InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "billy martin is no gangsta"

ahaw9913 (ahaw9913) wrote in qaf_coffeeclub,
@ 2009-06-30 23:08:00

Current mood:

contemplative

Calling All Authors!
I am a new writer. I have written a few drabbles and one ficlet. Mostly well received, but I have gotten a few comments that let me know that the reader wasn't quite in sync with the story, and it threw me into a quandary.

How do you respond to constructive criticism in feedback? (This is not about corrections, which I have been given.)

The concrit I have received was given in a VERY positive manner, and I was not AT ALL upset or offended by it, but I simply did not know how to respond to it without coming off defensive. I rely very heavily on physical cues when I talk and often worry about being taken the wrong way in computer conversations.

My first instinct was to try to explain where I was coming from in the story and to let the reader know the mindset of the character, as I saw it, and why I felt they would have done what they did, like I would do with a beta, but I was afraid of sounding defensive (which I wasn’t). I also thought, well if my story doesn't say it for itself, and I have to explain it, I really haven't done as good a job as I should have. And too, I certainly didn't want to come across as bitchy with someone who was not only, kind enough to read my writing, but also thoughtful enough to give me good solid feedback that I can learn from. And then too I thought, does this little bit of fluff writing warrant more debate than there are words in the actually story? Not at the risk of upsetting someone.

So what did I do? I erred on the side of not opening a can of worms that I wasn't sure I knew how to handle, and simply thanked them for commenting and giving feedback. When what I really wanted to do was pick their brains about where it went wrong for them. So in the end, I ended up not learning as much as I could have and will probably make the same mistake again.

I have since tried giving my perspective to a reader about a story, but I still don't know if I am doing the right thing. Don't get me wrong! I'm sure I would be crushed if someone told me they hated one of my stories, and no one wants to get flamed, but I also don't want to miss out on opportunities to learn and improve.

So what do I do now? Did I do the right thing? What would you have done? What have you done? If you wanted to hash out something with a reader, whose opinion you really respected, is the comments to your fic the place to do it? Is there a better forum? Should I have asked them to PM me? Should I PM them? As a reader what do you expect when you give feedback? Ack, it's so hard to know!

Okay, SUN! But, seriously, help a newbie writer out!

(Post a new comment)

noteverything
2009-07-02 12:52 am UTC (link)

As you know, I only write drabbles and an occasional porny thing, so I can only answer from that perspective.

My first instinct is to defend anything I write if someone questions me and frankly, I probably get a little upset in the beginning. But...I *always* always thank anyone who comments, because I do appreciate any comments I get. They mean so much more than I think they will, *every* single time, even after hundreds of drabbles.

I think you're on the right track to offer your perspective to anyone that gives you criticism...I think that's what I'd do. Then, depending on their reaction to that, you could offer to talk more in email or PM, but I'd bet most people would be satisfied with your response.

Personally, I *WANT* more criticism. I've "complained" about this before to a few people. Sometimes I feel like people either tell me everything I write is really good because that's what they always do *or* they just don't say anything at all if they don't care for it. I would *LOVE* to know specifically what works and what doesn't, even if it's just a drabble. But...for whatever reason, many readers choose not to do that.

Interesting post!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 01:22 am UTC (link)

But...I *always* always thank anyone who comments, because I do appreciate any comments I get.

Absolutely!

Sometimes I feel like people either tell me everything I write is really good because that's what they always do *or* they just don't say anything at all if they don't care for it. I would *LOVE* to know specifically what works and what doesn't, even if it's just a drabble. But...for whatever reason, many readers choose not to do that.

I have to admit to being a bit of a hypocrite. I would welcome concrit, because I do realize I have a lot of room for improvement, but I would have a very hard time giving it to someone else.

Where do you go to get unfiltered feedback?

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	noteverything 2009-07-02 01:36 am UTC (link)
	Where do you go to get unfiltered feedback? shrugs My beta? Honestly, though...I think people just don't want to tear into fic online, but it would be cool to have a place for that to happen. At least I think it would. I'd be glad to offer up my writing and ask what needs improvement. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	notreallyme10 2009-07-02 01:58 am UTC (link)
	Maybe we need a writer's workshop asylum? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	pendulumchanges 2009-07-02 02:10 am UTC (link)
	It would be cool to have an asylum where people can offer up their fic to constructive criticism. Where you can say "I wrote this drabble and not one person liked it and I really don't know why!" The first rule is you're only allowed to offer up your fic for critique if you're not going to get mad at anyone when they critique it :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	notreallyme10 2009-07-02 02:16 am UTC (link)
	And the second rule would be constructive criticism only! It could be fun. Not sure if I'd ever be brave enough to put my work up :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	pendulumchanges 2009-07-02 02:19 am UTC (link)
	It'd be cool to post something and have people critique it and then to rework it and repost it. Some people probably won't like seeing the first version or the in between stuff, but they could still enjoy the improved final product :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	notreallyme10 2009-07-02 02:20 am UTC (link)
	I hadn't even thought of that... good idea! (Reply to this) (Parent)

noteverything
2009-07-02 04:07 am UTC (link)

I'm for this. I'm willing to put up anything I've written...I honestly don't have any problems with that at all. But if no one else does, it'll be kind of...odd.

I do understand NOT leaving criticism on something...I tend to avoid it too. I figure most times it's better to just move on and not say anything. But, occasionally, I do have to question things. I really try to do it kindly. It's a fine line I guess and probably no one really *believes* me when I say I'd LOVE feedback of any kind.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 04:33 am UTC (link)

I'm with you! We could be kind of odd together. :)

But seriously, I know I don't have much under my belt, and Lord knows I don't really think I'm any kind of real writer, but I have found something I enjoy. I also know I'm never going to take a writing class or anything like that, so if I want to improve, and I really do, this seems like a good way. And I know everyone here would be honest, positive and not wanky!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	noteverything 2009-07-03 03:19 am UTC (link)
	I tried it in my own journal...it's been really interesting. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-02 04:45 am UTC (link)
	This is a truly wonderful idea! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	notreallyme10 2009-07-03 12:14 am UTC (link)
	Not sure I have the energy for it... but it would be an interesting asylum to play in. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-03 12:33 am UTC (link)
	I understand! Now is not the right time for me to try something like moderating an asylum, not that I even know what that entails. Maybe once I'm more settled. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	notreallyme10 2009-07-02 01:42 am UTC (link)
	I never leave criticism... I know that if done right it's a good thing to offer up, but I just never feel right about it. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

pendulumchanges
2009-07-02 02:16 am UTC (link)

ditto... it just feel like this person went to the trouble of writing this drabble/fic/whatever and posting it and who am I to come along and say something doesn't work? If it doesn't work for me I just move along to the next post on my flist. But if people say they want real feedback then I'd be willing to give it.

Typos, broken links, spelling mistakes and that sort of thing are an exception to this rule... well, for me at least. I posted a drabble that I loved and no one told me until much later (thank you

noteverything!) that I was using "breathe" instead of "breath" and vice versa. I was so embarrassed! I wish someone had said *cough cough you're using the wrong word* I know others would feel differently about someone pointing out every typo, but they bug me a lot. Especially in drabbles. There are only 100 words to proofread. Please proofread them carefully!

And now I've gotten all off topic :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-07-02 05:01 am UTC (link)

Tweedy,

I have NEVER read something of yours that had a problem! And I believe you would like criticism.

If you were interested in an asylum for that, I think it would be best to submit stuff based on a challenge FROM that asylum. As opposed to offering up something that you've already posted all pretty and finished and received feedback for.

You have experience and not everyone leaving concrit will be as experienced as yourself. And sometimes people just "talk" if you ask them to without much to say. So I say keep your pretties safe and write something new that you've never done before and put it up for crit. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

noteverything
2009-07-03 03:18 am UTC (link)

I really would...and to that end, I didn't listen to your advice and posted a drabble asking for constructive criticism. It's been really interesting.

While I do agree that I've got a lot of experience drabbling, some people have even more experience in reading fanfic and I think even the most enthusiastic newbie can have good thoughts and suggestions...I don't know that I'd ask this sort of feedback on *everything* I post, it could be fun now and then, especially with things I feel sort of unsure about anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-07-03 04:48 am UTC (link)
	I don't know that I'd ask this sort of feedback on everything* I post, it could be fun now and then, especially with things I feel sort of unsure about anyway.* Nods Good for you. I think it's brave. (Reply to this) (Parent)

vl_redreign
2009-07-02 01:11 am UTC (link)

You did good. You did even better by understanding that the person was asking honest questions about the fic. At least, that's what I would assume, based on what you've said here.

I would ask the person to email me, and then we could discuss in detail ehat they felt the problem was. Now, you bought up a really good point. If they don't know where you're going with your story, you didn't do your job. As a writer, you can always give a little author's note about where the idea came from, but you don't want to get into too much detail. Let the reader decide where you're going. They'll tell you if you got them lost. lol

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 01:39 am UTC (link)

understanding that the person was asking honest questions about the fic

They were! They somehow picked up something in the fic that was not at all what I intended. Their feedback was absolutely from a positive, helpful place.

If they don't know where you're going with your story, you didn't do your job.

Exactly!

They'll tell you if you got them lost.

I'm almost more afraid that they won't. That they just wouldn't read anything else I wrote.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

jule1122
2009-07-02 01:21 am UTC (link)

I think you handles it very well, but if you would like more conversation with the reader email would be the best place. Trying to discuss something like that in comments may look more defensive were sending an email explaining what you were trying to do and asking for more of their thoughts sets up a dialogue. They may also have more to say and may have been more curious about some of the choices you made than critical and just not sure how to phrase it in a comment. I know sometimes I leave feedback with questions because I am curious about how the author came up with an idea or something but they rarely get answered.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	noteverything 2009-07-02 01:34 am UTC (link)
	I know sometimes I leave feedback with questions because I am curious about how the author came up with an idea or something but they rarely get answered. I'll answer!! But I guess that's sort of a moot point since you beta most of my stuff. :-) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	jule1122 2009-07-02 01:40 am UTC (link)
	That's why you are so easy to beta for (beyond your incredible writing). I never worried about holding back with my questions or concerns because I knew you understood what I was trying to do. And speaking of questions, I just sent you an email:) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	noteverything 2009-07-02 01:42 am UTC (link)
	I just answered! and I'm all excited now, too!!! (Reply to this) (Parent)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 02:49 am UTC (link)

They may also have more to say and may have been more curious about some of the choices you made than critical and just not sure how to phrase it in a comment.

I could see this happening. It might make them more comfortable and maybe more forthcoming with input.

I know sometimes I leave feedback with questions because I am curious about how the author came up with an idea or something but they rarely get answered.

This has happened to me a few times. If something were asked as a question, I would always answer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sandid
2009-07-02 02:09 am UTC (link)

First let me say I couldn't write a drabble if I had to. Or probably anything else for that matter.

I'm a professional reader. If someone would have told me seven years ago that I would love fan fic by unpublished authors I would have laughed.

It's become my passion. My problem is I don't want to hurt anyones feelings. There have been countless fics, drabbles, etc. that I've had questions about. I've never asked the questions.

Surely, it must be tough to only hear, "that was nice" or "I loved everything" all the time. Especially because those words never tell you much.

Good luck...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 03:03 am UTC (link)

Surely, it must be tough to only hear, "that was nice" or "I loved everything" all the time.

I wouldn't say it's tough. It's actually amazing to hear about something you created. Keep in mind this is all really new to me, but I literally get goosebumps. But, I don't want to discount someone who doesn't agree with the way I see something, or who just didn't get what I was trying to say, or who didn't get my cracky sense of humor.

Thank you for your input, it's nice to have a strickly reader's perspective. That has been me for a LONG time, so never say never on the writing thing! :D

And if you ever do read any of my stories again, and you do have questions, by all means, please ask them!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sandid 2009-07-02 03:08 am UTC (link)
	Ok Like you, I want to know. Should you email questions or just put them out there? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 03:39 am UTC (link)

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the gist of what I am hearing is that you as the reader should feel free to ask in the comments. And I as the writer can address them, also in the comments. But, if it goes beyond that, or it either would be more comfortable, then PM is the answer.

So long as everyone is being considerate of each others feelings and it's all done with a positive, constructive vibe I say you should just put your questions out there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	noteverything 2009-07-02 04:09 am UTC (link)
	I'm really butting in on your comments to ahaw9913, but I'd really very much appreciate your thoughts on anything I write. If you're not comfortable with giving them to me "publicly" feel free to email me. If you've been reading fanfic for seven years, you know what works and what doesn't. I could learn a lot from you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

frantic_quest
2009-07-02 03:05 am UTC (link)

I think you did/are doing the right thing. I'm fairly new like you and I still think writing fanfic is scary.

It took me over a year to post a fic and after I did I literally wanted to throw up, I was that much of a basket case about what sort of feedback I might get, but I was pleasantly surprised at the positive responses I received.

The first time a reader asked me specific questions about plot or characterization I was nervous about how to respond, but like yours, it was presented in a very positive manner, so I just explained things the best I could and hoped I did the right thing. I didn't feel defensive and I would hope that they would email or PM me if I came across that way.

I don't see much concrit in drabbles or one shots, but damn it, if I am writing a totally OOC Brian or Justin, or making a glaring beginner's boo-boo, I would want someone to tell me so I can improve and not keep making the same errors.

And yes, a good beta will usually point that out to you before you embarrass yourself totally.

As a reader, if something is really, really bad, I normally give up before the end so I don't comment. If it's good but there is just something that is a little off or confusing I would probably ask a question to get a clarification. This would usually be in a multi-chap fic though, and after enough chapters I might feel comfortable enough with the writer to ask.

I would love a writer's asylum for this fandom. There is such a tolerant, supportive group of experienced writers here already the idea of a forum like that makes me tingle.

And I think this was a terrific post BTW. I am way too shy to ever put these questions in a post, but I am right there with you, and have found the responses you've received so far to be really helpful.

You are made of awesome!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-02 04:07 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I'm a total nervous Nelly when I am posting something, although, like you I have found everyone to be supportive!

I have had excellent betas! I completely trust them to tell me if I am veering off track! I take responsibility for any and all mistakes and writing flaws! OMG, you should see the ones I have scraped or have put aside to rework! ACK!

I would love a writer's asylum for this fandom.

Me too. It sound like the perfect place for new writers to learn.

I'm glad you feel the post has been helpful. I do, too! Everyone has been very generous with their input, and I am feeling much more confident that I know how to deal with critique in my feedback. Plus, we were able to discuss more open feedback. That is a definite win!

And you know what? I think you are pretty damn awesome, too!

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	frantic_quest 2009-07-02 04:26 am UTC (link)
	OMG, you should see the ones I have scraped or have put aside to rework! ACK! Oh, believe me I have a few pathetic misfits lingering on my hard drive. See, a writer's asylum would be a great place to post something like that and ask for help and advice. And please email or PM me anytime about writing or whatever!! Later! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-02 04:39 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, mine are more like the hideously deformed troll children living under the stairs! :D And please email or PM me anytime about writing or whatever!! Thanks, I will take you up on that! G'night! (Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-07-02 04:50 am UTC (link)

If it was someone I respect I would absolutely take the opportunity to pick their brain! That's a gift, for sure. If it's someone just normal, I might ask them, I might not, it depends on my mood and their tone and what I wrote--in other words, how much I care at the time (that day, that hour etc). I think what you did sounds fine. But if you feel you missed out on a free lesson, then yes, you should have emailed them or something.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-02 10:21 pm UTC (link)
	If it was someone I respect I would absolutely take the opportunity to pick their brain! That's a gift, for sure. I know! I really should have! I won't let the opportunity pass me by again! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-07-03 04:46 am UTC (link)
	Well, it's easy to SAY what to do. It's harder to think on your feet!! You did fine, cutie pie. Have I ever told you that you remind me of me sometimes? You do. Isn't that funny? I have never had that before. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

ahaw9913
2009-07-04 12:41 am UTC (link)

Have I ever told you that you remind me of me sometimes?

Wow! Thank you! I take that as a hell of a compliment! Cause, I think you are just about as sweet and funny and charming as folks come!

I don't really think of myself as any of those things, but I do share your obvious love of this fandom and pleasure in playing with everyone here!

Maybe we were separated at birth!!! :D

Or we are like Brian and Ted in this icon! You get to be Brian, cause I am SO Ted! :D

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-07-04 02:36 am UTC (link)
	Hee. I will take Brian any ol' time. <333333333333333333333333333333 Thank you for the lovely compliments to me! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	colleen2328 2009-07-02 02:10 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you all for a civilized and instructive discussion. I learned so much and am going to rec this community to some friends who are looking for this kind of supportive dialogue. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-02 10:27 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you, Colleen. Everyone here really is amazing! They are an incredibly friendly, open and supportive group! Your friends would be more than welcome! (Reply to this) (Parent)

xie_xie_xie
2009-07-03 10:28 pm UTC (link)

I haven't read anyone's comments, just jumped in to make mine. I never, ever explain anything. As an author, the story is its own "explanation." It either worked or it didn't. Sometimes a reader doesn't get it because we failed to do what we meant to do, and sometimes it's because of the failure of the reader. It's helpful to me to have some way to know which it is in a given case, but usually I can tell from the comment itself. A lot of people have been sort of trained by bad!fic to expect certain things, and when my fic doesn't deliver those things, they are sometimes bewildered. Surely, they think to themselves, the person trying to destroy Brian's financial empire will be Craig? Surely the reason Justin is acting secretive is that he's afraid Brian will find out about Kip Thomas/Ethan is blackmailing him/he's being stalked by Cody Bell? Etc.

In those cases I just thank them for reading and ignore their questions.

If someone does notice some inconsistency or continuity error or some other problem my betas and I missed, then I thank them very much and I correct it. But I still never, ever, ever ever explain anything.

Okay, now I'll go see what others said. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-07 02:37 am UTC (link)
	Sorry, for the late response. I somehow missed this comment. Thank you for the input! (Reply to this) (Parent)

amelialourdes
2009-07-06 05:39 pm UTC (link)

I've been a long time reader (of fanfic) and occasional writer and I definitely feel strongly about constructive criticism. I respect an author who takes it and handles in a positive way like you do. I think that everyone has room for improvement and those who don't or think they don't need it are just kidding themselves. But, I have found that within fanfic concrit is kind of a touchy subject. I've encountered people who live vicariously through their fiction and therefore will jump all over you if you think about making a suggestion (like finding a beta to help that person with basic writing errors). I've encountered people like you who accept concrit and want to know how to respond in a way that doesn't sound defensive. I've encountered people who just ignore those comments.

I think that you did the right thing. I would never take something to PMs unless it becomes really long winded and an all out discussion. I think that others can learn from what's said by reading and I wouldn't want to keep that private.

As a writer, I want to know how I can improve. That said, I don't want to necessarily change things in a story. If someone tells me my sentence structure is off, or a got a tone of voice wrong (or it sounds strange), or I spelled a word wrong - I'm all for fixing it. If my story's about someone getting lost in the woods and they want me to have them get lost on the ocean instead ... no. Sorry. That's part of the plot and I'm not changing that.

Hope that that made sense!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ahaw9913 2009-07-07 02:41 am UTC (link)
	It made perfect sense! I think that others can learn from what's said by reading and I wouldn't want to keep that private. This is a good point! Thanks so much for giving me/us your perspective! (Reply to this) (Parent)