InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "i am not the one!"

Christy (fun_demented) wrote in qaf_coffeeclub,
@ 2009-05-05 22:43:00

Entry tags:

brian, episode 301, s3

Brian 301
While watching the scene in 301 where Brian punches Michael, until tonight, I'd never thought about the fact that Brian was physically abused while growing up. I imagine Brian was as surprised as everybody else that he hit Michael. And that must have been pretty difficult for Brian to process. Any thoughts?

Ads by Project Wonderful! Your ad here, right now: $0

(Post a new comment)

merkuria
2009-05-06 01:08 am UTC (link)

I actually am not sure if Brian was abused physically. Except for the occassional push and shove, I don't think Jack hit him, or Joan, I always had a feeling the abuse was psychological. In canon Joan tells Brian she protected him, let Jack beat her instead of Brian, and he does not contradict her, so there's some canon to back that.

The surprise at hitting Michael might have been more because it was Michael, of all people.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

fun_demented
2009-05-06 01:21 am UTC (link)

Interesting! I know Brian never said it explicitly, but I always imagined he was hit by his father. Perhaps not. I know the mom says she protected Brian, but I perceive Joan as an unreliable narrator (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O56-unreliablenarrator.html). But that's not necessarily an accurate interpretation on my part. I do find your take interesting and it certainly makes sense.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

merkuria
2009-05-06 02:45 am UTC (link)

Yes, of course Joan is not to be too trusted, but I rely here more on Brian not telling her it was bullshit - I just think he would if what she said was not true, he certainly had no qualms about calling his sister's bullshit after the funeral.
Also, Joan strikes me as the martyr type, "sacrificing" herself for the child, in her catholic mind protecting him from the father, and failing to see the myriad ways in which the family dynamics ruined him.

But of course, the question of whether Brian was physically abused remains a matter of interpretation, but I always felt he never was abused in this way. His incredible pride in his body and the free and unashamed manner in which he uses it for pleasure also makes me think he was not hit. Although I am hardly an expert on the subject.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

darla-isabelle.livejournal.com
2009-05-06 11:57 am UTC (link)

I'm not sure Brian's silence is a confirmation of Joan's claims here, considering the situation he might not want to antagonize her further or maybe he's heard the speech before and doesn't see the point or he could just be speechless; anyway, I didn't get the impression that he agrees with her view of the past.

Concerning Joan's martyrdom, from what we can see I'd say it consists mostly of whining about how bad she is and the rest of the world not appreciating her - her husband never being home and calling her "the warden", her son neglecting her, no one coming to visit her, I'm sure she has some complains about Claire as well - it's more that she likes to see herself in the martyr role than actually "sacrificing" for something. (Maybe she sees having Brian in the first place as a sacrifice.) I'm not saying she never stopped Jack from hitting Brian, but I think that she gave it up before Brian was really old enough to remember it in favor of drowning her sorrows in prayer and wine.

I agree with you on the physical abuse though. Jack probably didn't put much effort into holding back when he was angry, but I think for the most part the abuse consisted of absence, desinterest, verbal put-downs and a general lack of love, warmth and security from both his parents.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	merkuria 2009-05-06 12:09 pm UTC (link)
	but I think for the most part the abuse consisted of absence, desinterest, verbal put-downs and a general lack of love, warmth and security from both his parents YES! That's what I have always felt, and we'll never really know about Joan. God, what a horrible family.... (Reply to this) (Parent)

circadia
2009-05-06 01:25 am UTC (link)

I thought there was never like a 100% agreement on exactly how Brian was abused, as we're never given a definite answer in canon (at least, that I can recall)
If so, though, I definitely agree he'd be surprised and then a little disturbed by it, as it seems he's not physically violent with anyone else in his life, so for him to actually hit someone has got to be a big deal, especially if he put up with it growing up and probably decided he wanted to be nothing like his father.

Also, to comment on this, I scanned through 301 and ended up having to watch it all, including the ending, with sad, broken Brian and the Justin-hooker. And now I am sad and a little broken from having to watch that end scene *sniffle*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 01:29 am UTC (link)
	Cradles you That scene is so sad and broken. I am all achey from watching it too. It simply creeped me out for a long time, now it just breaks my heart. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

circadia
2009-05-06 01:36 am UTC (link)

Thanks.
Of course, the music adds to it. I couldn't figure out why this one made me so sad when it came up on my mp3 player, and I realize it's because I keep mixing up the two Sigur Ros songs featured on the show - which are two VERY different points in the BJ relationship.

It creeped me out at first, too. But actually it came to break me just this time: he takes off his pants so slow, touches the kid's hair, his back. Sigh. *cuddles Brian*

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 01:47 am UTC (link)
	I know. It's so sad. We must be on the same wave length, because this is the first time it broke my heart like this. I am usually just so squicked. This time I watched it and took it all in and just broke and cried for Brian. So sad. And I was sad for the hustler, too, actually. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	circadia 2009-05-08 06:19 pm UTC (link)
	jule1122 just wrote a series of angsty drabbles, and the first one leads up to this scene so well, it made me hurt all over again. What made you so sad for the hustler? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-08 06:34 pm UTC (link)
	That he's a hustler. That's all. I remember when Justin was almost used at the Sap's party. And how this boy didn't escape that fate. You know? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	circadia 2009-05-10 11:14 pm UTC (link)
	Indeed. I just had this moment where I thought - oh wow, maybe Brian got the hustler from Sap? I think that would be too gross, though. But yeah...it's just a sad scene, for everyone :( sigh Thankfully B/J happiness is just 6 episodes away! :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	opal11 2009-05-06 06:53 am UTC (link)
	you know in epi 209 when joan comes to the loft and brings brian a chocolate cake..she says to him cant we be close like we once were..that has always bothered me..because it seems such a contridiction from everything else that comes out of her mouth (Reply to this) (Thread)

	darla-isabelle.livejournal.com 2009-05-06 11:24 am UTC (link)
	I agree, this seems like another piece of revisionist history. I think that there was a time when Brian was little when he still wanted to please his parents, so he went to church with his mother without complaining or stuff like that, that Joan now remembers as them being close, whereas Brian didn't experience it like that at all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

kari77
2009-05-06 11:44 am UTC (link)

Interesting discussion. :)

When Brian went to see his father to tell him that he's gay, Jack raises his hand against Brian, and Brian flinches in a way that always made me think that it was a move he had to make quite often as a kid.
Or maybe it was just an instinctive reaction, who knows.

Brian was drunk, hurt, in an emotional turmoil after seeing Justin AND Michael throwing the things he said in his face. I don't want to excuse him for hitting Michael. It was just too much to bear at that moment.
And I agree, Brian seemed as surprised as everyone that he actually hit his best friend. Partly maybe because of the physical abuse (that we can only assume but is more than plausible) he lived through as a child.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 11:47 am UTC (link)
	I agree it's most plausible, though left deliberately ambiguous. The irony in the episode sited by some folks above is that Joan said she protected Brian, when in fact, that episode was about Brian protecting Joan from the truth, letting her have her piece of mind; however based in myth it was. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	kari77 2009-05-06 01:41 pm UTC (link)
	It's heartbreaking how kids who where abused (physically or verbally), still try to protect their parents even as grown-ups. She could reduce him to a little boy in an instant. It was only in 410 when he really stood up and freed himself from her. pets Brian (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 02:01 pm UTC (link)
	Pets Brian, too (Reply to this) (Parent)

lavieneko
2009-05-06 04:21 pm UTC (link)

I think he was probably physically abused to some extent. It may not have been "frequent" but even being hit once by a parent is traumatizing. Witnessing your mother being beat or even just seeing evidence of that as a child is almost as bad as being abused yourself, and we do hear from Joan that she was hurt.

However, considering Brian's family is Irish Catholic and his parents were both alcoholics, odds are he was physically abused to SOME extent. (No offense to Irish Catholics. XD Just a generalization you'd see on TV.)

Brian is ODDLY non-violent. You'd think a person like him would throw a few more punches. Especially considering he BUILT A BOMB TO BLOW UP HIS HIGH SCHOOL... you'd think he'd PUNCH people, at least back when he was in high school. But Michael says Brian's NEVER hit him before, and is SHOCKED.

I'd say the REASON he's so non-violent is because of the abuse he lived through. Of course, push someone enough and anyone will lash out. XD

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 05:14 pm UTC (link)
	I would have to agree with every single thing you just said. (Reply to this) (Parent)

frantic_quest
2009-05-06 05:27 pm UTC (link)

I do think Brian was both physically and emotionally abused by Jack. In S1, not sure of eppy number but it's in the "asskisser" scene where Brian & Justin are shaving next to each other and Brian is helping Justin study.

J says something like: "I'm sure your dad loves you, maybe he just doesn't know how to show it."

B answers: "He knew how to show it, especially after he'd had a few."

To me, that's compelling enough to convince me that Jack smacked Brian around when he drank, which probably became more frequent as time passed, and his resentment of Brian grew. I also think that while Joan may have thought she protected Brian by taking punches for him, I'd bet there were times she wasn't around that Jack hit Brian.

There's a lot more I could say about this subject, but the original topic was more specific to the 301 punch. The fact that Brian lost control at the party and punched Mikey just underlines how messed up he was at Justin's leaving him for Ethan, as we continually see as early S3 progresses. That punch shocked the shit out of everyone, especially Brian.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, I agree. (Reply to this) (Parent)

xie_xie_xie
2009-05-06 05:40 pm UTC (link)

I'm catching up on my flist in the most chaotic way possible, just kind of jumping all over the place!

I agree with those who have said we don't have DEFINITE "proof" one way or the other, but that we're given a number of cues that Brian was physically abused as well as emotionally/verbally.

The fact that Brian doesn't call Joan on her saying she took the blows for her kids makes perfect sense to me -- that whole episode is about the things Brian DOES NOT SAY to his mother to shove her face in reality.

The fact that flinches when Jack raises a hand to him, the fact that Brian pulls his punch and hits the box or wall (?) instead of his father, what someone else called his being "oddly non-violent" -- despite the bad!fic fandon of revenge-seeking Brian, after he disables Chris Hobbes, he never again lifts a finger against him -- and Hobbes literally nearly killed Justin in front of Brian. He goes into paralysis when Craig is beating him, too. And that statement about his father showing how he felt when he'd had a few.

None of those things by themselves proves anything, but taken as a whole, they're pretty compelling evidence to me that we're supposed to believe Brian was smacked around as a kid.

Some people distinguish between "physical abuse" and pushes, a single blow, a smack across the face, but I don't in any case, but particularly here. When they're part of a pattern, combined with verbal abuse, and coupled with the fact that we know Jack beat Joan, those things are absolutely physical abuse, full stop. Maybe Brian wasn't systematically beaten throughout his childhood -- IMO he'd be even more fucked up than he is if that were the case -- but he was certainly knocked around and verbally abused.

Someone else mentioned the scene in S2 when Joan brings over the cake, and how odd it was that Joan mentioned when she and Brian used to be close. I'm sure they were. I think Joan probably did love Brian, and show him love, in her own way. There's no way whe'd be capable of empathic bonds and love if he hadn't had love as a child, however dysfunctional. And Brian is an extremely, deeply loving man, capable of profound connections with others and great loyalty.

So I think that his mother, before her alcoholism progressed, probably did show love to Brian. Which is almost certainly why he had such trouble accepting that he really shouldn't keep giving her another chance -- and yet even after she accused him of molesting his nephew, he nearly gives her another chance in S4.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 05:52 pm UTC (link)
	I LOVE your meta. Excellent. Insightful and thorough. I totally agree with you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-05-06 05:56 pm UTC (link)

Oh, but my original question (because I was going off of the premise that Brian was physically abuse) was how do you think his past might have effected him in processing that he just hit Michael? Or something like that. It was just something I was thinking about.

What I liked about what you wrote up there was that he froze when Craig was attacking him. Very true, never thought about that. He also froze when Ben assaulted him.

I am thinking the only thing that could have made Brian desperate enough to hit Michael was being in crowd (so he couldn't say to Michael whatever he might in private) and Michael talking about the bashing and saying Brian should left Justin lying there. Just as it happened.

Which, suddenly became crystal clear to me that part of that has to do with Brian's own history. And I wanted to play around in those thoughts, or see if anyone had some thoughts to share on it.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

xie_xie_xie
2009-05-06 06:05 pm UTC (link)

Brian was PTSDing when he hit Michael... Michael invoked the bashing. It triggered Brian. He wasn't really himself when he did it.

I think it was the single worst thing Brian ever did in this series, a sign of how deeply disturbed he was psychically by what happened to and with Justin, and so much worse than any words Michael might have said to him that the constant fandom refrain that Michael "deserved" to be hit or that what Michael did was worse than what Brian did completely freaks me out.

It's like they think all that was wrong with Brian was that his woobie left him and his best fwend was mean to him.

I consider 301/opening scene of 302 Brian to be almost in the grip of a psychotic break, he was so completely gutted. And it wasn't because Justin left him; it was PTSD related to the bashing and his childhood.

Nothing else makes sense to me. Nothing else explains the hustler thing, which was FUCKING SCARY, or the depth of Brian's delusion he was fucking Justin in the opening scene of 302 or his own complete shock at realizing how deep the delusion was -- not to mention hitting Michael like that.

And nothing else IMO does justice to Brian, a man of tremendous moral principles, great self-discipline, and huge heart. To think he would just hit Michael because he was IRRITATED or ANGERED infuriates me. He could only have done that if it went much deeper than that. And I think we're clearly shown that it did.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

fun_demented
2009-05-06 06:21 pm UTC (link)

Well, I don't have the experience with fandom that you do, so that aside (because it doesn't make sense to me).

I agree here. I really wasn't struck by how serious it was for Brian to hit Michael until last night. I knew it was because Michael invoked the bashing, but I didn't take it to heart and I didn't include in my viewing experience, my knowledge that Brian was himself abused.

It the profundity of the moment really effected me last night.

About the hustler. I am usually show grossed out about it I don't have enough focus to really feel it and experience it as a viewer. But last night I did and it BROKE MY HEART. Brian is so lost and no one but the viewer and Brian knows it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

fun_demented
2009-05-06 06:36 pm UTC (link)

And it wasn't because Justin left him; it was PTSD related to the bashing and his childhood.

It's both. If Brian wasn't broken, he could certainly withstand Justin leaving, but he'd still miss him and be sad. But he was broken and Justin leaving had a terrible effect on Brian's well being. For one reason, I am sure Brian felt damaged and that, that damage had something to do with Justin leaving, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:39 pm UTC (link)
	Okay, Bunny just said what you're saying here, but in a way I could understand better. Yes, that's totally right. You have helped to put it all together in a way I hadn't before. http://asylums.insanejournal.com/qaf_coffeeclub/171510.html?thread=2178294#t2178294 (Reply to this) (Parent)

	happier_bunny 2009-05-06 06:06 pm UTC (link)
	I think he does say it in season five to Ted, "my father was an abusive drunk" - when someone says that, I'm sure they're referring to physical abuse of some kind. It was HORRIFYING that Brian went there for BRIAN. It was definitely a sign that he'd been very hurt and traumatized by Justin's leaving. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	happier_bunny 2009-05-06 06:08 pm UTC (link)
	Also, it's a HUGE sign of how much the bashing traumatized him. It happened to both of them in many ways. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:09 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. I totally was thinking that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:11 pm UTC (link)
	I agree. Brian doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would tell someone his father was abusive, what he meant was verbally abusive. Not to diminish verbal abuse, but I that's my take on Brian. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

happier_bunny
2009-05-06 06:15 pm UTC (link)

You think, Brian meant his father was verbally abusive?

Well, I think there's PLENTY of other clues that lead to conclusion that there was physical violence at the hands of his father. It was his mother that was emotionally abusive.

One example is his reaction to Craig hitting Justin. Then there's the episode when his dad dies (doesn't he talk about how horrible the bowling was) and when he tells his dad that he's gay, he flinches when he thinks his dad is going to hit him.

Sorry, but it all leads to physical abuse to me. I'm sure there was PLENTY of verbal abuse too but that wasn't all.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

fun_demented
2009-05-06 06:25 pm UTC (link)

You think, Brian meant his father was verbally abusive?

NO!!!!!!! I think his father was physically abusive for sure.

I was saying that there's no way that (were Brian verbally abused and not physically abused) there's no way he'd tell Ted his father was abusive. That would be so OOC. The only way Brian WOULD say his father was abusive is if his father put his hands on him.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	happier_bunny 2009-05-06 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	Gotchya. ;) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:31 pm UTC (link)
	Phew. LOL! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:28 pm UTC (link)
	By the way, I am cracking up. I made this post with the assumption that Brian is physically abused, asking how people think that impacted Brian's reaction to or impulsion to hitting Michael. The question as to whether Brian was physically abused or not was totally not brought up by me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	happier_bunny 2009-05-06 06:33 pm UTC (link)
	I only saw the first comment ( I didn't read any others and thought I should address it). But ultimately, Brian's PTSD was triggered by 1. the reenactment of the bashing at the RAGE party, 2. Justin's leaving and 3. Michael's words. /the end. LOL (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	YES!!!1 THANK YOU. You put it all together for me. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:30 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, I see the problem. I left out the work "if" in my comment up there, so it looked like I was saying something different. Headdesk (Reply to this) (Parent)

	fun_demented 2009-05-06 06:12 pm UTC (link)
	And I agree that it was probably horrifying for Brian that he did that. I never thought before. It was a new realization, which is what sparked the post. I totally agree. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	merkuria 2009-05-08 11:24 am UTC (link)
	oops, sorry to have sort of hijacked the post with my comment and have it go off topic, never meant for that to happen :D for what it's worth, the discussion opened my eyes to some stuff, so at least I got something out of it! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	fun_demented 2009-05-08 12:01 pm UTC (link)
	OH! I never mind folks going off topic if it's stil QAF! It was an appropriate question. My post was full of an assumption. I just wrote that comment up there, because I was getting confused! LOL. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)