InsaneJournal

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netlagd (netlagd) wrote in qaf_coffeeclub,
@ 2009-01-27 03:46:00

Current location:	bed, reading instead of sleeping
Entry tags:	bjfic, lost fic

So what about fic that isn't there any more?
While this question came to me about QAF fanfic it could apply to all fanfic.

I mistakenly spelled "triciaqaf" "trishaqaf" and ended up nearly having a heart attack when I thought that all of triciaqaf's fic was no longer on livejournal.

WTF?! (of course I can hear you say, "that's what bookmarks are for you idiot!", but I digress)

Occasionally, I troll along on getithere to see what's up in the world of what was that fic? land.

And a recent post, along with my "triciaqaf" "trishaqaf" mix up made me think.

There was a inquiry about the illusive and mystical Moondance fic by Shirley.

In the post, someone had tracked down the fic that is no longer found online anywhere.
People requested that the person who had a copy of the fic send it to them.

So here's the question, for fics that are no longer online due to any cause - withdrawn by the author, archive no longer in existance, website taken down, user no longer on LJ/IJ,

is it wrong to download copies of your favorite fics so as not to lose them?

is it wrong to share copies of a fic that is no longer online/posted with others?

if it isn't wrong to share, would it be wrong to create an archive of "lost" fics?

and if that isn't wrong, why not create a category on the archive sites for lost fics - i.e. not authored by the poster?

it is a slippery slope...

ETA: For the sake of argument, let's say the fic was not taken down or withdrawn by the author on purpose. Let's look at other scenarios where the author decided not to continue to pay for a website, or a journal and it naturally disappeared as a result.

Feel free to comment on authors pulling their fic. However, based on the responses, it is evident that people respect the right of the author to pull their fic and as such wouldn't be comfortable perpetuating something that the author expressly doesn't want handed out.

ETA 2: the debate on copyright has been retired - feel free to comment on all else, that may relate to QAF here.

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merkuria
2009-01-27 04:15 am UTC (link)

That's an interesting question, especially as just recently an lj user whose fiction I consider to be some of the best I've read in QaF deleted her journal, and while I understand her reasons, the bottom line is that I am left without the fiction I defnitely wanted to re-read.

I can't see how saving a fic to one's computer for private use could be considered wrong. Sharing it with others might pose a few more doubts, storing it anywhere, especially if the author took it down, is more questionable still, and as you said, it's a slippery slope from there.

I myself am going to archive the selected fics I'd hate to lose, just in case. Because things happen.

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	happier_bunny 2009-01-27 12:19 pm UTC (link)
	Who deleted their journal and are you sure his/her fics aren't somewhere else? I agree, storing to your computer and sharing it via email with friends seems ok to me but archiving it somewhere else, without permission, could cause problems. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

netlagd
2009-01-27 01:12 pm UTC (link)

I don't know about IJ, but I do know that the subject of Shirley and Moon Dance (the fic in question) has been raised at least three or four times in the past couple of years on Getithere.

The normal answer was that she doesn't write any longer, and the site where it was published at no longer exists and no one has a copy of it.

However, this last time the question for the fic was asked, someone had found it.

There were no less than 40 request to have the story emailed to people reading the entry.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

zaipixie
2009-01-27 04:39 am UTC (link)

Interesting question.

On one hand there's the respect for the authors wishes when fics are taken down for what ever reason. And re posting is a web woven of hurt feelings and balancing acts on the very edge of what's legal and what's not.

On the other it's the publicness of Internet. How much control can you have over things you post for public viewing in the first place?

Can this be compared to taken a picture of a public artwork for personal use and showing the pic to friends? Will the picture you took still be yours to show others if the artwork is sold to a private collector?

You're right. It's a slippery slope.

(Reply to this)

	quinn222 2009-01-27 05:08 am UTC (link)
	I have no problem with people saving my fic to their computers. I'd be seriously pissed off if someone reposted it to a website or archive. I thought long and hard before removing my fics and it wasn't an easy decision but it was a necessary one that I made to protect myself. (Reply to this)

dancing_serpent
2009-01-27 05:23 am UTC (link)

I think it's perfectly all right to save a copy of a fic to your harddrive. I see no difference to say, printing it out to read it. I definitely do so - I have several thousands of fic saved to re-read time and again.

Redistribution is another case. I think it's okay in certain cases. Single cases. One friend asking: "Hey, do you still have a copy of that fic? I totally loved it and now it's down."
But I wouldn't send a copy of fic to an entire list of people who all say "Oh, me too, plz!"

I know that people think different and that there are several yahoo groups solely dedicated to providing readers with fic that has been taken down. I'm not okay with this, both as a reader and an author.

But yeah, can of worms, all that...

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starinthesky
2009-01-27 05:23 am UTC (link)

It's an interesting question. I recently emailed a ficlet to people who wanted it after a request on getithere and wasn't 100% comfortable about it. I always wonder about why people take fic down. I don't see much wrong with saving fic for personal use, so that I will have a copy if it gets taken down or deleted for whatever reason, the far more ambiguous area is sending this fic to others or reposting.

I usually tend to believe that saving and emailing a fic is (usually) quite small scale and that many authors writing fanfic and posting it on the internet nowadays should perhaps be prepared that it might happen, unless of course they have explicitly stated that they don't want their fic shared. For authors it should be something of a caveat that once something is in the public domain that it may well stay there!

Reposting, on the other hand, puts stories that were taken down by author back up in the public domain for anyone to read at anytime, and is as such a much larger scale then having a story saved on a computer for personal use. This I don't think is right and unless the re-poster has the express permission of the author it's not okay, and totally defeats the purpose of having the fic taken down in the first place!

I don't really have any proper answers and as authors remove their fic for a myriad of reasons, I imagine that they would also vary in what they would be comfortable or happy seeing happen with that fic once they have taken it out of the public domain.

It's a very interesting question, and one I had been thinking over in the past month.

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	xie_xie_xie 2009-01-27 01:58 pm UTC (link)
	"Public domain" does not mean "publically accessible." It's a specific legal term that means the copyright no longer exists and the work can be freely copied or used by anyone for any purpose. Simply posting something on the internet or anywhere else doesn't change the copyright issue. (Reply to this) (Parent)

noteverything
2009-01-27 07:11 am UTC (link)

I think that even if it is "wrong," people will save fics and share them, whether they're still available online or not. Posting them publicly might not happen, but I think that privately, it will happen a LOT.

Also, and this probably isn't the most popular viewpoint, I probably wouldn't lose a *whole* lot of sleep if a fic I really loved was pulled and I didn't have access to it anymore. Now, that doesn't mean thinking that I'll never read teacher!fic or preacher!fic or My Favorite Damn Disease again doesn't cause my heart to hurt a little, but I figure I've still got my QaF dvd's and that's *really* the bottom line for me.

Like I said, most people probably would not agree! :D

(Reply to this)

plucc07
2009-01-27 08:24 am UTC (link)

Hmmm--this is a problem, considering how some view their writings. If you wrote and published a book, could you then demand that all copies be returned to you when you decide, for whatever reason, that you don't want it public anymore?
If I have a copy and lend it out, is this an infringement on your rights? I understand sites being taken down or allowed to die a natural death, but frankly, I fail to understand why writers would pull their stories and demand they not be shared once they have put them out there.

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xie_xie_xie
2009-01-27 10:35 am UTC (link)

Legally, you're fine if you save a single copy of something for your own use. You're probably okay if you make a few copies for a reading club, so perhaps distrubuting in email is okay. Those are both "fair use," as is distrubuting a copy in a classroom for educational purposes and a small number of other things that fall into the category of "fair use."

You have no legal right to republish someone's work online or in print for general access. That's copying and you don't have the RIGHT to COPY... that's what copyright is.

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netlagd
2009-01-27 11:00 am UTC (link)

playing devil's advocate here...

To gain permission or right to copy, in a normal publishing scenario, you would contact publisher, or if the rights have reverted to the author, the author or the author's estate if you wanted to re-publish something that was previously published but is no longer in print.

However, given the blind nature of journals and fanfic, the fic you read is not necessarily written by someone you can contact to gain permission - people use aliases, email addresses change, there is very little ability to contact the individual. Yes, that doesn't give you the right to go and republish other people's property, but we aren't in a normal publishing environment.

I have a flist friend who is reading 'zines written years ago - never even made it to the Internet (it was still a twinkle in Al Gore's eye - and yes, I am joking).

From what she's told me fans exchange these freely - but through traditional forms of print.

I can see if there was some profiting from the activity that it would be wrong, but if your intent is not to profit from it, what really is the difference from sharing by sending the fic out via 100 emails v. setting up a website where those 100 people can come and pick it up for themselves.

Which begs the bigger question - why do archives exist?

What if someone writes fics, but doesn't have the computer savvy to go through the hoops of an archive site to archive their work - or doesn't know that archives exist?

Perhaps the better thing to do is to better publicize that the archives exist and encourage people to use them.

And then... what about the Way Back machine - http://www.archive.org
Have you ever tried to get something pulled or corrected?
It's impossible.

When I worked for a major publishing house, in the early days of widespread internet use, we moved our offices from a certain location on Madison Ave to another location. Because documents on line had our old address and phone number, we were constantly trying to get the proper information out to correct it. But like a legal document, you can't go back and change things posted on the internet previously to fix things like addresses and phone numbers.

A friend of mine used to have a favorite quote "The Internet is written in sand." In this case, it might be written in stone.

Sand or stone - some things disappear, and other things never leave. Too bad they can't pull all the Mpreg... but that's another debate.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

xie_xie_xie
2009-01-27 11:20 am UTC (link)

There are lots and lots of legal gray areas related to digital technology and the Internet.

The right of someone to control whether or not their work is posted on the Internet on someone else's site is not one of them.

The Wayback Machine doesn't publish anything. It's basically a library of things that are published. If you want your old page removed from the archive, you simply request it be removed. A page can't be "EDITED" because the archive didn't publish it. YOU, the website owner, published it in the past.

Wayback Machine honors all requests to not archive a site if it's made by the original site owner/publisher.

I think you're confounding many different issues here. The only one that's relevant to your original question is that unless it falls into the category of fair use, the copyright holder has the right to say who can copy her work, and how it can be published.

As to saying you can't go back to change things published on the Internet, of course you can -- if YOU published them. I edit my website all the time.

But if I write an article about someone and it's in my local paper or a magazine or a book, and it includes contact info that later changes, well, you're right; it can't be changed. Same with a magazine article on the Internet. That's a very good reason why we should have portable contact info at all times, as a reflection of the realities of the digital age.

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happier_bunny
2009-01-27 12:23 pm UTC (link)

I can see if there was some profiting from the activity that it would be wrong, but if your intent is not to profit from it, what really is the difference from sharing by sending the fic out via 100 emails v. setting up a website where those 100 people can come and pick it up for themselves.

There's a HUGE difference. When the original stuff was being sent around, that was the norm and that's what the author ok'd. It's not like that anymore and publishing someone's work, without their permission, is wrong. It might not technically be illegal, I'm not sure as I haven't done any research on the issue, BUT it's wrong morally and within the framework of appropriate fandom etiquette.

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netlagd
2009-01-27 01:03 pm UTC (link)

BUT it's wrong morally and within the framework of appropriate fandom etiquette.

Ah! yes, well there it is.

The mores of what is acceptable in the point in time.

So the question is, is an archive active publishing?

By the conversation here, it appears it is.

My thought is that an archive is like a library - filled with published works, it itself is the not publisher. Again the digital medium to quote Xie is full of grey areas.

Don't you think it is interesting that writing is the only art where it is not acceptable to reveal lost work?

Think about it - sketches of Michelangelo or Picasso that come to surface after they are dead - whose to say they ever wanted them to be made public.

And what about music? How many post-mortem CDs of Tupac Shakur have been published - and whose to say that he ever wanted those tracks released?

In both cases, it is widely acceptable. Of couse, it might be a thing that it is because they are dead it is acceptable.

Again, just being the devil's advocate here.

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	happier_bunny 2009-01-27 01:06 pm UTC (link)
	I think in this instance, an archive isn't just a library if the work has been removed from public use. As for the rest, I have no idea, I haven't given it any thought and we're well out of the realm of qaf_coffeeclub. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	netlagd 2009-01-27 01:14 pm UTC (link)
	okay, I'll stop this portion of the debate (Reply to this) (Parent)

xie_xie_xie
2009-01-27 02:31 pm UTC (link)

Don't you think it is interesting that writing is the only art where it is not acceptable to reveal lost work?

Think about it - sketches of Michelangelo or Picasso that come to surface after they are dead - whose to say they ever wanted them to be made public.

And what about music? How many post-mortem CDs of Tupac Shakur have been published - and whose to say that he ever wanted those tracks released?

In both cases, it is widely acceptable. Of couse, it might be a thing that it is because they are dead it is acceptable.

You're missing the point. The copyright holder of the work -- writing, paintings, music -- OWNS THEM and can control their distribution. If I own them and die, they go to my estate and my inheritor then owns them and controls them. A painter or author who wants to prevent publication of something they own after their death needs either to destory it or tie it up legally in such a way that it will survive them, and hope no one ever successfully challenges whatever trust or other arrangement they've made.

Writing is not any different in this way from any other act of tangible creation.

After 99 years, with a few exceptions, there is no longer any copyright protection on anything -- it expires. Those works are now in the public domain.

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zortrana
2009-01-27 01:03 pm UTC (link)

First of all, anyone who puts anything on the Internet needs to realize that once it is out there, it is out there, and right or wrong there's no controlling where it ends up or how it gets used and there's no getting it back. If you can't be sort of zen about that, you should think twice or three times or 1,432,798 times before you put anything up. Or be okay with living in a perpetual state of rage. And be sure to reconsider that run for the Presidency.
With that said, I don't think there is anything wrong with downloading stuff you like for your personal use. I don't think, ethically speaking, you should archive or repost someone's work without their permission. It's not very nice. It's going to happen anyway because people aren't always nice or ethical. That's not going to change anytime soon either.
I took Copyright Law in the Dark Ages, so I'm not going to venture any sort of legal opinion. I do know someone I could ask, & I might do that. But quite frankly, I would hate to see the Internet heavily regulated, governed, monitored, or anything like that. A little anarchy and chaos is a good thing and necessary to a free world.

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	fun_demented 2009-01-27 03:02 pm UTC (link)
	Wow! This is very well stated! I am impressed! (Reply to this) (Parent)

minuet9
2009-01-27 04:47 pm UTC (link)

It has always surprised me that people who write on the internet seem to think they can 'unwrite' things.
To me that is like having a letter published in a newspaper, then demanding that everyone burn that edition.
As for posting it on a site - well I thought writers wrote to be read. If authors don't want things read, don't write them in public. Sure, if I post someone else's story on my webspace with my name on it - then I'm stealing. If I post their story and I've edited it then I've breached their rights.
But to get up in arms because their story is posted somewhere and they've decided they don't want anyone to read it anymore because they've gone off the fandom or decided they can write better now or whatever - that's insane. Sure they can ask you to take it down, the same as they can ask a library to pull their book, but the library is under no obligation to do so, it owns the book and the space in which it is stored.
Copyright infringement is about using the work uncredited, or to make profit neither of which are happening in the archive sense being talked about here.
Personally I'd be thrilled people were even reading my writing, let alone wanting it to live on.

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happier_bunny
2009-01-27 05:26 pm UTC (link)

I have to disagree.

Actually the library only owns the book because they paid for it. It's not the same thing.

This isn't really about copyright law as I don't really think this is an issue that has been decided by a court as far as fanfiction goes. I do think that it's morally wrong to post someone's complete fanfic somewhere else without their permission and it's definitely against etiquette.

However, my original fic is mine and no one has the right to post it somewhere else. It's stealing plain and simple whether they make $ from it or not. Copyright infringement doesn't just have to do with making a profit or using one's work without crediting it.

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	happier_bunny 2009-01-27 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	I should add: it's mine and I only have the right to decide where it gets published whether it's in print or on the internet. (Reply to this) (Parent)

xie_xie_xie
2009-01-27 07:27 pm UTC (link)

Legally, however, what you said is not how it works.

Copyright vests in a creative work the minute it's fixed in tangible form. In other words, the minute I finish my story, even if I've just scrawled it in a notebook, it's copyrighted to me. I own it, I control it, it's mine like my shoes are mine. LEGALLY no one can do anything with it without my permission, except for those exemptions in U.S. copyright law known as "fair use."

Simply publishing it anywhere -- Web, magazine, fanzine, newspaper -- doesn't change the copyright. Copyright can only be given to someone else in writing. Even the newspaper that pays me for my columns doesn't own them; I do. They have purchased only serial publication rights. They have no legal right to give someone else permission to use my article elsewhere, and the only rights they have to my work are the ones I gave them IN WRITING. And they PAID FOR THE ARTICLE! And yet, I still own it.

If I write a story, legally, I own it. Unless I give permission for someone else to post it on a website, they legally can't do it.

The issue of whether or not it's "legal" to write fanfiction at all is a completely separate one. Some authors, producers etc love and encourage fanfic, and those works are being written with the blessing of the canon authors, and those works absolutely belong to the authors of them.

But let's say I was writing fic in a fandom where the canon author expressly forbid the writing of fanfic, say, Anne Rice and the "Interview with a Vampire" books. Even if she sued me and won, the remedy would be that I'd have to withdraw my story from public, not that it would SUDDENLY BELONG TO EVERYONE.

Creative works belong to their creators from the moment they're fixed in tangible form until 99 years have passed. Copyright infringement is not about "using the work uncredited, or to make profit..."; it is quite literally about the "right to copy," and that is what it controls.

Fair use allows certain exemptions to that, such as making one copy for individual use, sharing things in an academic setting, etc. But it definitely does not allow you to take the whole work without my express permission and publish it anywhere else, and giving credit doesn't change that.

Now, should we as writers be grateful our work is being read? I'm very grateful for my readers, certainly, but I want to say where my work is posted. I need to be able to control that. I might need to go in and fix something. I might not like how it displays at the new site. I might be listed in company with fiction I find objectionable. The website owner might have policies I don't agree with about commenting -- they might try to silence people, or they might be right wing assholes, or whatever, but it's my right whether or not I want my work to draw traffic to their site.

As an author, I would hope no one would ever post one of my stories anywhere. They're mine. I'm happy to share them, of course -- it's why I write. But where they're published is up to me, because I hold the copyright, because I wrote them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	zortrana 2009-01-27 09:14 pm UTC (link)
	It's a very unrealistic attitude to think you can "undo" what has been done on the Internet. I'm certainly not arguing that people who have been wronged shouldn't complain and take it up with the wrongdoer or to demand an ethical standard of behavior, but to be all shocked and amazed is to be in denial of reality! (Reply to this) (Parent)

vl_redreign
2009-01-27 07:29 pm UTC (link)

Okay, but wasn't the question basically this:

Is it okay to copy a fic that you like to your harddrive? Is it okay to pass it along to a friend?

I say yes to both. Would I pass it along to 500 people I don't know? No. Would I send it to people I know? Yes.

Is it wrong to repost someone else's fic on an archive? Yes. The problem there is that it's going under your name instead of the author, and even if you put that "this was written by so-and-so", it's still stealing, as far as I'm concerned.

That said, I have two or three fics on an Italian site that are posted under the translator's name, as well as my own, and this person asked me beforehand, showed me the site, then showed me the translation of it. It had my name on it as the writer, and therefore I had no issue. She is known as the translator there, and the readers know that she does this, so no one gets the impression that it's her work. Again, this was with my permission. That is the only time it would be okay to do this...with the author's permission.

But of course, this has been said. Just wanted to throw that out there. It would be nice if authors would at least tell people that they're pulling fic before the fact, instead of after. That kind of sucks, because there's no way to save it unless the author has a hardcopy that they're willing to share. And thank god I started doing just that a few months ago!

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