InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "I love potatoes"

richardak (richardak) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-06-18 01:00:00

Entry tags:

char: bane, char: batman/bruce wayne, char: huntress/helena bertinelli, char: robin/nightwing/dick grayson, creator: roger robinson, creator: scott beatty, in-joke: context is for the weak, publisher: dc comics

Huntress out-stealths Batman yet again.

When I first posted scans showing that Huntress could out-stealth Batman,

unknownscribler commented that Huntress probably wouldn't "be consistantly able to out stealth the bat, but I think it's good that she can beat him at his own game every so often." I recently discovered, thanks in no small part to

kingrockwell , yet another example of Huntress getting the drop on Batman:

I think she took that well. But in all seriousness, after the third time one character has managed to pretty thoroughly out-stealth the other, I think it might be reasonable to conclude that it's not a fluke. I also love this because it showcases Huntress' violent temper.

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chengar
2009-06-18 07:26 pm UTC (link)

You're right about it taking quite a while for Babs to get along with Helena; her brief fling with Nightwing was definately a major sore with Babs for a long time.

Some new Bruce and Helena interaction could be interesting given the fact that they should be getting along better thanks to Babs and Dinah, but I've got a bad feeling that if it's not Simone or another BoP author writing them they'll just ignore the character development and snap back to the pre-BoP status quo.

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bluefall
2009-06-18 08:01 pm UTC (link)

her brief fling with Nightwing was definately a major sore with Babs for a long time.

Well, that, and the whole "willing to kill people" thing (Babs knows about Helena's relationship to Cassamento, there's no way she hasn't connected the dots about his death), and the "I'll just be wearing your old costume and name without your permission" during No Man's Land (which was really more Bruce's betrayal than Helena's, because Helena had no way of knowing, but that didn't make it hurt less), and the "let me just raid your tower because we know you're the nerve center of the Blue Boys" business (even if she did turn around and fight Pettit in the end, it was really not Helena's finest or most heroic moment).

I sometimes wonder if the Helena-Babs relationship doesn't say more than it first appears about the Tim-Babs relationship, because Babs tolerated a lot more from Helena, pre-Hel-as-Bird, than she has from pretty much anyone else who isn't Bruce - particularly, things that put her father in danger - and yet not only basically left her alone, but even helped her on occasion, generally at Tim's instigation. His good word must mean a hell of a lot to her.

I've got a bad feeling that if it's not Simone or another BoP author writing them [...]

This is a concern I have not just about Bruce-Helena but about Helena in general. She's too grey a character for a lot of writers and too complex a character for a lot of others - easy to get wrong, and therefore endangered when out of reliable hands.

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chengar
2009-06-18 11:27 pm UTC (link)

Huntess' methods have certainly made it hard for just about any member of the Bat-clan to get along with her, though Helena's stint as a Bat is kind of odd since in her initial appearance she was trying to pass herself off as BatMAN. I'm pretty Babs is well aware of every single person Helena has killed, so presumably she viewed them as justifiable enough to not go after Huntress over the matter. While they had unpleasnt history, to me it seemed like it was Huntress' relationship with Dick that added an element of personal rancor; there were plenty of reasons for Oracle and Huntress to have issues, but Dick was the only thing that really made Babs dislike Helena. Your thoughts on how Babs-Helena relates to Babs-Tim are also quite interesting.

Like a lot of morally grey characters (Jason Todd springs to mind as a recent example) Huntress can have difficulty when dealing with a writer who prefers to keep their morality black and white. Her temper is also a major character flaw that can end up getting exaggerated by writers who don't quite get all of the complex ins and outs of her character.

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bluefall
2009-06-19 01:19 am UTC (link)

but Dick was the only thing that really made Babs dislike Helena.

Eh. That's Dinah's line, but I don't buy it. Babs was hating on Helena from the beginning, long before either of them ever dreamed of hooking up with Dick. She flips out on Dinah for even thinking of teaming with Hel in the second Birds mini, Helena complains in the Annual flashback about how judgmental Oracle is, and her reaction to Dick actually sleeping with Helena when it finally does happen long after any of that is incredibly mellow and accepting. Dick calls her, naked, from Helena's kitchen no less, and Babs is nothing resembling jealous - she's maternal if anything, gently telling Dick he's being a dork and that it's not serious or workable between them. Contrast this to how livid she gets during NML when Hel wears the Bat, or raids her tower, or puts Jim in danger, or to how she behaves about Kory, who she does actually perceive as a threat.

Helena was barely a blip on Dick's radar, and all three of them know it. Babs feeling genuinely threatened by or jealous of that wouldn't make sense, and doesn't wash with the way she's been portrayed either then or after.

Jason Todd springs to mind as a recent example

The female Bats and the Even Robins have a lot of thematic overlap. Having to fight for a place in the Clan, being more willing to be brutal or even lethal, suffering ignominious fates, etc etc. Jason and Hel are especially close mirrors, both equal distance from the white hat/black hat line on opposite sides, him starting in the Clan and getting kicked out for his violence and her starting out of the Clan and being brought in for her mellowing out, both equally likely to be written as utterly deranged by writers who can't comprehend that they'd act the way they do if they weren't. And hey, Helena had rape retconned out of her backstory and Jason's just probably had rape retconned into his! The parallels are astounding. -_-

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chengar
2009-06-19 06:31 am UTC (link)

Bah, why must you use your facts and logic to prove me wrong! I suppose that since I've recently re-read Simone's run of BoP I was buying into Dinah's line on the matter. Of course, Dinah was making that arguement right after Babs and Dick broke up, so it would make sense that anything Nightwing-related would be a sore point for Babs at that time.

On the paralells between Helena and Jason, it's also worth mentioning that Helena came into the Bat-books pretty soon after Death in the Family. I suppose it says something about the nature of the Bat-Clan that the outsider who wants to get into the clan and tends to be a touch more willing to use lethal force is such a common theme.

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