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mysteryfan ([info]mysteryfan) wrote in [info]scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-23 09:14:00

Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:char: batman/bruce wayne, char: black canary/dinah lance, creator: frank miller, creator: jim lee, creator: scott williams, publisher: dc comics, title: all-star batman and robin

"Tough love from some crazy Irish chick."


[info]psychop_rex requested ASBAR, Black Canary. Specifically, the scene with the car...










(Read comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 09:57 am UTC (link)
You know, Miller has a lot* of people teasing Batman about him/his car/whatever being "queer". It's interesting that his version of Batman, which in general is supposed to be very masculine and hetero (in that "rawr, I'm tough, I fight people, eat rats, women obsess over me and I have lots of stubble on my chin!" kind of way), but also seems to involve vague accusations of being gay.

*And by "a lot", I guess I probably only mean from what I can remember, there's Canary here, and then Dick earlier. =P

Is it Miller trying to be funny/self-mocking? Is it that in order for Batman to live up to that masculine ideal he's got to, I don't know, assert that he's not queer? Or is Miller just doing a poor job of taking a dig at the silliness of Batman?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 10:35 am UTC (link)
Batman also calls thugs things like 'sweetheart' and 'princess'. Is it that in order for Batman to live up to that masculine ideal he's got to, I don't know, assert that he's not queer? I don't know. There's that particular element, and then there's a lot of mocking of Batmythos in general.

Is it Miller trying to be funny/self-mocking? Or is Miller just doing a poor job of taking a dig at the silliness of Batman?

It's fascinating to me, but I don't know. Other possibilities include: is he mocking the people who mocked his earlier work with Batman; mocking the people who mocked earlier issues of ASBAR; himself--for writing a superhero comic; himself for being in too far with the Batstuff; us for reading it? Batfans for buying into the mythos? Does he have a love/hate relationship with Batman? Is he having fun with it or kind of pissed off?

I can't tell what's going on. I kind of think a certain amount is directed at detractors of the earlier issues of ASBAR. The rest, I don't know. He kind of went into it, though, starting with issue #1 making Bruce -- well, it smacked of making Bruce a pedophile. Was that impression purposeful or not? I kind of think it had to be. Does he hate the character of Batman? I kind of think maybe so. But then the whole tone of the way he portrays the character changes by the last two issues. Of course, part of the deal is how many years and months between issues.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 12:27 pm UTC (link)
All good questions. And it's a fair point that these issues were released fairly spread apart, so that it could be a reaction to the reaction he got before.

starting with issue #1 making Bruce -- well, it smacked of making Bruce a pedophile. Was that impression purposeful or not? I kind of think it had to be.

I'm not so sure. It's been a little while since I read it, but I got the feeling that it was more to do away with Bruce's motivation as being one of sympathy and understanding toward Dick. Instead he's looking for a soldier, someone with existing talent that can be molded and directed into being his ally/partner/sidekick/bat-heir.

Of course, he could very well also be mocking the bat-mythos at the same time, given that people have been speculating about Bruce and Dick since the 50s.

(IIRC, I don't think Miller eliminates the sympathy/understanding angle entirely, but it's certainly diminished.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Ignoring the Vicki Vale bizarre bizarreness, because... the whole first issue is her in her underwear, unbelievably thrilled to have a date with Bruce Wayne, who... takes her to the circus...


Maybe I'm overreacting, but that's a bit creepy for me.


(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, there is definitely a certain amount of creepiness there. I think I just partly don't want to see it, because as much as we all joke about it, the idea of Bruce being a pedophile and taking advantage of Dick just makes my skin crawl.


I HAVE A DATE WITH BRUCE WAYNE! BRUCE WAYNE! I HAVE A DATE WITH BRUCE WAYNE! HOT DAMN! I'M HAVING A DATE WITH BRUCE WAYNE! *cough*

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-23 01:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sailorlibra, 2009-05-23 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-23 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sailorlibra, 2009-05-24 04:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-25 10:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-05-23 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-23 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-05-23 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bluefall, 2009-05-23 11:26 pm UTC

[info]runespoor7
2009-05-23 02:09 pm UTC (link)
If he'd dropped the emphasis in Bruce's dialogue, and the repetition (Bruce repeats himself), it'd be some shades less creepy. (If there were no repetitions.) The emphasis on "talent", especially, doesn't help that impression at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]icon_uk
2009-05-23 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Yup, definitely some creepy "grooming" vibes from that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]darkknightjrk
2009-06-04 01:30 am UTC (link)
"I'm not so sure. It's been a little while since I read it, but I got the feeling that it was more to do away with Bruce's motivation as being one of sympathy and understanding toward Dick. Instead he's looking for a soldier, someone with existing talent that can be molded and directed into being his ally/partner/sidekick/bat-heir."

There's some truth to this, but he didn't completely ignore that. Issue 9 was basically about Batman realizing that he's basically taught Dick how to fight and nothing else, and that he needed to be more sympathetic to Robin, else he ends up raising a killer.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-06-04 01:25 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I think that is the one I was thinking of.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jlroberson
2009-05-23 07:28 pm UTC (link)
I've heard Miller call himself self-mocking in this. I would offer that implies self-awareness. I would also offer that it provides an excellent excuse to never change your shtick: just go to the Abbott & Costello phase, and do the same old shit but add jokes.

I would like to see someone follow up with Miller and ask him just what flaws and cliches in his own work he himself sees that he's mocking.

WORLD'S FUNNEST, that would be self-mocking. That one I'll grant. But he didn't write that.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 08:12 pm UTC (link)
My pet theory at the moment is that he's sick of Batman. Like Batman for him is Misery Whatever-her-name-is, for Stephen King's Paul Sheldon.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-05-23 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Well, then don't write him. It's not that hard. I avoid writing Batman every day.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sistermagpie
2009-05-23 10:36 am UTC (link)
Hyper-masculine seems to often go hand in hand with gay panic. The worst thing a real man can be is gay, and everyone in this universe seems to therefore use it as an insult.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 12:12 pm UTC (link)
Yes, that's exactly it. Thank you for putting it so well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 10:37 am UTC (link)
Oh, and if he is gay, he's kind of gay for Superman. That's who he's going on about up there. He's obsessed with him.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Well, naturally. (Speaking of which, I just caught up with the past couple months of Superman/Batman. It's pretty much all about their undying love for each other. It's cute.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

They're so DIFFERENT. Yet so THE SAME.
[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Uh huh. Yay, Superman/Batman!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jlroberson
2009-05-23 05:45 pm UTC (link)
If you've read Miller long enough, you've seen enough signs that he may be gay and doing everything in the world to hide it.

I would post examples but I haven't a spare two weeks.

I'd just offer that the hints Bats might be gay extend to Miller's Joker. You could easily read the whole of this and Dark Knight as one man trying to kill his self-awareness.

And I'd also offer that Miller has no goddamn idea how women act or think. That they all exist only in relation to Batman, even WW. That Miller thinks an assertive woman is also necessarily a ballbuster.(of course, he was recently divorced) That kind of thing.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I'd appreciate if we could get back to framing this discussion around Miller's writing, rather than his personal life.


I do think that Miller has difficulty writing female characters, because most of his female characters existences tend to have something to do with sex: they're prostitutes, they want to have sex with Batman, they want to go on a date with Bruce Wayne and talk about in their underwear, etc. And, as you say, because they only exist in relation to Batman.

Mind you I haven't read enough Miller to be able to tell, but would you say the same is true of all his supporting characters in ASBAR? IIRC, with characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Commissioner Gordon, their lives all seem to revolve around Batman as well in ASBAR.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-05-23 07:20 pm UTC (link)
All the male characters are feckless and only Batman has the answer, and all the women are hot for Batman. Pretty classic Mel Gibson framing.

I'd also offer possibly the most disgusting thing in the whole book: Gordon can only become a man by cutting loose his horrid(well, he made her that way, but does a real man take consequences? Does he hell) wife that even his daughter wants him to leave to die.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 08:03 pm UTC (link)
Well, you got me on Mrs. Gordon. But she's a holdover from his original work twenty years ago. It's disturbing and gratuitous--the way she is built to be a villain. But he was supposedly trying to go for continuity, and he did already build her that way twenty years ago, right? It may be a case of a creator being too stuck with their own creation. Or misogyny. Or writer laziness. It is badly done, because of the level of gratuity. I THINK maybe it would be just as bad/the same if the character was a male character. It's definitely too over the top re: she has no redeeming features.

All the male characters are feckless and only Batman has the answer, and all the women are hot for Batman.

But if we're seeing it through the Goddamn Batman's point of view, and I think we are, that's exactly the way he'd see all of the other characters.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 08:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 08:32 pm UTC

[info]parsimonia
2009-05-23 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Gordon can only become a man by cutting loose his horrid(well, he made her that way, but does a real man take consequences? Does he hell) wife that even his daughter wants him to leave to die.

Wait, in which comic does that happen?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2009-05-23 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 11:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 11:56 pm UTC

[info]darkknightjrk
2009-06-04 01:40 am UTC (link)
"I do think that Miller has difficulty writing female characters, because most of his female characters existences tend to have something to do with sex: they're prostitutes, they want to have sex with Batman, they want to go on a date with Bruce Wayne and talk about in their underwear, etc."

Eh...it's more balanced out in his original work, I find. His Martha Washington is a very competant character, as well as Casey McKenna in Ronin, as well as Miho and Nancy in Sin City.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mysteryfan
2009-05-23 07:04 pm UTC (link)
To be fair about women only existing only in relation to Batman, that looks to me like every character, male and female, in this story. Dick, Alfred, Gordon, Supes, Hal don't fare any differently. We're seeing them all through Batman's eyes anyway, more than anybody else's.

I don't know if we can tell what Miller thinks about how women act or think from this title.
an assertive woman is also necessarily a ballbuster.
Again, I don't think we can tell from this title. Everybody's extreme here. Bizarre, even. Everything's amped up to 11 plus plus. WW, if that's who you're specifically referring to (I'm thinking you don't think BC falls into that category) she does have the one issue where she's absolutely bizarre and manhating crazy, then suddenly she and Superman are making out. So she doesn't end up assertive or nonassertive, imo. Just wouldn't know her if she didn't have the tiara on, ooc WW.

Black Canary is bizarre here too, but I would never say she's unassertive. She's bizarre, and often unheroic, but so is Batman.

Vicki Vale is frighteningly excited about her date and only dressed for extreme fanservice, but she takes care of business with the crooked cops and holds her own. Again, strange, fanservicey, is an idiot, but stands up to the cops and does her job.

Selina is treated more like an equal here (so far) than I've seen her treated in any of his previous work.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]jlroberson
2009-05-23 07:38 pm UTC (link)
>>Black Canary is bizarre here too, but I would never say she's unassertive.

And this is balanced out by her fucking the Goddamn Batman.

>>and only dressed for extreme fanservice

You don't know how "only" until you read some of the script of the opening pages of this thing. Look it up. He's actually telling Lee to get the fanboys drooling.

>>Selina is treated more like an equal here (so far) than I've seen her treated in any of his previous work.

We see two scenes. One where she lets the Joker stroll right into her room while saying she's aware of what he does to girls, and another where Lee gets to re-use a layout from HUSH and where she drags her bleeding, beaten body to Batman because only he can help her.

I'm looking for anything implying "equality" here. Not finding.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-23 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-23 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jlroberson, 2009-05-23 08:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mysteryfan, 2009-05-24 02:27 pm UTC

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