (Parent)

"Now They Believe The Question Is Over Here!"
[info]jlroberson
2009-06-26 12:33 pm UTC (link)
Not if you talk like that RIGHT IN FRONT of them.

But it's good something makes Vic smile. I know he has to be careful about that, though; it could kill his beloved pet bug he has in his ass.

"And that bug was his ONLY FRIEND."

(Reply to this)


[info]jlbarnett
2009-06-26 07:06 pm UTC (link)
He doesn't want his "friends" to help out of loyalty right? So he basically makes them defend why they want to help. But if they owe him nothing ... then one of them should say "I don't owe you an explanation, I want to help so you're going to take my help and shut the fuck up about it."

(Reply to this)




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