InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "Don't call me Squeakyboy."

The Elf ½ (elfwreck) wrote in metametameta,
@ 2008-03-21 22:48:00

Welcome to MetaMetaMeta
At Escapade,

slashpine and I were talking about different kinds of meta. We came up with at least three:

Canon Meta: Discussions about the source material--contemplations, observations, analyses. Noticing "hey, all the girls in this show are mindless idiots who look good in bikinis." Or "Mr. Heroic woudn't be able to get very far without Minor Sidekick #3, who seems to do all the actual work." Or "I bet there's a huge underground trade in pixie dust; anyone wanna guess the going market rate?" Or wondering, "would the world be better if the villain were in charge?" or the old favorite, "what if HeroDude #1 and HeroDude #2 were abducted by aliens, locked in small room together, and told they must perform bizarre acts of extreme perversion to earn their freedom?"

Umm. Recs of fics exploring that last concept are always welcome. But back to the meta. Canon Meta is the kind

mind_over_meta was created to explore.

Fandom Meta: Discussions of fandom, of how we relate to canon, of how canon reflects issues in the real world, and so on. Comparisons of racism in several shows, exploring what makes a good slash pairing and why some couples are rarepairs, why weasleycest and wincest were accepted with barely a blink, similarities between Spock, Snape, and House, similarities between the writing styles of Yarbro, Rice, and Hamilton, polls about what kind of fic people like or don't like. These are the topics that get the most coverage at

meta_roundup and

metafandom.

Meta Meta: the other kind. The discussions of why we find certain topics interesting and others not. Self-analysis, rather than canon or cross-canon analysis. Trends in fandom, both fic/art/vids/other creations and meta-discussion. Talking about how to talk about some subjects. The changing semantics we use to define and describe ourselves. "What I've learned from fandom" posts. How fandom relates to the "real" world, or at least, how it relates to our non-fannish lives. These can be insightful or painful; they run the gamut from uplifting and joyful, and uncomfortable and hostile. These are the ones that, when they get away from "how much I love fandom" topics, someone may step in and announce, "ur harshin' my squee!"

metametameta was created to encourage all of these kinds of discussions. (Well, actually, that's not true.

metametameta was created because the permanent account sale was almost over, and

slashpine needed a name for the comm. She picked one and figured she'd find a definition for it later. But at Escapade, we talked about the need to be aware of different types or "levels" of meta, and a need for a meta comm on IJ--one for discussions, not just links--and how this comm could be used for that.)

And she apparently decided I should share the blame if it didn't work, so she inflicted maintainer powerz on me.

So, umm... hi. Welcome. We have no idea what we're doing here. Maybe we'll come up with meta challenges like weekly fic challenges. Maybe we'll come up with community rules at some point. So far, this is pretty much an anarchy, with the obligatory journaling protocol: put big stuff behind a cut tag, don't link to or quote locked stuff without permission, try to stick within the general topic ("fandom metadiscussion" of some sort), and by the way, this isn't

fandom_wank; heated debate is fine; hostile wankage should occur elsewhere.

(Post a new comment)

skuf
2008-03-22 07:57 am UTC (link)

Recs of fics exploring that last concept are always welcome
Even if you were joking, I was going to look up a Superman/Batman ficrec for you, but ljseek seems to be down, and you've probably read it, anyways (if you read S/B) :o)

Fandom Meta - Meta Meta
In every day use I call both kinds Fandom Meta, but technically, sure there is a difference (I'd still put some of your Meta Meta under Fandom Meta, though - like "trends in fandom" is fandom meta to me).

(Also: You've implemented simple comment pages at

metametameta. thank you <3 !)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	ciaan 2008-03-22 01:53 pm UTC (link)
	In every day use I call both kinds Fandom Meta Ha ha, sv_ledger haz brainwashed me. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	skuf 2008-03-22 03:20 pm UTC (link)
	And that was the plan all along, muahahHAHAHAH! (Reply to this) (Parent)

elfwreck
2008-03-22 02:22 pm UTC (link)

I think of them both as types of fandom meta; I just wanted to distinguish between meta about fanac (fic, art, comms, conventions, and so on) and the more philosophical/psychological introspective meta wherein we explore what makes us fans and "what we should do as fans" and so on.

I agree that the line between them is pretty blurry; I haven't got any really solid definitions.

slashpine and I had discussed that there's a difference, that we should be able to describe a category for "favorite kinks/least favorite squicks" polls and "best pairings for angst fic" discussions separately from "if you write House like he appears in canon, does that make you a misogynist? Or a misogyny supporter?" and "does fanfic have an obligation to use condoms in its sex scenes?"

The stuff that makes some fans say "I'm tired of all this academic talk; I just wanna enjoy the hot men gettin' it on together."

(I'd love a good S/B rec. I don't normally read comic book anything, because there's so damn much of it to wade through, and I haven't read canon in years and so I can't follow anything based on the newer characters or situations.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	skuf 2008-03-22 05:49 pm UTC (link)
	Dude, now it's totally bugging me that I can't find/remember that fic - just because it fit your description so perfectly. Or, rather well. Or, it reminded me of that fic. And my Google-fu is completely escaping me - gahhh, do I really have to apply for membership of sv_inquiry to find this? Tsk. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	skuf 2008-03-22 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	TA-DAA: http://azurine.livejournal.com/16044.html, preens. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: simple comment pages

elfwreck
2008-03-22 02:47 pm UTC (link)

I'm endlessly annoyed that they aren't the default; I set up a journal style in limited time and didn't mess with any of the default settings. (OTOH, I had turned off simple comment pages on my IJ for a while, because I hated all the IJ options; until Snakeling posted her Greasemonkey/Stylish tweaking notes, I decided to live with forcing my overbright color scheme on readers. I'm so happy there's the Worksafe site scheme now.)

I'm open to suggestions about layouts or other comm details.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

iulia_linnea
2008-03-22 08:23 am UTC (link)

I've always been very much a lurker in meta circles and haven't yet gone out of my way to find meta comms here at IJ, so I was really pleased to see

svartalfur mention this comm. I like how inclusive you're planning to be in terms of the sorts of meta you'll allow here, too, because it means I'll be more likely to participate in discussions. Good luck with the comm; I can't wait to see it develop! :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)

elfwreck
2008-03-22 02:33 pm UTC (link)

I'm hoping to encourage "canon meta" to mostly be posted at

mind_over_meta; while it's welcome, I don't want to step on their toes, and wanted this mainly as a place for more abstract meta.

I don't think either LJ or IJ has had a "general meta" community;

metafandom has been serving as a hub for that, but there's been no comm to post meta in. One of the topics that came up at Escapade is needing (or wanting) a "neutral space" to discuss some of the more controversial topics, and while comms aren't entirely neutral (after all, they're still managed by someone who can inflict her biases on the readers), they are (or can be) less proprietary than a personal journal.

I think some of the more heated debates get troublesome because they're in individual journals; sometimes people feel attacked by harsh comments in their personal journal. And some people who have great topics have anon comments screened (which is reasonable, but slows down discussion); others f'lock to keep them out of fandom_wank, but would be happy to have more open discussion--like, a locked post in a comm that anyone can join.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

yourlibrarian
2008-03-22 05:16 pm UTC (link)

I like your definitions :> And I certainly don't mind if people post canon meta over here, I'd like to see it get posted somewhere. Either people aren't writing much of it at IJ or

meta_roundup isn't picking it up either because I haven't been seeing it. And as you point out, the types of canon meta

metafandom includes usually have broader applicability than for a single fandom. I was thinking of something that would be open to everything from an episode review to character and ship manifestos, especially since a lot of fandoms here don't have enough participants to have meta communities of their own.

I'm glad there's a more general meta community for posting as well, I think it's needed. For example I really wanted to see discussion continue at fandomdebate over at LJ but its use seems to have been limited.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	elfwreck 2008-03-22 06:19 pm UTC (link)
	runs over to mind_over_meta* to steal some interests* I'm editing the profile some today. (Reply to this) (Parent)

iulia_linnea
2008-03-22 08:26 pm UTC (link)

You raise a good point about people getting riled up in spaces that aren't set up to be neutral/for everyone. I mainly lurk because I'm not particularly comfortable with my own ability to analyze things and don't want to say anything pointless in the face of the brilliance of others. ;) I need to get over that. Of course, I do tend to look at fic-writing as a way to express one's take on various points of meta . . . .

*friends

mind_over_meta*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	akuma_river 2008-03-22 09:27 am UTC (link)
	Interesting. I'm new to the ideas of what meta is... So I found this, sort of enlightening. (Reply to this)

	kabal42 2008-03-22 03:03 pm UTC (link)
	I'd never thought of the distinctions between types of meta before, it's a very interesting read, this. I'm hoping this comm will get a lot of activity, meta is always interesting. So here's to that! (Reply to this)

	carpet_diemon 2008-03-23 05:38 am UTC (link)
	I must admit, I've always considered "meta" meta sort of the navel contemplation of fandom. Although, I have to admit that I've enjoyed much of what I've seen of the meta friday meta-thon. I always consider everything else "fandom" meta because, if a person's not in the fandom, chances are he/she isn't really thinking much of canon either. (Reply to this)