InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Here comes trouble."

Christy (fun_demented) wrote in qaf_coffeeclub,
@ 2009-06-11 16:48:00

Entry tags:

episode: 406, s4

Episode 406
I put something in my journal that I've cross-posted here. The reason I have put it up for further discussion is that vl_redreign raised very convincing arguments against my statement. I am not changing my mind, but I really enjoy and cherish her insights and would welcome yours as well. My view of this scene will definitely be more balanced and enriched now.

Here's what I had posted about the tragically timed fight between Debbie and Vic:

Debbie was gracious about Vic leaving, and then allowing him to set-up house before coming by to see it. He could have invited her over for dinner before the party, no matter how much he understandably was averse to it; after finally feeling free and trying to start anew. So he fucked up. He had a party first. She found out. Fine. He tried to make up with her, she wasn't having it. Debbie was wrong, there. Fine, whatever. But when she went over there to apologize, Vic acted like a royal ass. It really was both of their faults, but Vic was the worst one.

Here's the conversation between Red and me

(Post a new comment)

	colleen2328 2009-06-11 07:09 pm UTC (link)
	I'm with Red. Good point about 301. I'd never seen that parallel before. But I agree with you about Justin's seduction skills. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-11 07:10 pm UTC (link)
	:D (Reply to this) (Parent)

firehead30
2009-06-11 08:53 pm UTC (link)

And I always thought Debbie was completely out of line. Selfish and floundering without someone to care for or do for and since that is all she knows and her relationship with Vic was on hiatus, she turned into a complete bitch.

I always thought Vic and Rodney were trying to create a home based on their relationship rather than their relationship with Debbie. She had given them no privacy.

Yes, I do think he should have invited Debbie over. But I also think he was reveling in having his own life back. Yes, he was a bit selfish, but I completely understood.

Debbie was completely and entirely out of line with her comments about wiping his ass. It was as if her caring of him had become a debt he could never repay and she was holding the note over his head.

This arc was probably when I liked Debbie the least.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-11 09:42 pm UTC (link)
	What you've said here, really hits a strong cord in me. I am going to rewatch it. I am thinking I might have thought of it as a debt, too. Which is so wrong. Hm. Checkity checks myself (Reply to this) (Parent)

	vl_redreign 2009-06-11 10:12 pm UTC (link)
	Agreed. Almost like her immediate dislike of Ben when she found out he was positive. But I forgave her part of that, because it was her son, and she knew intimately the dangers inherent there. Still, it was Michael's choice, not hers. And him standing up to her was very brave. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

firehead30
2009-06-11 10:41 pm UTC (link)

I completely understood her reaction with Michael and Ben. While I would hope I would not react that way, it was from her heart.

What happened between her and Vic was all about her, and her sense of loss for her place in the lives of those she loved, and Vic got the brunt of it.

I cheered Micheal when he stood up to her on that one:-)Michael is very very brave, there are reasons why he is Ben's super hero:-)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	vl_redreign 2009-06-11 10:47 pm UTC (link)
	Check out my new icon!!! Ben's got mad skillz, yo! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	firehead30 2009-06-11 11:09 pm UTC (link)
	Your icon is completely rocking my socks! Ben the Gangsta! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	vl_redreign 2009-06-11 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	kari77 made it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-06-11 11:30 pm UTC (link)

I keep thinking about this. I do still think that Vic could have taken care of her a little at this point. She was all alone. And I don't think she was just being selfish. I think she felt lost. I think she felt unloved and alone. I am made at Vic I guess for her, because she can't be. She has to forgive him and be mad at herself because he left.

I just think. I am best friends with my sister. After all our fights. By my standards, Vic was the one that needed to step up and offer the bigger apology. I think Debbie just wanted to hear he missed her. He loved her and appreciated her. I think she gave him all the space in the world once he asked for it.

I understand where Vic was coming from. I have been Vic, in the sense where I've been the one who's wrong. Because I just HAVE to live my life and do what I need to do. But I guess in years I've come to decide taking care of family is more important than freedom.

Debbie needed a little comfort. Vic was not the right place to get it. But I think there are some small kindnesses he could have offered that he just *wouldn't* just *didn't*

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-11 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	The word 'left' here means 'died'. I just realized it could seem I meant left the home. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-06-11 11:32 pm UTC (link)
	And when I say I am mad at Vic. I am only mad at him during that episode. I let it go after that. I just ache so much for Debbie. I just. Maybe I am being blind, because I hurt so much for her. I don't know. (Reply to this) (Parent)

outlander
2009-06-12 08:20 am UTC (link)

While I think when Deb loses it she crosses some lines, I am with you on this one.

Would it have killed him to have her over at some point?
They are so important to each other, have been through so much together, I was always surprised he couldn't share a small part of this with her. Not meaning that he shouldn't go, but it was so harsh. Just because your life moves forward it doesn't mean you have to leave those who cared about you in the dust. Especially family.

Knowing my family, they would have just barged in.
And been pissed off ala Debbie if they weren't the first.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

fun_demented
2009-06-12 12:14 pm UTC (link)

Thank God. I was starting to think something was wrong with me. Isnt' that amazing how that can happen?

Knowing my family, they would have just barged in.
And been pissed off ala Debbie if they weren't the first.

TOTALLY! My sister is my best friend and it would just be completely FREAKY if she had a party without me. But fine. I'd deal if that happened. But strangers seeing the house before me because they were straight couples and I am just measly old queer and single me? Not. on.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	outlander 2009-06-12 09:01 pm UTC (link)
	We can hang out here in the overbearing-but-love-them-to-death family corner. snort And LOVE the Little Prince quote. cries with you (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-13 01:25 am UTC (link)
	Sets up a cozy sitting place for us Hands you the usual margarita Sips (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-06-13 01:26 am UTC (link)
	Oh, and yes the Little Prince. Cries too (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-06-12 12:19 pm UTC (link)
	P.S. I think of the story The Little Prince. We are responsible not only for the ones we love, but also for the ones who love us. Cries for Deb (Reply to this) (Parent)

happier_bunny
2009-06-12 06:37 pm UTC (link)

I missed most of this discussion (and my brain is fried in case I make no sense) but I did skim your comments /w Red.

I have to say that I think that they were both wrong. However, Vic knew how hard it was when he left Debbie's. Anyone could see the brave front she was putting up and I knew he did when he left the bear. Adorable.

So, he really should have had Deb over first, like he said, especially when she was asking and stuff. I get that all this was new and exciting for Vic, but honestly, Debbie was there for him...always, he could have given her that respect.

However, after the party, Deb went over there with a chip on her shoulder and Vic was defensive (probably because he knew he screwed up). They both said, hurtful, even hateful things, but honestly, Debbie was very very harsh in her FU before leaving. I'm not sure that I'd label that as being more at fault, because there's plenty of that to go around, but she was really nasty at the end of that argument.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

happier_bunny
2009-06-12 06:42 pm UTC (link)

Insert this after: given her that respect. He knows his sister and how important something like being the first over would be to her. I'm not at all saying he owed her, I don't think family works that way, but you treat each other how you want to be treated and at that point, Deb had really been trying to give him what he needed. Throwing her a bone to have her over for coffee would have been so simple.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-13 01:24 am UTC (link)
	I have to agree with what you've said. I think the only difference is that Vic was the one who had the power, not Deb. So in my mind he had the most responsibility and therefore was the most wrong. But I really can't argue anything you said. It all makes perfect sense. (Reply to this) (Parent)

girloftheburbs
2009-06-12 09:52 pm UTC (link)

I always took this argument as just something the two siblings did; they had terrible arguments but always made up eventually. I remember the fight they had when Debbie said she didn't want Michael to date Ben because of the HIV; Vic was bent out of shape about this and he and Debbie didn't speak for a day or so, but they made up. With Vic living somewhere else and having Rodney with him, he wasn't alone and perhaps forgot how it would feel for Debbie, who was in that big house all by herself, (which she probably never had been). I didn't really blame either one, and with Vic dying before they could make up made it so terrible.

There was a scene I loved, though, which came out of Debbie's guilt, was when she recreated the Christmas party for Vic's memory. Seeing Emmett shoot up wide awake when he heard the blasting Christmas carol was hilarious!! When he came downstairs and said he went to bed and it was February, how long had he been asleep... Priceless. Poor Debbie, she was suffering so badly, and I really felt for her because there was no resolution but to just accept that Vic knew she loved him and that she didn't really mean what she'd said. Hey, maybe Brian could have put in a good word for her since he "saw" Vic later in the season. ;) j/k

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-06-13 01:22 am UTC (link)
	I love your comment and I think it all makes sense. And: Seeing Emmett shoot up wide awake when he heard the blasting Christmas carol was hilarious!! AGREED. One of the funniest things in the entire series. I love it. (Reply to this) (Parent)