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ahaw9913 (ahaw9913) wrote in qaf_coffeeclub,
@ 2009-10-06 13:50:00

Current mood:	contemplative
Entry tags:	flist help

Episode 211 Confusion
I need some help and input! And I will preface this by saying that I love all QAF characters and am not really interested in hate of any kind. That said...

What is going on with Brian offering his tickets to Miami to Lindsay? And Lindsay refusing to take them? What am I supposed to take away from this? What is it telling me about Brian's development, or his and Lindsay's relationship, or whatever it is that I am not getting?

Cause so far, all I take away is hurt and the sense of another cosmic slap on Brian's nose with a rolled-up newspaper, for trying to do something outside his "Brian Kinney is an asshole" box, similar to the feelings of Justin being bashed as punishment for the prom. I mean, Brian offered to give up his trip why, if not because he wanted to do something nice for his friends? Why doesn't Lindsay accept this more personal gift from Brian as easily as she and Mel accepted the rings and the wedding? Why does it sound like an attempt to keep Brian from being more than he has been? On the other hand, it seems Lindsay is giving him the out he really wants. I don't think he actually wanted to go to the wedding, but why make the gesture in the first place? No one expected it. It would have had shock value, but Brian usually has a plan behind his grand gestures, and I can't figure this one out. Is Brian hurt by Lindsay's refusal, and it's wording, or grateful as she believes? After all these years, I'm certain that she doesn't really believe that Brian wouldn't sacrifice for the people he loves, does she?

My head is starting to hurt! Season 2, in general, is confusing to me, but this is one of those things that never clears up for me as I rewatch it.

I'm sure that this has been discussed before, probably ad nauseum, but I would appreciate your perspective.

Thanks!

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notreallyme10
2009-10-07 04:58 pm UTC (link)

On the other hand, it seems Lindsay is giving him the out he really wants.

I think this is exactly it. She knows what Brian really wants and she is touched he would offer it up but she doesn't need it to be happy and she would rather see him happy. Brian has made it clear with all of his help how he feels about Lindsay and the wedding and that is enough for both of them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-07 05:06 pm UTC (link)
	Hey! Why do you think he did offer them? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

fun_demented
2009-10-07 05:21 pm UTC (link)

Brian offered them because he's pathetic. KIDDING. Because he's ridiculously generous when his friends need him to be. He didn't know she didn't need him to be. He didn't offer them as a gesture of love and friendship, nor so that he might attend the wedding. He offered them, because Lindsay and Melanie couldn't afford a honeymoon, and he thought Lindsay needed that to be happy with the entire experience.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-10-07 09:20 pm UTC (link)

He offered them, because Lindsay and Melanie couldn't afford a honeymoon, and he thought Lindsay needed that to be happy with the entire experience.

This makes sense to me. And may be the root of my confusion. I couldn't figure out why he would offer them the tickets, and not be hurt by their refusal, thus, kicking me off into the what am I supposed to get from this. But, I can see him offering them a honeymoon, cause that would be part of the "hetero wedding" thing, and if she didn't need it to make the day perfect, he wouldn't be hurt by their refusal. Yes, this I understand.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-10-07 05:24 pm UTC (link)

Lindsay's feelings for Brian and her relationship to him are complex. A lot of it can be left to interpretation.

Here's mine: Lindsay's earthy. Her fire burns vicariously through Brian. His unapologetic, in your face, no regrets policy is something that Lindsay admires with starry eyes--which is at once a credit to her (for accepting her friend for who he is without judgment or conditions) and it is a flaw (she sees him as a symbol of freedom, that's not fair, she expects the world from him, symbols are perfect, people are not). She needs him to "Brian Kinney". It fulfills something for her --she allows him to fill the many "rooms" she doesn't occupy herself, as she described to Sam Auerbach, her "house has many rooms, [she occupies] but a few". That's why she needed her child to have his genes. She wanted to bottle some of that Kinney magic.

She did a similar thing in S5 with Justin. She wanted him to fulfill the career dream she couldn't because she didn't have Justin's talent. She seemed to need Justin to go to New York. And moreover, it killed two birds with one stone. Brian remained "Peter Pan". He did not get married and settle down.

She loves Justin and Brian each as individuals and also as a couple, and always acts on her perception of what's best for each or both of them. Sometimes she's right, sometimes she's wrong, depending on who you are how you look at it.

She certainly has influence over both of them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

frantic_quest
2009-10-07 06:04 pm UTC (link)

She certainly has influence over both of them.

She really does, and by the end of the series, I have a really hard time finding anything I like about her. The only explanation I have for her actions by 513 is that she was truly a victim of character bashing by the writers. I love flawed characters (see my ongoing obsession with BK) but I don't know Christy, you are much more charitable to Lindsay then I can be at this time.

As far as 211, I still liked her then, so I can buy that she is giving Brian the way out, and also that she is thinking of Mel by refusing, and knows that Mel would be upset accepting a honeymoon from Brian.

Although, Mel doesn't seem to have trouble cashing Brian's checks.

Of course, it would be nice if Lindsay spread the word and told the family that Brian offered the tickets instead of letting everyone just think that getting his dick sucked was Brian's main goal in life. She didn't did she? It's been a while since I watched 211.

I do like your take on Lindsay though, Christy, but late S5 is really tough for me to overcome.

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ahaw9913
2009-10-07 09:29 pm UTC (link)

I think most of the gang needs a good whap in the head on more than one occasion (IMO, Justin and Emmett, probably the least), but I think , overall, Lindsay is mostly torn between wanting what is best for Brian, as she sees it, and wanting to keep the friend of her youth. That is part of what has made this all so confusing. I can't really assign her any negative intentions toward Brian.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

maxymama
2009-10-07 06:13 pm UTC (link)

I took this scene at face-value. In a moment of over-whelming love for Lindsay, Brian offered the trip to Miami so she could have a honeymoon. There wasn't anything hidden behind the offer; Brian didn't secretly want to be at the wedding. But Lindsay didn't need the honeymoon so she said no. She wasn't rejecting Brian, she just wanted him to go and have a good time like he wanted.

As for the points you brought up (I say from memory, not having watched this scene in awhile), I didn't see it as Lindsay trying to keep Brian as Peter Pan. I didn't see this offer as a huge growth point though, because I think Brian could have easily made this same offer to LINDSAY years earlier.

I don't think Brian is hurt by the refusal, but ponders the situation some- that she is encouraging him to go fuck lots of beautiful men, while she commits to one.

I think Lindsay believes, especially by this point, that Brian would sacrifice for his friends. It's just that she doesn't need the trip, so she says no. She is touched by the offer though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

notreallyme10
2009-10-07 06:29 pm UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	frantic_quest 2009-10-07 07:39 pm UTC (link)
	I like this too! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	xie_xie_xie 2009-10-07 07:03 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, that's how I see it as well. Always did, from the first viewing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-07 09:34 pm UTC (link)
	She is touched by the offer though. I do agree that she is touched, and he seems truly grateful, which without the point that fun_demented made above, would still confuse me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	_alicesprings 2009-10-08 02:03 am UTC (link)
	THIS! (Reply to this) (Parent)

xie_xie_xie
2009-10-07 07:02 pm UTC (link)

I haven't read anyone else's comments yet.

This is one of the things bunny and I argue about more than any other QAF subject.

The first time I saw this, I never thought twice about it. Brian didn't want to be at the wedding, he was just offering to do these things to please Lindsay, she saw it and went with it, she new Brian cared, he got to go to where he really wanted to be, it was all good.

Then I arrived in fandom and discovered that virtually everyone else alive interprets it as you did. It really stunned me.

I just don't get it. I don't think Brian wanted to be at the wedding, I think he was just being impulsive and making these big gestures, like he often did in canon.

The fact that Lindsay saw through it and let him off the hook always seemed really beautiful to me, and he went jaunting off down the stairs and seemed really happy. He seemed happy with Justin not going with him, too...

So, my two cents. For what it's worth. Etc. ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	outlander 2009-10-07 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, what you said. It always leaves me with a happy feeling that they are friends who not only care about each other, but truly KNOW each other. Not a big moment, but a nice one. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-07 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	I am hoping that with having a little better understanding, this will be my reaction the next time I watch it, too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	etextraordinary 2009-10-07 08:29 pm UTC (link)
	I love your icon Xie. Is it sharable? And whose is it? Thanks! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	xie_xie_xie 2009-10-07 08:34 pm UTC (link)
	Definitely shareable, and it's by LJ's jameserin! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	etextraordinary 2009-10-07 08:37 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you much my dear! So good to see you around! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

vl_redreign
2009-10-07 09:26 pm UTC (link)

I was hoping you'd see this and respond. You and I discussed this too, because I wasn't sure what I was seeing. At first, it was like you said, she wanted him to be happy, and she knew that him being at the wedding wasn't it. Then, yeah, fandom, and I got all confuzzled.

The thing with Justin, that I never wavered on. I do wish Justin had been able to go with Brian, but Justin has that thing where family comes first. And I loved what he said about giving Debbie and Emmett Kleenex. And his trying to knock everyone out of the way to catch the bouquet.

Since we didn't see who did, someone needs to write that.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-07 09:50 pm UTC (link)
	The one thing I was never confused about was Justin's part in it. Like you say, he does have that family thing, and he really would have regretted missing the wedding. And Brian really was fine with him not going, I never doubted that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

ahaw9913
2009-10-07 10:09 pm UTC (link)

Actually, I am with you on most of your points, I just kept looking for a reason for Brian to offer the tickets, not finding that, it kept falling back to why wouldn't he be hurt if they were refused.

I think fun_demented steered me in a direction I understand, and this is all much clearer to me between hers, yours, notreallyme10's, and maxymama's comments. Thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	xie_xie_xie 2009-10-07 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	Well, to be fair, a sense that it was wrong and mean of Lindsay to turn him down is the dominant meta on this scene in fandom. I think it's flat out wrong, personally, and springs from the "woobie Brian" branch of fandom, but that branch? Huge. (Reply to this) (Parent)

etextraordinary
2009-10-07 08:28 pm UTC (link)

I am going to agree with

xie_xie_xie

maxymama and

notreallyme10. I've always seen this scene as Brian offering to give up something he really wanted for his friends to be happy. I think Lindsay could see through Brian's facade and didn't need the extravagant gift to be happy-she was content with marrying Mel. Lindsay gave Brian his chance to be happy and avoid something he really didn't want to do.

This discussion has just made me thing of something interesting-what would have happened if Linds and Mel took Brian's gift and they went to Miami rather than him? *goes to ponder*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-07 10:11 pm UTC (link)
	I agree, it makes more sense to me when I take out the search for hidden levels and subtext! :D You should definitely write this What If! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

etextraordinary
2009-10-08 10:33 am UTC (link)

Ooh, thats a great idea, maybe I could use it for one of the challenges I am currently participating in.

BTW-do you have time between now and next Wed to Beta a drabble series for me-I have had visions of Emmett putting together B and J's bed for weeks and I have finally decided to give in to my muse and write it so they will help me with the two challenges. Merci!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-08 12:07 pm UTC (link)
	Sure! Send it on, whenever. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	happier_bunny 2009-10-07 10:42 pm UTC (link)
	Can you please unlock this post. Thanks! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-10-08 01:25 am UTC (link)
	Done, sorry. (Reply to this) (Parent)

lilacwine10
2009-10-22 11:38 am UTC (link)

This is an oldish entry, but I'm new to insanejournal and am QAF-addicted so I'll respond anyway:

It was a generous offer by Brian, but Lindsey knew he'd prefer to be elsewhere, so she declined. I don't think he was offended at all, and I think he was simply being generous in offering it to her as per the other wedding arrangements.

Leaving that aside, I actually think Brian should have gone to Lindsey's wedding. She really was the only person he loved aside from Justin, Michael and Gus, and it was her special day, even if it meant giving up hedonistic hijinks at the White Party. He should have made an effort for her. He is very generous with his money, but not so generous if any other personal sacrifice is required.

Afterall he could have just attended the ceremony and then headed straight for the Babylon backrooms once it all got too much for him. It wouldn't have been a huge sacrifice. Maybe all of 30 minutes work.

On the other hand, some QAF fans point out that both Lindsey and Michael both encouraged Brian to remain emotionally stunted. Maybe the way Lindsey refused the Miami tickets is an example of this. IDK. Often Lindsey and Michael call Brian out on his bs. Then they do a 180 as in this scene, or express the "you will always be young and beautiful" crapolla. I find the two positions hard to reconcile. It's as though CowLip are trying to integrate their own story lines (let's see Brian grow up with help from Justin, Michael, Lindsey and Debbie) and the Russell T. Davies view of the world (the "I believe in *******, not love" stance). It's pretty hard to do I think. They should have had more faith in themselves.

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ahaw9913
2009-10-25 10:21 am UTC (link)

Hi,

Leaving that aside, I actually think Brian should have gone to Lindsey's wedding. She really was the only person he loved aside from Justin, Michael and Gus, and it was her special day, even if it meant giving up hedonistic hijinks at the White Party. He should have made an effort for her.

You bring up a good point. When it came time for Michael to marry, he not only attended, but stood up for Michael. But, there was quite a bit of time between the two events, and quite a bit of growth on Brian's part emotionally and with respect to his views on relationships.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lilacwine10 2009-10-25 01:44 pm UTC (link)
	I agree with your point about Michael's wedding. (Reply to this) (Parent)