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Tweak says, "There is no cult!"

drsevarius (drsevarius) wrote in scans_daily,
@ 2009-04-15 23:35:00

Entry tags:

char: black canary/dinah lance, char: green arrow/oliver queen, title: green arrow/black canary

Green Arrow/Black Canary #19
Remember last time we saw Dinah and Ollie, he tased her?

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	seriousfic 2009-04-16 01:08 pm UTC (link)
	And as long as we're on the subject, Barbara is way hotter than Ollie. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-16 05:13 pm UTC (link)

Probably, though, much as it pains me to say it, not as good in bed. At least not from the Dinah perspective - you know Dinah's a giver, which is great for Ollie, but getting Babs to cuddle or even just lay back and let you have your filthy way with her would be like pulling teeth. People with serious control and intimacy issues: good lovers for Dick Grayson, less good for Dinah Lance.

(On the other hand, that does mean the sex can only get better with time, which has its own virtues as a romantic concept.)

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	seriousfic 2009-04-16 05:51 pm UTC (link)
	On the other hand, how many of Dinah's erogenous zones has Barbara documented? Besides all of them, I mean. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-04-16 06:45 pm UTC (link)
	Fair point. Also: no facial hair. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	seriousfic 2009-04-16 07:10 pm UTC (link)
	Instead of a bald spot, red hair so luxurious you just can't keep it in a cowl. Even Kate Kane could only use a wig to compete with it. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-16 09:21 pm UTC (link)

The hair's kind of a minus, actually - it's crazy attractive, certainly, but logistically a serious pain in the ass if you both have a lot of length and volume. Still better than the facial hair, though.

And the glasses are a definite plus. Dinah never went for the nerds in high school, but you learn to appreciate the world a little differently when you get older.

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	seriousfic 2009-04-16 09:26 pm UTC (link)
	Plus, if you ever want a threesome, you know Barbara has pick of the litter. With Ollie, all you'd get is Hal, so it's basically Lemon Party: The Early Years. And Barbara's surrogate kid can beat up Ollie's surrogate kid. Trufax. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	bluefall 2009-04-16 10:34 pm UTC (link)
	Cass, certainly. I think I still have to give Roy the edge on Misfit, though, at this point in her training. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	seriousfic 2009-04-16 11:28 pm UTC (link)
	I wouldn't give Misfit the "surrogate kid" thing yet. She's more like... Dennis the Menace to Barbara's Mr. Wilson. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jarodrussell 2009-04-17 11:16 am UTC (link)
	Motto. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	seriousfic 2009-04-16 07:12 pm UTC (link)
	Besides which, glasses, which make any girl cuter. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	sistermagpie 2009-04-16 07:44 pm UTC (link)
	I have to ask--what's the difference you're drawing here between Dick and Dinah (in the good lover for DG/less good for DL)? I have a feeling I agree, but I'm intrigued... (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-16 09:16 pm UTC (link)

Total unjustifiable fanon, mostly, but still a fair extrapolation from the source text. ^^

Babs: The dommiest domme who ever dommed. Mostly as a result of discomfort with her body - nothing to the extent of the obscene Vanhook stuff we're seeing in the mini, but I think it is true that she doesn't really believe she's attractive or sexually appealing anymore. Certainly she absolutely desperately needs to be in complete control, both physically (handles on the chair) and emotionally (the Grayson yo-yo and the Dinah firing) of everything in her life. I can't see that stopping at the bedroom door. I'm thinking comfortable sex for Babs involves her partner being cuffed to a headboard, and on a good night she doesn't even get touched. (It helps that she definitely seems like the kind of person who could get off mentally, or get off by getting her partner off.)

This works very well with Dick: the subbiest sub who ever subbed. The guy wants to please in a way that puts puppies to shame - whatever you want, he wants for you. His whole upbringing was about absolute faith and trust in this total authority figure (or two such, before his parents died), and while he's very active and in motion and an instinctive and brilliant leader in his daily life, it's not because he has to be for the sake of his psyche, it's because that's the way he *is* - obedience and forced stillness would be a break from the norm, but in an exciting way rather than a stressful one. This is backed up by his consistent pursuit of aggressive, dominant partners. Plus, you know, Robin's in bondage, must be Tuesday. I'm thinking fun sex for Dick involves being cuffed to a headboard.

Then we have Dinah, who's not at all subby, who's an extremely huggy, physically affectionate person who very much does not seem like someone who would feel comfortable or fair always being touched and never touching, and who had a whole storyarc about how difficult is for her not to flip the fuck out when cuffed to a headboard.

I ship Babs/Dinah like a crazy person, but they would definitely have stuff to work out if they got together.

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	seriousfic 2009-04-16 09:28 pm UTC (link)
	Dick's in the handcuffs, Dinah has the key, Barbara watches (for starters). Mission accomplished. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-16 11:16 pm UTC (link)

Contrary to popular fandom belief, I'm afraid threesomes are not the solution to everything.

Actually seriously though, that would be a pretty weird dynamic. Dick's way too young for Dinah, and they know each other mostly through slightly awkward connections (on-again-off-again's top agent who she cries about me to, coworker's son & surrogate son's best friend, woman who works with my dad, guy the most important woman in my life is hung up on), and they would only be doing it for Barbara's sake. Kind of an interesting challenge, actually, to genuinely capture that - two women doing it for a watching/directing man, who clearly have no authentic interest in each other and all the tension is directed at the voyeur, is a relatively common device, but I've never seen a man and woman paired who clearly have no authentic interest in each other and all the tension is directed at a female voyeur. There's always a suggestion of genuine desire in any het contact in porn, in my experience. (Even as a writer.)

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Yours is the superior porn-icon

seriousfic
2009-04-16 11:52 pm UTC (link)

Contrary to popular fandom belief, I'm afraid threesomes are not the solution to everything.

WHAT? But the mathematics are so pure! Having sex fixes everything from rape trauma to maiming, so it stands to reason that having sex with twice as many people would cure what ails you twice as fast.

but I've never seen a man and woman paired who clearly have no authentic interest in each other and all the tension is directed at a female voyeur.

Well, Dick's too much of a wolf not to be at least a little interested in Dinah and Dinah definitely has noticed Dick (she did jokingly ask Barbara to set her up with him in the Dixon years), so there could be a level of Dick/Helena-type attraction there, with Dick's repressed(?) perchant for casual sex being justified by the Barbara connection. And if Dinah went for Ra's almost sight unseen, then going for Dick would be perfectly natural.

And I actually do recall writing a PWP that was Dick/Dinah with Barbara listening in (with their consent) and generally being the driving force behind the action, to the point where Dick's... interest... flagged when she was called away. I remember it because

twtd gave it a rec that was basically "I know it's not femslash, but OMGHOT" :). Don't know if it counts because they're flirting and stealing kisses before Barbara's in the picture, but it seemed to work for my readers.

Now Dick/Kory/Babs, that would be weird.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

i only wish the source material were as hot as it is fun.

bluefall
2009-04-17 12:23 am UTC (link)

That was you? I think I read that one. I had kind of the same reaction to it that misterandersen had to my Diana/Lois/Clark - it seems like... not exactly cheating if no one's dating at the time, but still a betrayal for the two of them to start anything without at least Barbara's express permission, if not her instigation. You can kind of hear the bow-chicka-wow music when the third party shows up and just joins in instead of being all hurt. (Which reminds me, I really need to write that slightly-more-emotionally-plausible sequel I was planning. >.>)

Now Dick/Kory/Babs, that would be weird.

petronelle pulled it off once, mostly. It reads a little forced to me but, given the premise, astoundingly plausible really, and successfully navigates Babs being pissed off and resentful of Kory without either Kory or Babs looking like a douche (I think Dick kind of does, but at least he's well-meaning), which is a hell of a trick.

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Re: i only wish the source material were as hot as it is fun.

seriousfic
2009-04-17 12:46 am UTC (link)

That was you?

There are a lot of people going around writing Birds of Prey hetfic with femslashy overtones? ;)

I think I read that one. I had kind of the same reaction to it that misterandersen had to my Diana/Lois/Clark - it seems like... not exactly cheating if no one's dating at the time, but still a betrayal for the two of them to start anything without at least Barbara's express permission, if not her instigation.

If it helps, it really didn't go beyond the kind of all-purpose flirting Dick did with Tarantula until Barbara was both clearly listening in and "approving". And I think once you get into morgies, the bow-chicka-wow-wow music is playing nonstop. I mean, there could be a more emotionally plausible threesome, but the fic would be longer (unnecessarily so, IMHO) and once you chuck the spontaneity and kinkiness out the window, I don't think it would be as hot. It'd be like taking a dub-con fic and adding a long scene at the beginning where the characters discuss the sex they're going to have and expressly consent to it. Sure, it's more plausible than someone abruptly waking up to handcuffs and a blowjob, but where's the fun in that?

Of course, I have an idea for a fic where Dick realizes he should get back together with Barbara because she's perfect for him at the same time that Dinah breaks up with Ollie because she realizes that she's treating Ollie like she should be treating Barbara (namely, without pants). And then Dinah is all "hey, no big, me and Ollie and Hal used to be an item, let's move in together." Shenanigans ensue. But as you can tell, different focuses from "hot pornzor" to "how would this AU work?"

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bluefall
2009-04-17 10:06 am UTC (link)

I wouldn't know, I seldom read het, overtones or not. Though yeah, Babs/Dinah's pretty scarce. Which is insane. Everyone knows they're stupid in love, yes? It's one of the most widely "yeah, I totally see that"-acknowledged non-canon ships I've seen in femslash. So why are there not more stories? (Not that I'm one to talk, with my ten or twelve WIPs that will never, ever get P'd to completion, but still.)

I mean, there could be a more emotionally plausible threesome, but the fic would be longer (unnecessarily so, IMHO) and once you chuck the spontaneity and kinkiness out the window, I don't think it would be as hot.

Heh. You're such a guy.

Shenanigans ensue.

Depending how far you take that from canon, you could make a pretty interesting commentary on Dinah with that kind of AU. Jealousy has been a major problem for Dinah in the past - sharing does not come naturally to her. Was it different with Hal because Hal was a guy? If so, how well does she tolerate sharing Babs with Dick in the long-term? If Hal is different because she subconsciously devalues queer relationships in favor of het ones ("Ollie slept with someone else, but it wasn't real sex, it doesn't count"), she's really not going to take her girlfriend having a guyfriend well. If Hal is different because she's thinking in terms of variety, though ("Ollie slept with someone else, but it was a guy, and a boyfriend provides different things than a girlfriend so I don't need to feel threatened"), then Dinah will be fine and Babs is going to be the real sticking point.

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seriousfic
2009-04-17 10:56 am UTC (link)

I wouldn't know, I seldom read het, overtones or not. Though yeah, Babs/Dinah's pretty scarce. Which is insane. Everyone knows they're stupid in love, yes? It's one of the most widely "yeah, I totally see that"-acknowledged non-canon ships I've seen in femslash. So why are there not more stories? (Not that I'm one to talk, with my ten or twelve WIPs that will never, ever get P'd to completion, but still.)

It's a sad combination of fandom being what it is (not much of an audience) and there not being any new canon for them to gay up. But if it's any consolation, we can at least get some schadenfreude from the dearth of Dinah/Ollie.

Of course, in a perfect world we'd send fembuck in for a doctor's visit with nothing but old issues of BOP to read and watch as a new fandom was born, but I suppose it'd be cruel to get her into Babs/Dinah after how Rachel/Ivy panned out.

Heh. You're such a guy.

Seems to be the prevailing opinion. That would be an interesting poll, tho. Because if you're looking for 1:1 characterization, a lot of Bruce Wayne smut just wouldn't happen. Ditto for Harry/Draco and such. Maybe there's an Uncanny Valley of in-characterization and hotness. I've noticed there's a certain amount of forgivable OOC in writing comedic fic and especially crackfic, maybe there's something similar for porn.

If Hal is different because she's thinking in terms of variety, though ("Ollie slept with someone else, but it was a guy, and a boyfriend provides different things than a girlfriend so I don't need to feel threatened"), then Dinah will be fine and Babs is going to be the real sticking point.

I think in a fic like that, the one with the most sexual hang-ups is going to be seen as the bad guy, so it'd be most interesting for everyone to have their own little issues. For instance, Dick is (if not strictly monogamous) Mr. Relationship, and Dinah would be weirded out by her fuckbuddy sending her flowers and wanting to get in on Romantic Movie Night with Babs. And Barbara has control issues and Teh Paranoid, so she'd probably try to ritualize things to keep from anyone getting jealous or hurt and thus suck all the fun out of it. With Dick and Dinah, she'd be putting round pegs into square holes (when she should be putting round pegs into round holes, hur hur).

And I could see Dinah as distinguishing between Hal as the friend with benefits and herself as The Girlfriend, the one who Ollie comes home to, the mom to Roy. So when she finds out that Dick is Robin of Batgirl And Robin, she might freak out wondering if she's the friend with benefits in this little equation.

So, lotta ground to cover before everything's beer and pizza.

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bluefall
2009-04-17 11:57 am UTC (link)

I used to be able to rely on merfilly, but she finished her Big Damn Table and hasn't written the pairing since. She's all with the Slade/Dinah now. ;_;

Seems to be the prevailing opinion.

"Prevailing"? There are people who can't tell? But yeah, there's certainly just as much "this would never happen but it's hot so run with it" in smut fic as there is in the stereotypical porno (or, perhaps, less implausible sex, but between the implausible sex and the implausible emoporn and spilling and sharing of emotions, I'm sure it adds up to the same). I bet there's a whole study you could do there - certainly there's at least a

metafandom conversation - about which people read and write stories with familiar characters (what if it's funny, what if they're In Space, what if they had sex), and which read and write familiar characters in new stories (they seem like they'd do this, so let's see it), and what kind of overlap there is. And, like, whether there's a correlation between people who do a lot of PWP and people who rarepair or AU or crackfic a lot, and how that correlates with OTPers.

So, lotta ground to cover before everything's beer and pizza.

Even the beer and pizza wouldn't be beer and pizza. The girls would want pineapple-anchovy or some shit that would totally baffle and disgust Dick, and Babs is totally a teetotaler and wouldn't have any booze in the house and would quietly and mostly not deliberately make Dick and Dinah feel really bad about bringing any around. It's just a disaster waiting to happen, really. ^^

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seriousfic, 2009-04-17 12:10 pm UTC

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bluefall, 2009-04-17 12:48 pm UTC

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bluefall, 2009-04-17 03:13 pm UTC

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scottyquick, 2009-04-18 01:28 am UTC

	sistermagpie 2009-04-16 10:32 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you! That was pretty much what I was thinking but I wanted to make sure about the difference between giver!Dick and giver!Dinah for Babs. Okay, really I totally wanted you to talk about how Barbara and relationships and sex because there's just so many issues there. I do think she and Dinah would make a cool couple. (pets Dick, poor puppy) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

bluefall
2009-04-16 10:56 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I think in short form it would be "Dick wants to please, Dinah wants to care for" - which is why, in the end, I think Dinah is healthier for Babs, because Babs is not, herself, completely right about what she needs or deserves (or how she should be allowed to treat her lover), and to Dinah, love means challenging that, while to Dick, love means going along with it. (I could write so many essays on Babs and her weirdnesses and her relationships. People think I'm overinvested in Diana, man, they don't even know.)

Poor Dick indeed. I ship Donna/Kory (and can't stand Dick/Kory anyway, though as a result of fandom politics rather than the characters, which is admittedly unfair but still no less true), and I'm not into Batcest, so I really do have the poor guy sort of adrift out there. I should look into this Dick/Roy thing or something, maybe. ^.^

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sistermagpie
2009-04-16 11:08 pm UTC (link)

I would totally read anything you wrote about Babs and her weirdness and relationships because the woman is just...it was a total accident but they created a really explosive character there on the inside. I think what fascinates me about Dick/Babs is that on the surface is seems sweet (Batgirl and Robin! He had a crush on her forever!) but really from every angle it gets into scary issues on both their parts--with hers being aggressive and him just being that much more determined to please and take it. Even their little flirty exchanges have a total undercurrent for me now.

Yeah, definitely Dinah.

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jarodrussell
2009-04-17 11:25 am UTC (link)

...who had a whole storyarc about how difficult is for her not to flip the fuck out when cuffed to a headboard.

Meh. Dinah was no where near flipping out in Between Darkness and Dawn. Barbara was afraid she'd be flipping out...which continues to bug me, since Barbara knows Dinah's been tied up half a dozen times since "The Longbow Hunters" story...but I never got the impression Dinah was bothered by the cuffs...no more so than, say, Batman would have been anyway.

That said, if Babs and Dinah were doing bondage, I think it'd be more a shibari type thing, with Barbara fulfilling Dinah's physical requirements during the binding, by caressing and kissing her, and the binding being the intellectual puzzle that would get Barbara off. Plus, let's not forget, Barbara likes to watch...and I imagine Dinah could put on an escape artist act to put Zatanna and Scott Free to shame. :)

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