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Tweak says, "Aww, shucks.."

queenursula (queenursula) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-05-04 15:09:00

Entry tags:

char: black alice/lori zechlin, char: blaze, char: satanus, creator: keith giffen, creator: tom derenick, publisher: dc comics, title: reign in hell

Reign in Hell #8: Black Alice

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	majingojira 2009-05-04 07:32 pm UTC (link)
	Just for the record, can I get your criteria for what a Proper Mecahnism is. FYI: Magic as an explination is the exact opposite of one. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

jarodrussell
2009-05-04 07:52 pm UTC (link)

Magic as an explination is the exact opposite of one.

Have they ever even said that her powers are magic-based? She seems to use other people's magical energies, but doesn't particularly have her own. Is she magical or some kind of parasite that feeds on magic but is something different? Is she some kind of anti-magic weapon in the form of a human girl? Is she some kind of meta-human whose power allows her to extend herself into higher planes and redirect the flow of magic from those planes down to ours, and thus take on the characteristics of those whose source flows she's interrupting? Only now that wouldn't make sense, because she apparently copies powers instead of stealing, which would indicate she has her own energy reserves to draw from. Magic as an explanation is like answering "a color" when someone asks how you're painting your room.

I've never seen any explanation of what she is, at least an explanation along the lines of: Zatanna's half Homo-magi on her mother's side, have human magician on her father's side; Dr. Fate's powers are derived from the gods of order and chaos; Scarlett Witch is a mutant who's reality warping powers are fueled by magical energies.

As far as I know, all we know about Black Alice is: she can steal (or now copy) magical powers from others, her mother is dead, and she may be related to Misfit unless that plot point was dropped. I mean, I suppose that's good enough for the majority of people, but it confounds me something fierce.

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majingojira
2009-05-04 08:39 pm UTC (link)

Have they ever even said that her powers are magic-based?

Yes, in later BOP issues, IIRC.

She seems to use other people's magical energies, but doesn't particularly have her own. Is she magical or some kind of parasite that feeds on magic but is something different?

A practitioner with a special leeching gift. In BoP it was established that it was not copying but full on short term THEFT of the powers.

Low level Magic practitioners sometimes have (at least, in Early Blue Beetle vIII it was esablished) a unique talent of one form or another. Sometimes, it's all they can do, othertimes, it's only a hint of greater things. Her's is just...pretty damn extreme.

Only now that wouldn't make sense, because she apparently copies powers instead of stealing, which would indicate she has her own energy reserves to draw from.

Ret-cons screwing things up?! NO WAY!

Magic as an explanation is like answering "a color" when someone asks how you're painting your room.

It's far worse than that since it doesn't actually have a true Mechanism to describe it. Most magic is sympathetic in nature, but there's no real indication of what is acomplishing the sympathy.

I've never seen any explanation of what she is, at least an explanation along the lines of: Zatanna's half Homo-magi on her mother's side, have human magician on her father's side;

There is so MUCH wrong with even calling them Homo magi it's not even funny. The creation of fertile hybrids points to subspecies instead of species (Homo sapiens magi); the lack of differential organs and appearance to even begin the classification as a different species. Whatever makes them able to access magic appears to be magic itself, which is circular and therefore worthless as an explination.

Unless there's a surgically-removable organ that allows their magical access, they're up shit creek with that explination.

Sorry, pet peeve.

As far as I know, all we know about Black Alice is: she can steal (or now copy) magical powers from others, her mother is dead, and she may be related to Misfit unless that plot point was dropped. I mean, I suppose that's good enough for the majority of people, but it confounds me something fierce.

I got a bit more than that from her appearances pre "Reign in Hell" (which I avoided because event comics need to seriously start cribbin' notes from Super Robot Wars in order to NOT SUCK). I'd have to review what I have seen and most of that was archived on the old SD, so I'm SOL.

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jarodrussell
2009-05-04 09:05 pm UTC (link)

Yes, in later BOP issues, IIRC.

Then that would explain how I missed it. I stopped paying much attention to BOP between, like, #69 and #110. At most I'd skim pages to see what Oracle was up to, but not much else. So, okay, if they called it magic, then I'll accept that.

It's far worse than that since it doesn't actually have a true Mechanism to describe it.

But in the good stories anyway, there are usually enough rules that you can get a feel for the interface, if not the underlying system. With Black Alice it was just, "Oh, hai! Can beez Spektur naow!" which, in my opinion, seriously amped down the coolness factor of other mages, who actually have to work, scheme, and practice. Which is another reason I liken her to a Mary Sue, because while John Constantine might be able to trick devils, you know it's because he's smart and has a plan; Alice just gets upset and can be Captain Marvel.

*shrugs* Not that I ready any of DC's magical books on a regular basis, so I'm not their target demographic, it just struck me...it just bugged me that All-Powerful Alice the Specter is O.K. but Extremis Iron Man is boring and over-powered.

Whatever makes them able to access magic appears to be magic itself, which is circular and therefore worthless as an explination.

I like to think it's a genetic-level thing, where their nucleic acids are twisted into a shape that's a geometric key to accessing magic. Kind of like the Speed Force Equation was a shape that let speeders...do...something to access the Speedforce, the homo-magi's (sorry) genes connect them to all reality. That's my theory anyway, as unfounded and full of bad science as it is. :)

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majingojira
2009-05-05 07:58 am UTC (link)

It seems that you have a strawman image of her being "lolspectre" at every instance of her power activation. She's channeled, IIRC, a wide range from Captain Marvel to the Demon Etrigan to Misfit.

The fact that this fault hasn't been played with more is almost as annoying as her being put on a bus.

Also, Genetics is usueless unless it creates parts of the body to perform the function in question. Genes on their own just tell the body to BUILD PARTS.

So, again, Surgically Removable Magic Organ. If its an etheric organ (IE: Linker Core from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha) then it wouldb't be genetic.

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Couple of edits later...

jarodrussell
2009-05-05 09:44 am UTC (link)

(This is an edit, because I realized I misspoke in a couple of places in a way that might make this post look like I was contradicting an earlier post.)

If I were arguing that I dislike Black Alice based on her being a Republican Senator, that would be a straw man, her turning into Spectre, afaik, actually happened. My "lolspectre" argument is just the most visible example of her seemingly limitless, unexplained powers. (At least unexplained up to that point, since I believe Shadow Pact happened before her second BOP showing.) I'll start using a "lolshazam" argument if it'll help any, because to me it's the same problem.

Now that you've told me her powers were explained as "magic" in BOP, I really can't complain that she has "limitless, unexplained powers." That said, I still really don't like the character. Also, I don't think this completely negates my original, now slightly modified, statement: "So, she went from being a [contrived plot device who can do anything because she's magic] who could become all powerful by stealing powers to [a slightly constrained plot device with a 'get out of needing reason' magic card] version of Rogue who can kiss boys."

Genes also function as blueprints on HOW to build body parts, so who's to say there's not a certain way to build a brain, an eye, hair, a gall bladder, or a vertebra in a way that will channel magic for someone. This isn't to say it's a good explanation for why there are no magic glands, just an attempt at one.

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Re: Couple of edits later...
(Anonymous)
2009-05-05 01:13 pm UTC (link)

If I may interject, said 'stealing' of the spectre's powers was a limited act in itself as mentioned in the very issues she referenced. If she was all-powerful, she wouldn't be having to focus on keeping the powers as the spectre tried to take them back. It also only remained in her hands for a few minutes at best before being torn back from her. So she's not quite as powerful as she's been described by you, as others can take back the powers with the proper focus and concentration.

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	Re: Couple of edits later... jarodrussell 2009-05-05 01:34 pm UTC (link)
	So she's not quite as powerful as she's been described by you, as others can take back the powers with the proper focus and concentration. Interesting. So, pre-the-mess-above, it's not that she steals powers so much as she globs onto another person's power source and takes priority, sort of...instead of a pirate broadcast, a pirate reception. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	Re: Couple of edits later... (Anonymous) 2009-05-05 01:38 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah. ^_^ No problem amigo, just figured it was something to bring up. needs to get an account over here sometime soon... was megaspork at the old scans daily. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Couple of edits later...

majingojira
2009-05-05 02:51 pm UTC (link)

(This is an edit, because I realized I misspoke in a couple of places in a way that might make this post look like I was contradicting an earlier post.)

Always a good reason to edit.

If I were arguing that I dislike Black Alice based on her being a Republican Senator, that would be a straw man, her turning into Spectre, afaik, actually happened

It is a strawman because it happened only once and you are exagerating its use to be the normative of her powers when bruiser-type mystical heroes such as Shazam, Wonder Woman and The Demon Etrigan are far more normative.

Either way, it is still something that can be surgically removed and at least constitutes an organ (Unless they have runes carved into their bones or something else like that...hey, Rune Bones would be kinda cool). It bugs me that they've had Homo Magii around for so long and no one's thought to..I dunno...--

Wait. I better stop myself before I screw up my own attempts at writting.

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